Stalin has killed his millions, and Mao his tens of millions. REALLY?

[JW Insider]

This topic might be more appropriate outside the JW Public Club here, but I have a tendency to keep tying things back to our own "JW" take on prophecy, honesty, etc.

Obviously, the Scripture almost referenced in the title above is one of three that state:

• (1 Samuel 29:5) . . ., ‘Saul has struck down his thousands, and David [has killed] his tens of thousands’

But can we honestly repeat the similar assessment about Stalin and Mao? Not picking on anyone in particular because all of us who have been around a while, have seen these claims 100 times, especially since the 1980's. Most recently, I saw a version of this claim in a topic started by Arauna about "Agenda 21" where she included the following statement, in part:

On 12/9/2018 at 4:03 AM, Arauna said:

Communism together with atheism brought 40 million deaths in Russia, 100 million under Mao se Tung etc etc

If it's true, fine, but if it turns out to be a falsehood, perhaps we should not repeat it, no matter how well it seems to fits into a U.S. agenda to constantly create "bad" news stories about Russia and China. Nor, as JWs, should we repeat it no matter how well it fits our own teaching ministry about man's inhumanity to man, and the inability of humans to rule themselves. Those latter points are still true, but the supposed specific "facts" we sometimes use in order to back up these teachings are not necessarily true. 

So let's look at what we actually know about Russia and China.

[JW Insider]

With respect to Stalin, most of the supposed "facts" that made him such a monster were "documented" by Timothy Snyder in "Bloodlands." However, if anyone has ever tried to look up any one of the many accusations supposedly documented, they will find that all of them lead to dead ends. It's a collection of outrageous claims from sources that don't actually exist, sources that are just persons quoting sources that don't actually exist, or sources that merely quote a person making a claim with nothing to back it up.  A further look into the "sources" will show that the primary source of most of these claims started with Ukrainian Nazis who were very anti-Semitic and wanted Stalin to look worse than Hitler. In fact, you can trace an anti-Semitic thread even through the sources in the US and elsewhere who were most active in promoting the Ukrainian propaganda during the Cold War.

One problem with these sources is that they completely contradict earlier U.S. and even other anti-U.S.S.R. sources that were contemporary with Stalin, and even for many years after. (For ease of discussion I will likely say Russia in place of USSR.)

What one really needs to do is look at all the specific ways in which people come up with numbers, and watch historically how these numbers were doubled and tripled, and quadrupled over time. Then watch how various pieces of evidence were manufactured out of nothing, or made to contradict the original researchers who had looked into the same evidence. Even those historians and researchers who were looking for terrible news to undermine Stalin and looked everywhere for all possible means to make him look as bad as possible, even these persons would not have dreamed of the numbers that were later attributed to them and their research.

So how does one come up with a number like 40,000,000?

Usually one does not blame Stalin directly for all 40,000,000. The quote from above blames 40,000,000 deaths on "atheism and communism." Stalin's purges, the famine he supposedly created, sickness, and war deaths are usually included. The population of Russia around 1937 was likely 160 million. So we are claiming that upwards of 25% of the population was killed by Stalin, either directly or indirectly, due to communist rule, oppression, errors, etc.

Of course, including the military deaths from fighting Hitler makes no consistent sense because any other nation who lost much lower numbers fighting Hitler were considered heroic by other Western nations. Russia itself may have lost about 10,000,000 in direct military deaths of soldiers. Wartime deaths often encompass twice that of soldiers themselves due to wartime hardships, and Russia has admitted between 20,000,000 and 27,000,000 million due in some way to WW2.

So we can probably already see the basis for some of the propaganda against USSR/Russia/Stalin.

People usually add the idea that communism created massive famine, and that Stalin murdered millions in "purges."

More to come on the purges and famines soon . . .  

[Arauna]

Sorry - I was sloppy.  I should have said 'communism' or officially atheist / totalitarian governments instead of just mentioning Stalin.

How many deaths there really were we can debate about forever but one thing is sure - one should not whitewash what happened there. 

It was state sponsored killing -   deliberate and with no accountability. And it was going on all the time.  People disappeared and were never seen again.  Conservative estimates are 20 million.  But it is a staggering number - even by  conservative estimates. It proves that communistic type governments or atheist governments are deadly.   Within a short time after Darwin we find such staggering numbers killed in a relatively short time compared to the centuries before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Paraphrased, Josef Stalin once said " The death of one man is a tragedy ... the death of a million men is a statistic.".

[JW Insider]

11 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Paraphrased, Josef Stalin once said " The death of one man is a tragedy ... the death of a million men is a statistic.".

And, naturally, if one tries to trace this quote back to Stalin, they find that it wasn't attributed to him until 1981, and even then it was: "When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

The buildup from thousands to one-hundred-thousand, to millions, to tens of millions, to forty-million, as some kind of "fact," hadn't really happened until propagandists under Thatcher's and Reagan's era. And the repetition of this supposed quote served Western propaganda interests very well.

Note especially the Churchill connection in the way that  Wikiquotes was able to trace it, as Churchill connections come up multiple times in much anti-Stalin propaganda. Another "strain" of evidence that crops up again here and in other places, already mentioned above, is the idea of taking known "German" and/or "Nazi" ideas and re-attributing them to Stalin. (Many people who completely deny the Holocaust are still happy to report that Stalin killed 40,000,000.) The rest of this post is an excerpt copied from https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

• In Портрет тирана (1981) (Portrait of a Tyrant),[1] Soviet historian Anton Antonov-Ovseyenko attributes the following version to Stalin: "When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics." This is the alleged response of Stalin during the 1943 Tehran conference when Churchill objected to an early opening of a second front in France.
• In her review "Mustering Most Memorable Quips" of Konstantin Dushenko's 1997 Dictionary of Modern Quotations (Словарь современных цитат: 4300 ходячих цитат и выражений ХХ века, их источники, авторы, датировка), Julia Solovyova states: "Russian historians have no record of the lines, 'Death of one man is a tragedy. Death of a million is a statistic,' commonly attributed by English-language dictionaries to Josef Stalin." [2]
• This quotation may originate from "Französischer Witz" (1925) by Kurt Tucholsky: "Darauf sagt ein Diplomat vom Quai d'Orsay: «Der Krieg? Ich kann das nicht so schrecklich finden! Der Tod eines Menschen: das ist eine Katastrophe. Hunderttausend Tote: das ist eine Statistik!»" ("To which a Quai d'Orsay diplomat replies: «The war? I can't find it so terrible! The death of one man: that is a catastrophe. One hundred thousand deaths: that is a statistic!»")  [added by JWI: Since 1855, the French Ministry for Europe and Foreign Affairs was located in Paris at the Quai d'Orsay from where its diplomats worked. Note here.]
• Another possible source or intermediary may be the concluding words of chapter 8 of the 1956 novel The Black Obelisk by Erich Maria Remarque: "Aber das ist wohl so, weil ein einzelner immer der Tod ist — und zwei Millionen immer nur eine Statistik." ("But probably the reason is that one dead man is death—and two million are only a statistic." 1958 Crest Book reprint)
• Mary Soames (daughter of Churchill) claims to have overheard Stalin deliver a variant of the quote in immediate postwar Berlin (Remembrance Sunday Andrew Marr interview BBC 2011)
• See also Jean Rostand, Thoughts of a Biologist, 1939: "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
• In an interview given for the 1983 three-part documentary Der Prozeß by Norddeutscher Rundfunk on the Third Majdanek trial, Simon Wiesenthal attributes the quote to the unpublished auto-biography of Adolf Eichmann. According to Wiesenthal, Eichmann had been asked by another member of the Reich Main Security Office during WWII what they should answer would they be questioned after the war about the millions of dead Jews they were responsible for, to which Eichmann according to his own testimony had replied with the quote.

[JW Insider]

On 12/13/2018 at 3:50 PM, Arauna said:

It was state sponsored killing -   deliberate and with no accountability. And it was going on all the time.  People disappeared and were never seen again.  Conservative estimates are 20 million.

There is no evidence of this. There is always evidence of wicked, evil governments, of course, and there is always evidence of abuse of power. But the idea that there was anything close to 20 million deaths through deliberate state-sponsored killing with no accountability has no evidence to back it up.

Before looking at the more probable numbers again, the background of the policies that promoted these damning numbers should be looked at. The primary goal of course is to make Western-leaning countries condemn communist and socialist governments. We "Westerners" (French, German, British, Italian, American, Australian, etc.) can always extol the theoretical virtues of communism, socialism, and social democracy, but we have been trained to deny that such programs, in practice, can ever truly result in anything but chaos and death.

In fact, the Western foreign policy leaders in the United States become positively scared and weak-kneed when they hear anything positive about a socialist country improving the overall state of their economy. If more people are being treated fairly and being pulled out of famine and poverty, the US runs scared. The US and other imperialist nations had probably contributed the most in creating the bad and exploitative economic situation in those countries in the first place. Why do you think the US is quick to try to crush small to medium-sized countries that have no economic power and no real effect on the US? Why crush Grenada, Faulkland Islands, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Laos? Why sabotage Venezuala, Chile, Cuba?

Sometimes the reason is clearly admitted by officials. Sometimes it comes through loud and clear in leaked documents. But following WW2, internal state department documents, included the following reasons for some of these interventions and US led terrorism. For example here is the documentation for why we had to crush Guatemala according to a U.S. State Department official in 1954:

• "Guatemala has become an increasing threat to the stability of Honduras and El Salvador. Its agrarian reform is a powerful propaganda weapon: its broad social program of aiding the workers and peasants in a victorious struggle against the upper classes and large foreign enterprises has a strong appeal to the populations of Central American neighbors where similar conditions prevail."

Notice that the threat is that workers and peasants were successful and victorious in agrarian reform and the threat is that they were able to set a good example. Their democratic experiment had to be met with military invasion because, as the US admitted:

• "social and economic programs of the elected government met the aspirations" [of labor and peasantry and] "inspired the loyalty and conformed to the self-interest of most politically conscience Guatemalans."

There are many more such examples of trying to crush and sabotage any state that succeeds at any kind of democracy that doesn't conform to US or Western interests. If even a small threat of a good example that is working to lift more people out of poverty, increase employment, increase health care, increase education, it must be crushed and sabotaged. If the country is too large, the alternative is repeated propaganda.

This could even lead to a better understanding of why mainstream US and UK news outlets were running anti-Russia stories every two weeks or so since Trump's and Theresa May's election. But there is now more news of the strength and stability of China's economy and this "threat of good example" has required that mainstream media be fed anti-China stories about every two weeks for several months now. Since they are coming out better in the trade/tariff "war" for now, I wouldn't be surprised to see new anti-China stories every week for a while.

And many of these stories have been shown to be without real evidence. The so-called total surveillance in China is nowhere near the level of total surveillance in the United States for example. The ratio of political prisoners is nowhere near the number in the United States. When Apple is caught stealing technology from Chinese smartphones, the US counters with a huge story about an unprovable Chinese data breach, or some other diversion. China steals technology from the US too, of course, but the problem is that it's becoming harder to make these cases against them when China reaches specific levels of technology well before the US: e.g., artificial intelligence levels, robotics, quantum computing and quantum communication, etc.

The idea that Chinese can't travel abroad without specific "political" permission, the idea that millions of Muslims are in "concentration camps," or that they are invading Africa as a colonial imperialist military power, and many other such rumors have been foisted in a highly exaggerated manner upon the US and UK and other Western audiences, often discovered with fake evidence and fake witnesses. (Some have been caught.) -- In fact, on the China/Africa situation, even John Bolton admitted that the real problem was that China was treating these countries in such a way that the countries were beginning to side with China against the practices of the United States in those countries.

Russia and China have made huge mistakes to be sure. But if we want to be honest and truthful we also have to be careful not to repeat things that are most likely untruths, even if we want to believe them, and they make perfect sense to our world view.

[Arauna]

The Russian government were covering up their atrocities - this is why it is so hard to determine how many really died.  Even if people are wicked - they still try to cover up what they are doing because somehow they know it is wrong....

Do not be misled......  this kind of power in the hands of few together with the philosophy that the death of few is for the greater good - is satanic.  This new world order speech looks similar.... this is why it is much more insidious than we expect.  The far left youth in America is talking this way. Because I am vigilant I notice it immediately.  Have you seen what Ms Cortez has been saying? This is an indication of the thought of the new generation.

Use it  but do not trust Wiki - the pedia.  It is edited by scholars who come from these universities which are pushing the gender engineering agenda.  I have seen history rewritten when the agenda changes.   A good example is UNESCO - see how they are rewriting history to suit their agenda.  In South Africa, the history has also been rewritten.  I lived it - I know what is true and false. 

Similarly, the scholars at all major universities are saying there is a wonderful religion of "peace". Hence, all the killers who are committing a real genocide in North Africa and middle east against Christians (large percentages of Christians are not getting refugee status and are being killed - but nothing in the news about a genocide) are called isolated cases by people who are mentally ill.  I know the religion and the history (I did my homework) .....I 'know' the university scholars are rewriting the 1400 years of war history.  ( Note: I hate the religious ideology of this religion - not the people......  I love the people but feel extremely sad to see them exploited by a bad mental state and the lies they are indoctrinated with). Fortunately there are the odd few who become JW but they all have a terrible time from family and a lot of suffering. 

I live in a socialist Europe and I see how and when socialism works..... Communism is much different - it is extreme socialism - you do not want to live under it. There is a trend now to whitewash the history of communism. Why?  It is underestimated by the West and it is getting a better reputation...... Why?

So despite the death tolls - this philosophy is back in another, more acceptable form.......And it was carefully engineered back! 

Perestroika was a short aberration.  The Frankfort school left Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School) and came to USA during the second world war. Its ideas were taken up by the French and changed to the new post modern way of thinking. This new way of thinking is "rebranded" communism but much more dangerous......the French revolution and the Russian revolution comes to mind.  The second phase of both revolutions killed many people.

Why is this new philosophy so appealing to all students, colors of people and genders?  It promises total equality, dignity and acceptance.  Why are they so militant about it?  It teaches that social revolution is good for the greater good of all.  Communalism (the new philosophy of Agenda 21) fits in with this like a glove. This philosophy has  been undermining the west since the sexual revolution of the sixties.

I know this is not going to work.  They will call 'peace' when they get the major part of the agenda done.... and then bring in the morals that all will have to adhere to - ONE human religion which accepts all creeds and all religions (and morals) and one may not protest it.  If you do not cooperate and preach your own religion - big problems for you!!

With surveillance capabilities now available and already in operation - there is nothing they cannot do.

This is how I see this unfolding...... Bible prophecy being fulfilled - exactly to the letter.    When one watches TV and sees the indoctrinated youth then one gets an idea what is lying ahead.  

These riots in France started with the elderly and spread to others as they are sick of the social injustices of the governments who are only telling the news they are filtering.  Rapes, no-go zones, attacks, daily mentally sick people are killing others with knives... People are already afraid of the future and the new citizens have all the rights. 

No matter how much they protest - behind the scenes the plan is going ahead as governments have committed to the agenda (Agenda 2030 is on internet too!) and the new migration compact which guarantees the rights of immigrants at financial expense and the rights of its citizens. (godly justice? - I call it human justice.....) 

This is my take on the events happening.  I could be wrong.... but I am not taken in by this new diabolical philosophy.   

I believe that all people will be equal under Jehovah - but it is a loving and willing process...... not forced on people.  It is a willingness to share at expense of self and yes - it will be a form of communalism - but loyalty to Jehovah and is principals will make people cooperate unselfishly to get the earth back to its previous condition.  No-one will tell others what to do.  The elders will be facilitators, inform and ask us to cooperate. explain the reasons. Unselfish love is no part of any human philosophy - only in the teachings of Christ.

(So this Agenda 21 sounds wonderful!  it will not meet Jehovah's standards and will bring the great tribulation.)

The 144000 will oversee from heaven but society here will be like loving sheep - no nasty qualities. Cooperation will be there in loving way.  This is the way of Jehovah.  (by the way - this is why I do not buy the story that the real anointed are outside the congregation now)..... The real anointed are going to heaven and elders are now being trained to take their place.  The 144000 do not need important places in the congregations right now.  They share in a precious heritage - but their focus should now be on preaching not ruling/teaching the congregation as individuals.

 We do not need human rulers...... this is the message throughout the bible.  Jehovah and Christ are our rulers - with the understanding of the previously imperfect 144,000 in heaven.  Each person will have self-control and correct themselves according to Jehovah's laws.   Their happiness at receiving "life" during the 1000 years will be their most cherished gift. 

 

 

[Kosonen]

What about Pol Pot? I once saw a terrifying documentary showing piles of sculls.

[JW Insider]

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

The Russian government were covering up their atrocities - this is why it is so hard to determine how many really died.

Agreed. But if they were covering up atrocities in the range of 1 million atrocities, or 100,000 or 10,000 atrocities, then would we be honest to claim without reservation that it must have been 20,000,000 or 40,000,000? What if the very motives for producing those high numbers were for political propaganda purposes? (Making Stalin appear worse than Hitler, or making Stalin's "totalitarian" Communism appear worse than Hitler's totalitarian Fascism, or even a diversion from Churchill's or Truman's atrocities.) Would we want to be playing into the hands of these political motives by repeating numbers as "facts" when those "facts" are admittedly so hard to determine?

If the child abuse problem among Jewish Orthodox synagogues turns out to be twice as bad as that of the Catholic Church, but we found some unproven "data" from an anti-Semite source claiming it was 1,000 times worse, would we be quick to start repeating that Jews have it 1,000 times worse than Catholics?

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

Use it  but do not trust Wiki - the pedia. [. . .] .  I have seen history rewritten when the agenda changes. [ . . . ]  I lived it - I know what is true and false.

Yes. These are the main points I am making, too: Never, EVER rely on Wikipedia or not even a well-documented book that seemed very convincing. Always look at the reputation of the author, and the potential biases of the positions represented, and the purpose of a book or an idea within a book or source. Always look for ideas that are admitted to on all sides especially where they do not fit the usual pattern of the presentation*. Look at the evidence provided from all sides, look up the sources, watch out for bad translations. Use the Biblical two-witness rule! Don't count as a second "witness" people who merely copied from the same source. Be suspicious of anything you can't verify. Be humble and admit what we don't know, but don't assume that not being able to verify something means automatically that it didn't happen. Where there's smoke there's fire, usually, but sometimes it's just a smokescreen.

You are right that history has been rewritten when the agenda changes, and this is exactly the topic here. And most important is that last idea I just quoted from you above, when you said: "I lived it - I know what is true and false." Where possible, we must get the view of multiple people who lived through the events in question.

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

I live in a socialist Europe and I see how and when socialism works..... Communism is much different - it is extreme socialism - you do not want to live under it. There is a trend now to whitewash the history of communism. Why?  It is underestimated by the West and it is getting a better reputation...... Why?

There is a tendency to whitewash all religions and institutions because there are always those who wish to say that their form of human government is the best. In the US, as you know, there is even a tendency to whitewash the Democrats and produce "mainstream" news outlets for that purpose, and there is a tendency to whitewash the Republicans and produce "mainstream" news outlets for that purpose. The history of this type of phenomenon in the US goes back at least to the late 1700's. We need to focus on facts and evidence and thereby uncover motives and biases. It's just as important to humbly look at own motives and biases.

Another point related to motive is this:

Let's say I had thought that Hitler and his government killed 400,000,000 people, and you corrected me and could show evidence that even through all his battles and atrocities that he only engineered the death of 40,000,000. If you were to correct my error, I would not begin ranting about how some people are trying to promote Nazi propaganda, and bring back dangerous German Nazi regimes. So please don't get the idea that I want to live under communism.

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

This is how I see this unfolding...... Bible prophecy being fulfilled - exactly to the letter.

Sometimes the desire to see a Bible prophecy work out a certain way according to our own human reasoning or private interpretation can be a misleading motive and bias, too. Look at the tiny, tiny percent of supposed Biblical prophecy that ever worked out the way something was predicted in advance. And yet look how absolutely sure the presentations sounded when these predictions were first being made. The last one that ever turned out the way it was predicted was an explanation of the end of the Holy Roman Empire that was made in the late 1600's and which predicted some things that were accomplished by the French Revolution between 1789 and 1799. Because the accuracy was uncanny and 'undeniable,' Russell, and the Bible Students, and even our own JW publications accepted these dates as the correct solution to those same Bible prophecies for half a century. But now, we think they were just coincidences. This leaves us right back to the 0% accuracy in the track record of dozens of prophetic predictions so far. Of course, remaining future predictions could still be fulfilled "exactly to the letter."

We just need to be careful, discreet, humble, faithful, and never presumptuous about our expectations.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

What about Pol Pot? I once saw a terrifying documentary showing piles of sculls.

Pol Pot's (Khmer Rouge) regime was indeed terrible. So you might wonder why the USA so bitterly opposed his overthrow. It was because Vietnam overthrew Pol Pot, and isn't it curious that after a failed war in Vietnam the US had to go intervene one more time to punish them for making humanitarian headway in putting an end to Pol Pot's atrocities? The US provided both diplomatic and military support for the Pol Pot regime via the "Kampuchea" regime even after it was overthrown. Kissinger was working with China at that time and supported the Chinese invasion of Vietnam in retaliation, and the US responded by blocking IMF loans and putting other monetary and trade sanctions on Vietnam. And we covertly poured millions of dollars of military aid into the new "Pol Pot" regime.

If you are asking about the numbers of Cambodians and Vietnamese killed by the Pol Pot regime, I don't yet doubt that the numbers could be on the order of a million deaths.

For some interesting reading, you might want to look up the references mentioned in the Wikipedia article here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_United_States_support_for_the_Khmer_Rouge

-----------the rest of this post is an excerpt from that article--------------

Cambodia's UN seat

As a result of Chinese and Western opposition to the Vietnamese invasion and occupation, the Khmer Rouge, rather than the PRK, was allowed to hold Cambodia's United Nations (UN) seat until 1982. After 1982, the UN seat was filled by a Khmer Rouge-dominated coalition—the Coalition Government of Democratic Kampuchea (CGDK).^[1][2]

US military and diplomatic support

According to Michael Haas, despite publicly condemning the Khmer Rouge, the U.S. offered military support to the organization and was instrumental in preventing UN recognition of the Vietnam-aligned government.^[16] Haas argued that the U.S. and China responded to efforts from the Association of South East Asian Nations (ASEAN) for disarming the Khmer Rouge by ensuring the Khmer Rouge stayed armed, and that U.S. efforts for merging the Khmer Rouge with allied factions resulted in the formation of the CGDK. After 1982, the U.S. increased its annual covert aid to the Cambodian resistance from $4 million to $10 million.^[17]

Singaporean diplomat Bilahari Kausikan, recalled: "ASEAN wanted elections but the U.S. supported the return of a genocidal regime. Did any of you imagine that the U.S. once had in effect supported genocide?" In fact, Kausikan described the disagreement between the U.S. and ASEAN over the Khmer Rouge as reaching the threshold that the U.S. even threatened Singapore with "blood on the floor".^[18]

U.S. support for the Khmer Rouge guerrillas in the 1980s was "pivotal" to keeping the organization alive, and was in part motivated by revenge over Vietnam's defeat of the U.S. during the Vietnam War, according to Tom Fawthrop.^[19] A WikiLeaks dump of 500,000 U.S. diplomatic cables from 1978 document shows that the administration of President Jimmy Carter was torn between revulsion at the atrocities of the Khmer Rouge and concern with the possibility of growing Vietnamese influence should the Khmer Rouge collapse.^[20]Elizabeth Becker quoted Carter's National Security Advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski, as acknowledging that "I encourage[d] the Chinese to support [Khmer Rouge leader] Pol Pot ... we could never support him, but China could." However, Brzezinski subsequently stated: "The Chinese were aiding Pol Pot, but without any help or arrangement from the United States. Moreover, we told the Chinese explicitly that in our view Pol Pot was an abomination and that the United States would have nothing to do with him—directly or indirectly."^[21][22][23]

In late 1975, former National Security Advisor and United States Secretary of State Henry Kissinger told the Thai foreign minister: "You should tell the Cambodians that we will be friends with them. They are murderous thugs but we won't let that stand in our way."^[24] Years later, Kissinger elaborated: "The Thais and the Chinese did not want a Vietnamese-dominated Indochina. We didn't want the Vietnamese to dominate. I don't believe we did anything for Pol Pot. But I suspect we closed our eyes when some others did something for Pol Pot."^[25]

[Arauna]

There is a BIG difference between 6 million and the "conservative" numbers of 20 million.  .....  As you say - one can see what you want to see.   So to complain about the 40,000 or 20,000 does not take away the possibility that we can see the same happening in future caused by the same philosophical thinking.  There is no "wish" in my heart to see what I see.  The next time it will not just be 20,000 or even 40,000 million or  a conservative 100 million.

I see the same goals in the EU and the UN - it was reached by different pathways but the same goal.

Looked at a clip today where Mr. Guy Verhofstadt shouted at the EU members in a meeting at the EU that the problems in the EU is  because some countries do not want to  "give over their sovereignty to the EU." 

History has proven that humans are inherently wicked - we have ample examples in history of despots killing as many people as they wish and getting away with it.  If people do not actively work at being righteous according to the standards of God - anything is possible.

I therefore believe that this will lead to the worst tribulation the world has ever seen.  Maybe they will have a Babylon of confusion before they try to reverse its original effect - but they will go down trying.... 

 

[Kosonen]

When the real end time begins, this will be the grim reality:

Revelation 6:3  When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature+say: “Come!” 4  Another came out, a fiery-colored horse, and it was granted to the one seated on it to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another, and he was given a great sword.+

8  And I saw, and look! a pale horse, and the one seated on it had the name Death. And the Grave* was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage+ and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth.