'I Do Not Know Why We Persecute Jehovah's Witnesses,' Putin Says

[Space Merchant]

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

As usual, TTH ... when you cannot honestly answer a fair question, you resort to a "cutsey" statement that is completely irrelevant, for the specific purpose of diverting attention from the fact that you do not WANT to answer the question, as it would divulge you lack of previous analysis.

The question remains ... and is still valid.

HOW DO YOU KNOW ... Putin used the word "persecuted", if you did not see a video of him saying it .... AND .... competently speak and understand both Russian and English?

Usually when it is people like the TASS, who were pretty much among those the Duma does not like, them attesting to Putin's words is actually correct. They also alluded back to 2016 whereas want Putin had been vocal about Christians and preaching, to which, to those in the Christian world, see as concerning.

Even my sources confirmed this as a truth since they are living in Russia themselves. Not to mention TASS and others had used a video produced by WoA that was uploaded May 2 of last year.

[Space Merchant]

@TrueTomHarley Now the next thing that is concerning is the Russian Orthodox Church. Should they cry about something to the Kremlin, the Kremlin will act upon what they are being asked. Surely should something go down, the RoC will pop up again to make it difficult for some people.

[Witness]

Under this new development, is “Russia and its allies” the King of the North, or not?  Are these “facts” now D.O.A?

An ex-elder gives his view of Watchtower's changing prophesy concerning the "King of the North".  

 

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

Don't criticize person who is Critical Thinker :))))) ..... but you can criticize WT  as much you wish. WT speculative doctrinal thinking has purpose: to collect and keep members who will support Corporation with money and free labor.  

[Evacuated]

On 12/21/2018 at 5:20 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

HOW DO YOU KNOW ... Putin used the word "persecuted", if you did not see a video of him saying it

http://kremlin.ru/events/president/news/59374

[TrueTomHarley]

6 hours ago, Outta Here said:

http://kremlin.ru/events/president/news/59374

There, you big hillbilly @James Thomas Rook Jr.  Start translating:

Мы сегодня простились с Людмилой Михайловной Алексеевой. Думаю, каждый из вас со мной согласится в том, что это был светлый, мужественный и сильный человек. Она отстаивала справедливость так, как ей подсказывала совесть. И многие годы Людмила Михайловна участвовала в работе нашего Совета, была в этом кругу среди нас, очень многое сделала, для того чтобы Совет стал

[JW Insider]

8 hours ago, Outta Here said:

http://kremlin.ru/events/president/news/59374

The relevant portion is translated through bing as follows. I don't speak Russian, but can just about read it phonetically. After letting Bing and then Google translate, Google did a very good job overall, but this one portion appears to be better in Bing, but only for this one particular sentence that I've marked in red below.

------------------

V. Putin: Thank you.

With regard to the first of your stories about this African students got to see, of course, nonsense kakaja‑to. From what you are telling, it's just kakaja‑to nonsense.

And, of course, need to do what you suggest, to analyze the enforcement practice. And, if necessary, make adjustments to the kakie‑to.

B. Ryakhovskiy: For this girl to me now turned to the European Court of Justice, I have continued to ...

Putin: I don't know what denomination it belongs, she is Christian, but there are also a lot of directions. Jehovah's witnesses, too, Christians are being persecuted, I also do not really understand. So we just need to analyze, it is necessary to do so. I will talk with Vyacheslav Mikhailovich, and try to do it.

The Russian language original is 95% down into the page that @Outta Here provided above.

В.Ряховский: По этой девушке ко мне сейчас обратились, для того чтобы я продолжал в Европейский Суд…

В.Путин: Я не знаю, к какой конфессии она принадлежит, она христианка, но там тоже много направлений. Свидетели Иеговы тоже христиане, за что их преследовать, я тоже не очень понимаю. Поэтому надо просто проанализировать, надо это сделать. Я переговорю с Вячеславом Михайловичем, и попробуем это сделать.

The key word here is преследовать, which oddly enough can mean basically "chase" and therefore it can mean both prosecute and persecute. Formally you should to add a phrase that means "judicially" or "by trial" (i.e. преследовать + в судебном порядке, or преследовать + по суду ) and it means prosecute. Without these additions, I think it really should mean persecute, especially if used with a religion or minority in the context. Therefore, it SHOULD mean persecute here, but I suspect this translation could legally be challenged as just a less formal way of meaning "prosecute." 

In fact, if you just go to translate.bing.com and type in преследовать, you will get the following, which includes both prosecute and persecute without the formal additions:

Translations of  "преследовать"

VERB
haunt	преследовать, логово, мучить, обитать
pursue	преследовать, проводить, осуществлять, добиваться, стремиться, следуем
chase	чейз, погони, преследовать, преследование, догнать, гоняться, гоньбы
prosecute	преследовать, судебного преследования, обвинить, наказывать, уголовное преследование, сажать, осудить
persecute	преследовать
harass	преследовать, беспокоить, изводить, домогаться, докучать, запугивания
stalk	стебель, преследовать, ножке, черенок, плодоножки, стеблю, палочка
obsessing	преследовать, одержимы, увлеченно

© 2018 Microsoft

------------------

For reference, I have also added Google's translation of larger portions of the context below. Both for the original question about JWs, and the context of the later discussion where Putin evidently brings up JWs on his own, even if the particular case (of the African med student "missionary" studying in Russia) was not a JW:

-----------the rest of this post is Google's translation of excerpts from the link that Outta Here provided: ----------

There is also a list, for example, of organizations that also have information that they are involved in extremism and terrorism. There are 489 of them, 404 of them are Jehovah's Witnesses. I will make here an ominous pause. Many, perhaps, there are claims to Jehovah's Witnesses - they don’t transfuse blood, don’t send children to the hospital - but they certainly don’t call for violence and don’t carry it out.

So 404 of 489 - this is it. That’s how many terrorist organizations we have in the Russian Federation. Thus, I would like to express the hope that the anti-extremist legislation will, let's say, be moderated in accordance with the requirements of society and in accordance with the real level of crime.

Because everyone has more or less understood that these searches for pictures on social networks and the initiation of cases on this issue - this does not contribute to strengthening anything, it does not correspond to any state interests, it does not prevent any terrorist acts.

As we can see, when, unfortunately, this kind of thing happens, these are people who did not follow these lists, who did not come into the view of law enforcement agencies, because, of course, they do not post pictures on VKontakte, they do not communicate among themselves in open communities. They coordinate their actions completely differently.

Thank.

V.Putin: Thank you very much.

Ekaterina Mikhailovna, I am very pleased that the questions, rather sharp questions, were raised precisely by you - an employee of the Institute of Social Sciences under the President of the Russian Federation.

E.Shulman: Yes, I am now twice under the President of the Russian Federation, both at the place of work and in social activities.

V.Putin: See, everything is the same.

And they require careful consideration, all the questions you raised.

Regarding Jehovah's Witnesses. Probably, we can, and even should at some point, be much more liberal to representatives of various religious sects, but we should not forget that our society does not consist solely of religious sects. 90 percent of the citizens of the Russian Federation, or so, consider themselves Orthodox Christians. We have three more practically traditional our religions, which the state provides assistance. We should treat the representatives of all religions in the same way - this is true, but nevertheless it is also necessary to take into account the country and the society in which we live. True, this does not mean at all that we should include representatives of religious communities in some destructive ones, not even in terrorist organizations. Of course, this is complete nonsense, you need to carefully deal with it, here I agree with you.

You always return me to the case of Ponomarev, he is probably a truly respected person. But the judge, when he made the decision, do you think I knew that he was making the decision? Of course not. But when a judge makes such decisions, he does not proceed from merit or from something else. If it were a simple citizen who few people know, even the question would not be raised. The law is the same for everyone. To close relatives could be released at parting, at the funeral, there is no other case in the law. The judge is guided by these direct instructions of the text of the law itself, that's all. There is nothing like that, there is no ambush here, there is no political motive.

About unauthorized rallies. Let's still come back to this and see. You yourself mentioned, said about Paris. See, there are victims already affected. The fight is mainly in the center of the capital, and a state of emergency has been declared because of this. How many pogroms there are, burnt cars, shops, the losses are not only in the state, but also in people who have nothing to do with the state, they are enormous. And all this time - like a match, and everything started.

This does not mean at all that we should not analyze our own life and not look after the law that is in place in our country. But still, we must understand the world we live in. Liberal approach to an unauthorized rally. The hard answer from the state what? Water cannons, gas, batons, hundreds of delays - hundreds, can you imagine? Don't we know that? More recently, there have been heavy events in which the Constitution of the Russian Federation was adopted in force, in conditions of growing civil war, in fact, civil war! Crowds of people with weapons ran across Moscow, stormed the Ostankino, crawled along some kind of underground facilities, communications. Regular units of the Russian army were brought into Moscow, internal troops were involved, and they still fired at each other, not understanding what was happening. Chaos! Carefully need to treat this very. Although, of course, it is necessary to analyze the conditions in which we live and the rules that govern our life, including its side, which you mentioned.

Please, I beg you.

---------------- skipping to the area near the end where Putin brings up JWs on his own---------------

If the damage was mitigated, repaid, and the antisocial act is not so serious there.

A.Sokurov: It is the New Year and Christmas amnesty.

Vladimir Putin: Let's think, we have Christmas every year. We must carefully approach this.

It is necessary to finish already. I promised, otherwise I will work until three in the morning.

Here it is, that's all. Please, I beg you.

V. Ryakhovsky: Vladimir Vladimirovich, thank you very much.

To be honest, this is the first time in six years, the turn has reached me.

I have two questions, I will try to short, saving time.

In July 2016, a federal law was passed under the title “On the adoption of additional measures to counter terrorism”, the so-called “Spring Act” among the people.

This law amended the law on freedom of conscience. The Law on Freedom of Conscience was supplemented by a chapter on missionary activity. The definition of missionary activity is given, the procedure for its conduct is established, to the extent that, in order for a person to speak about his convictions, he must be delegated by a religious organization and have a standard document.

The Code of Administrative Offenses introduced Article 5.26 on establishing liability. A year and a half has passed, and I would very much like to ask the initiators of this law: has the goal, which was set by the authors, been achieved? According to this law, at least one extremist was held accountable?

Nevertheless, law enforcement agencies initiated and brought to court more than 600 administrative cases involving representatives of various religious denominations, with the possible exception of one - the most widespread. These things are as unbelievable as imagination can probably be.

Here is just one vivid example: Nizhny Novgorod, a student, a citizen of an African country, a sixth-year student at a medical university, is a little more than a month from state examinations. She gives an interview to one of the Internet channels, talks about herself, about her family, about her childhood, about how she has been a believer since childhood, a Christian, and in Russia she also comes to church, and all this helps her in her studies .

Two administrative cases are brought against her. The first is for violating the rules of missionary activity, she is fined, the second is for violating the goals of staying in the Russian Federation. She arrived on a missionary visa, and here she says something about her convictions. And she is appointed in the second case a fine and expulsion from the Russian Federation. Fortunately, the appellate station probably had enough intelligence: they didn’t cancel these decrees, but they postponed her expulsion until they received the diploma, in just a few months.

Interestingly, the basis of these cases was the expert opinion, which saw in this video hidden appeals, hidden missionary activity.

That is, you understand what's the matter? Hidden. There are no obvious signs of missionary activity. And why are they not? Yes, because it is hidden, and because of this, she was brought to justice.

I can bring a lot of such things, because this is part of my professional interests. The Constitution has a stable notion: when the freedom of conscience is revealed, it is said about the right to impart one’s beliefs. This measure, this rule of law appears, to put it mildly, simply manifestly excessive, it does not contribute to the harmonization of interfaith relations, but, on the contrary, leads to imbalance and violation of the constitutional rights of citizens.

Therefore, Vladimir Vladimirovich, we kindly ask you to instruct the Supreme Court to simply summarize the practice. And then there are so many accumulated of these cases that you can just draw caricatures. It just comes to ridiculous! I just brought one thing, but in fact there are a lot of them. And to raise the question of generalizing this practice on 5.26 with respect to religious organizations, and in general, probably, raise the question of the expediency, to what extent is such regulation justified. There is the concept of "spreading religious beliefs." Why else to introduce the concept of "missionary activity"?

The second question is completely irrelevant to this. Literally the day before, I had a meeting with several businessmen who responded to your May invitation to return to the Russian Federation after the years of emigration on the so-called Titov list.

And indeed, it was precisely by believing your word and not doubting your innocence, because those behind whom there was something, I think, would not even come at your invitation. And the fact that several people have already returned to their homeland in the hope that, while at home, they will be able to recover and protect their good name.
And one of the first defendants in the so-called Titov list, who returned to Russia after 13 years of forced emigration in London, became a businessman from Yekaterinburg Sergey Kapchuk. I met him. You should have seen his eyes after he arrived. Just burning, shining - he came home, he came, believing your call and believing that here is true today, unlike those years when he left, justice.

But, alas, he encountered today the same methods of investigation from which he had once escaped. He was automatically charged since 2005. After reading the materials of the case, as he explained to me, the corruption scheme in the government of the Sverdlovsk region, in which it was used, simply became clear.

They filed applications for the interrogation of specific people, heads of individual industries, confrontations - all of this consequence closes his eyes today, and, as we understood, is ready to bring the case to court, to hang up some conditional or slightly lax sentence, order to forget this thing.

But he did not come for this. He did not come to be given a conditional sentence, not to be released under an amnesty, but to prove that he was innocent.

Therefore, Vladimir Vladimirovich, kindly requested. The first is to give the General Prosecutor's Office to take over the cases of Sergei Kapchuk, and similar cases for the people who came, returned to Russia, to take control. And to you, of course, such a request, to still follow the fate of these people not until they returned, but in general, before the completion of their work.

This case has a public outcry today. Why? Because others, those who still remain abroad today, they are closely watching the result of this business. This will be an example for them, as an urge to return to Russia too. And, fulfilling the request of Kapchuk, I just wanted to give you a short appeal from him.

Thank you very much.

V.Putin: Thank you.

As for your first story about this African student, you need to look, of course, some sort of nonsense. From what you tell, it's just some kind of nonsense.

And you need, of course, to do what you propose - to conduct an analysis of law enforcement practice. And if necessary, make some adjustments.

V.Ryakhovsky: According to this girl, they now appealed to me, so that I would continue to the European Court ...

V.Putin: I don’t know to which confession she belongs, she is Christian, but there are also many directions. Jehovah's Witnesses are also Christians, for which I do not really understand how to persecute them. Therefore, you just need to analyze, you need to do it. I will talk with Vyacheslav Mikhailovich, and try to do it.

K. Kabanov: Thank you, Vladimir Vladimirovich.

Dear Colleagues!

You know, I actually, probably, in my 14 years of work, every time I hear that we have two problems: law enforcement agencies and bad laws.

In fact, in the framework of the instructions you gave last time, Vladimir Vladimirovich, we dealt with the history of the criminalization of the teenage environment. But, as we were taught at previous duty stations, we must look deep into, look, study . . . . 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

V.Putin: I don’t know to which confession she belongs, she is Christian, but there are also many directions. Jehovah's Witnesses are also Christians, for which I do not really understand how to persecute them. Therefore, you just need to analyze, you need to do it. I will talk with Vyacheslav Mikhailovich, and try to do it.

I still, in my own mind, assuming that I know the mind of Russian thinking ... especially of a man who used to be the head of the Soviet KGB, and also presumably knowing how adults in such positions think, do NOT believe that he used the word "persecute".  I believe this was in the mind of the translator, or the algorithm of the translation computer program,  ... NOT V. Putin.

Unless I can talk to someone who has the original video or transcript, in Russian, and who is conversational in BOTH Russian and English ... and I can get an equally qualified second opinion ... It is my belief and conjecture that the word he used is "prosecute".

Here is the general idea of  how I believe the thoughts actually were spoken:

" V.Putin: I don’t know to which confession she belongs, she is Christian, but there are also many directions. Jehovah's Witnesses are also Christians, for which I do not really understand how it is (meaning "why?") we prosecute them. Therefore, you just need to analyze, you need to do it. I will talk with Vyacheslav Mikhailovich, and try to do it."

If there is ANYBODY that knows HOW to persecute AND prosecute someone ... it is the former head of the KGB.

Translation is an art, as well as a science, and there are some artists that put out poor work, and scientists that plow your aircraft into a cornfield, and some computer programs that, like the HAL9000, do not take into consideration all aspects of a problem.

Deactivating Hal 9000 HD (COMPLETE).mp4

[Evacuated]

Like @@James Thomas Rook Jr., I cannot think that a politician as wiley and experienced as Mr Putin would use the word "persecute" in connection with his own government's activity.  As suggested above, the word "prosecute" makes far more sense and indeed a statement as quoted: 

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Jehovah's Witnesses are also Christians, for which I do not really understand how it is (meaning "why?") we prosecute them.

is no less an indictment on the persecution (intended use) of Jehovah's Witnesses in Russis and is really more credible.

[TrueTomHarley]

5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

do NOT believe that he used the word "persecute".  I believe this was in the mind of the translator, or the algorithm of the translation computer program,  ... 

It’s possible.

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

prosecute	преследовать, судебного преследования, обвинить, наказывать, уголовное преследование, сажать, осудить
persecute	преследовать
harass

Why doesn’t JWI stay in his ivory egghead tower? He has caused the unthinkable to happen...that my nemesis should become a bastion of truth.

[JW Insider]

14 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I still, in my own mind, assuming that I know the mind of Russian thinking ... especially of a man who used to be the head of the Soviet KGB, and also presumably knowing how adults in such positions think, do NOT believe that he used the word "persecute".  I believe this was in the mind of the translator, or the algorithm of the translation computer program,  ... NOT V. Putin.

JTR: I agree with you here. If you look at the entire meeting, the word "prosecute" was used in the translation a few of the other times, even in similar contexts. Judicial prosecution was already the topic here in nearly every case discussed, but the overall topic is a wider context than the auto-translator AI looks at. The fact that the name of a minority was used in the sentence, "Jehovah's Witnesses," and that the word "Christians" was in the immediate context, this is what probably triggered the translation, "persecute" instead of "prosecute."

Of course, this is still a very important admission as @Outta Here has said, and it's in line with what you were thinking about Putin being the one to get it straightened out, if it reaches to a high enough priority. There were several interesting admissions in the meeting, and Putin comes across as very professional, careful, knowledgeable and "wiley." He is just defensive enough to protect himself from various questionable decisions by judges, admits problems with some laws, understands some of the PR issues with the rest of the world, etc. But he also doesn't commit to overturn questionable actions, and doesn't want to give in too much, to avoid the impression, for example, that future amnesty can be counted on, based on past or current amnesty. 

[The Librarian]

@Samantha87Smith Can you help us with your Russian > English translation of the meaning?

Did he mean "Prosecute" or "Persecute"? See the last few posts above.