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'I Do Not Know Why We Persecute Jehovah's Witnesses,' Putin Says

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3 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Same answer: 

 
 
 

Okay, just so you know that I am taking your remarks seriously and treating you fairly:

I took your observations to the Worldwide Council of Lofty Ones. When they heard it was you, they didn't want to touch it, but I told them, probably capturing only the spirit of what you might say, not the exact words: "Even a blind transgendered astronaut lands on Pluto once in a while."

At my insistence they examined everything spoken and they concluded that you were right!!! There had been mistranslating. It was not "persecuting" That much was correct. But every other word had been mistranslated and Putin had actually been discussing an episode of Green Acres in which Arnold the Pig feels unjustly put upon.

Now, do you mind? I've got things to do. Do you have any idea the psychiatrist bills I'm running up because of you?

I mean, nobody should look at anything per your "reasoning."  Every second here spent by anyone on anything here or anywhere else is wasted time.

("Ahh...now ve are getting somewhere," my shrink tells me.)

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2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

As usual, TTH ... when you cannot honestly answer a fair question, you resort to a "cutsey" statement that is completely irrelevant, for the specific purpose of diverting attention from the fact that you do not WANT to answer the question, as it would divulge you lack of previous analysis.

The question remains ... and is still valid.

HOW DO YOU KNOW ... Putin used the word "persecuted", if you did not see a video of him saying it .... AND .... competently speak and understand both Russian and English?

Usually when it is people like the TASS, who were pretty much among those the Duma does not like, them attesting to Putin's words is actually correct. They also alluded back to 2016 whereas want Putin had been vocal about Christians and preaching, to which, to those in the Christian world, see as concerning.

Even my sources confirmed this as a truth since they are living in Russia themselves. Not to mention TASS and others had used a video produced by WoA that was uploaded May 2 of last year.

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@TrueTomHarley Now the next thing that is concerning is the Russian Orthodox Church. Should they cry about something to the Kremlin, the Kremlin will act upon what they are being asked. Surely should something go down, the RoC will pop up again to make it difficult for some people.

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Don't criticize person who is Critical Thinker :))))) ..... but you can criticize WT  as much you wish. WT speculative doctrinal thinking has purpose: to collect and keep members who will support Corporation with money and free labor.  

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6 hours ago, Outta Here said:

There, you big hillbilly @James Thomas Rook Jr.  Start translating:

Мы сегодня простились с Людмилой Михайловной Алексеевой. Думаю, каждый из вас со мной согласится в том, что это был светлый, мужественный и сильный человек. Она отстаивала справедливость так, как ей подсказывала совесть. И многие годы Людмила Михайловна участвовала в работе нашего Совета, была в этом кругу среди нас, очень многое сделала, для того чтобы Совет стал

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8 hours ago, Outta Here said:

The relevant portion is translated through bing as follows. I don't speak Russian, but can just about read it phonetically. After letting Bing and then Google translate, Google did a very good job overall, but this one portion appears to be better in Bing, but only for this one particular sentence that I've marked in red below.

------------------

V. Putin: Thank you.

With regard to the first of your stories about this African students got to see, of course, nonsense kakaja‑to. From what you are telling, it's just kakaja‑to nonsense.

And, of course, need to do what you suggest, to analyze the enforcement practice. And, if necessary, make adjustments to the kakie‑to.

B. Ryakhovskiy: For this girl to me now turned to the European Court of Justice, I have continued to ...

Putin: I don't know what denomination it belongs, she is Christian, but there are also a lot of directions. Jehovah's witnesses, too, Christians are being persecuted, I also do not really understand. So we just need to analyze, it is necessary to do so. I will talk with Vyacheslav Mikhailovich, and try to do it.

The Russian language original is 95% down into the page that @Outta Here provided above.

В.Ряховский: По этой девушке ко мне сейчас обратились, для того чтобы я продолжал в Европейский Суд…

В.Путин: Я не знаю, к какой конфессии она принадлежит, она христианка, но там тоже много направлений. Свидетели Иеговы тоже христиане, за что их преследовать, я тоже не очень понимаю. Поэтому надо просто проанализировать, надо это сделать. Я переговорю с Вячеславом Михайловичем, и попробуем это сделать.

The key word here is преследовать, which oddly enough can mean basically "chase" and therefore it can mean both prosecute and persecute. Formally you should to add a phrase that means "judicially" or "by trial" (i.e. преследовать + в судебном порядке, or преследовать + по суду ) and it means prosecute. Without these additions, I think it really should mean persecute, especially if used with a religion or minority in the context. Therefore, it SHOULD mean persecute here, but I suspect this translation could legally be challenged as just a less formal way of meaning "prosecute." 

In fact, if you just go to translate.bing.com and type in преследовать, you will get the following, which includes both prosecute and persecute without the formal additions:

Translations of  "преследовать"
VERB
haunt преследовать, логово, мучить, обитать
pursue преследовать, проводить, осуществлять, добиваться, стремиться, следуем
chase чейз, погони, преследовать, преследование, догнать, гоняться, гоньбы
prosecute преследовать, судебного преследования, обвинить, наказывать, уголовное преследование, сажать, осудить
persecute преследовать
harass преследовать, беспокоить, изводить, домогаться, докучать, запугивания
stalk стебель, преследовать, ножке, черенок, плодоножки, стеблю, палочка
obsessing преследовать, одержимы, увлеченно
© 2018 Microsoft

------------------

For reference, I have also added Google's translation of larger portions of the context below. Both for the original question about JWs, and the context of the later discussion where Putin evidently brings up JWs on his own, even if the particular case (of the African med student "missionary" studying in Russia) was not a JW:

-----------the rest of this post is Google's translation of excerpts from the link that Outta Here provided: ----------

There is also a list, for example, of organizations that also have information that they are involved in extremism and terrorism. There are 489 of them, 404 of them are Jehovah's Witnesses. I will make here an ominous pause. Many, perhaps, there are claims to Jehovah's Witnesses - they don’t transfuse blood, don’t send children to the hospital - but they certainly don’t call for violence and don’t carry it out.

So 404 of 489 - this is it. That’s how many terrorist organizations we have in the Russian Federation. Thus, I would like to express the hope that the anti-extremist legislation will, let's say, be moderated in accordance with the requirements of society and in accordance with the real level of crime.

Because everyone has more or less understood that these searches for pictures on social networks and the initiation of cases on this issue - this does not contribute to strengthening anything, it does not correspond to any state interests, it does not prevent any terrorist acts.

As we can see, when, unfortunately, this kind of thing happens, these are people who did not follow these lists, who did not come into the view of law enforcement agencies, because, of course, they do not post pictures on VKontakte, they do not communicate among themselves in open communities. They coordinate their actions completely differently.

Thank.

V.Putin: Thank you very much.

Ekaterina Mikhailovna, I am very pleased that the questions, rather sharp questions, were raised precisely by you - an employee of the Institute of Social Sciences under the President of the Russian Federation.

E.Shulman: Yes, I am now twice under the President of the Russian Federation, both at the place of work and in social activities.

V.Putin: See, everything is the same.

And they require careful consideration, all the questions you raised.

Regarding Jehovah's Witnesses. Probably, we can, and even should at some point, be much more liberal to representatives of various religious sects, but we should not forget that our society does not consist solely of religious sects. 90 percent of the citizens of the Russian Federation, or so, consider themselves Orthodox Christians. We have three more practically traditional our religions, which the state provides assistance. We should treat the representatives of all religions in the same way - this is true, but nevertheless it is also necessary to take into account the country and the society in which we live. True, this does not mean at all that we should include representatives of religious communities in some destructive ones, not even in terrorist organizations. Of course, this is complete nonsense, you need to carefully deal with it, here I agree with you.

You always return me to the case of Ponomarev, he is probably a truly respected person. But the judge, when he made the decision, do you think I knew that he was making the decision? Of course not. But when a judge makes such decisions, he does not proceed from merit or from something else. If it were a simple citizen who few people know, even the question would not be raised. The law is the same for everyone. To close relatives could be released at parting, at the funeral, there is no other case in the law. The judge is guided by these direct instructions of the text of the law itself, that's all. There is nothing like that, there is no ambush here, there is no political motive.

About unauthorized rallies. Let's still come back to this and see. You yourself mentioned, said about Paris. See, there are victims already affected. The fight is mainly in the center of the capital, and a state of emergency has been declared because of this. How many pogroms there are, burnt cars, shops, the losses are not only in the state, but also in people who have nothing to do with the state, they are enormous. And all this time - like a match, and everything started.

This does not mean at all that we should not analyze our own life and not look after the law that is in place in our country. But still, we must understand the world we live in. Liberal approach to an unauthorized rally. The hard answer from the state what? Water cannons, gas, batons, hundreds of delays - hundreds, can you imagine? Don't we know that? More recently, there have been heavy events in which the Constitution of the Russian Federation was adopted in force, in conditions of growing civil war, in fact, civil war! Crowds of people with weapons ran across Moscow, stormed the Ostankino, crawled along some kind of underground facilities, communications. Regular units of the Russian army were brought into Moscow, internal troops were involved, and they still fired at each other, not understanding what was happening. Chaos! Carefully need to treat this very. Although, of course, it is necessary to analyze the conditions in which we live and the rules that govern our life, including its side, which you mentioned.

Please, I beg you.

---------------- skipping to the area near the end where Putin brings up JWs on his own---------------

If the damage was mitigated, repaid, and the antisocial act is not so serious there.

A.Sokurov: It is the New Year and Christmas amnesty.

Vladimir Putin: Let's think, we have Christmas every year. We must carefully approach this.

It is necessary to finish already. I promised, otherwise I will work until three in the morning.

Here it is, that's all. Please, I beg you.

V. Ryakhovsky: Vladimir Vladimirovich, thank you very much.

To be honest, this is the first time in six years, the turn has reached me.

I have two questions, I will try to short, saving time.

In July 2016, a federal law was passed under the title “On the adoption of additional measures to counter terrorism”, the so-called “Spring Act” among the people.

This law amended the law on freedom of conscience. The Law on Freedom of Conscience was supplemented by a chapter on missionary activity. The definition of missionary activity is given, the procedure for its conduct is established, to the extent that, in order for a person to speak about his convictions, he must be delegated by a religious organization and have a standard document.

The Code of Administrative Offenses introduced Article 5.26 on establishing liability. A year and a half has passed, and I would very much like to ask the initiators of this law: has the goal, which was set by the authors, been achieved? According to this law, at least one extremist was held accountable?

Nevertheless, law enforcement agencies initiated and brought to court more than 600 administrative cases involving representatives of various religious denominations, with the possible exception of one - the most widespread. These things are as unbelievable as imagination can probably be.

Here is just one vivid example: Nizhny Novgorod, a student, a citizen of an African country, a sixth-year student at a medical university, is a little more than a month from state examinations. She gives an interview to one of the Internet channels, talks about herself, about her family, about her childhood, about how she has been a believer since childhood, a Christian, and in Russia she also comes to church, and all this helps her in her studies .

Two administrative cases are brought against her. The first is for violating the rules of missionary activity, she is fined, the second is for violating the goals of staying in the Russian Federation. She arrived on a missionary visa, and here she says something about her convictions. And she is appointed in the second case a fine and expulsion from the Russian Federation. Fortunately, the appellate station probably had enough intelligence: they didn’t cancel these decrees, but they postponed her expulsion until they received the diploma, in just a few months.

Interestingly, the basis of these cases was the expert opinion, which saw in this video hidden appeals, hidden missionary activity.

That is, you understand what's the matter? Hidden. There are no obvious signs of missionary activity. And why are they not? Yes, because it is hidden, and because of this, she was brought to justice.

I can bring a lot of such things, because this is part of my professional interests. The Constitution has a stable notion: when the freedom of conscience is revealed, it is said about the right to impart one’s beliefs. This measure, this rule of law appears, to put it mildly, simply manifestly excessive, it does not contribute to the harmonization of interfaith relations, but, on the contrary, leads to imbalance and violation of the constitutional rights of citizens.

Therefore, Vladimir Vladimirovich, we kindly ask you to instruct the Supreme Court to simply summarize the practice. And then there are so many accumulated of these cases that you can just draw caricatures. It just comes to ridiculous! I just brought one thing, but in fact there are a lot of them. And to raise the question of generalizing this practice on 5.26 with respect to religious organizations, and in general, probably, raise the question of the expediency, to what extent is such regulation justified. There is the concept of "spreading religious beliefs." Why else to introduce the concept of "missionary activity"?

The second question is completely irrelevant to this. Literally the day before, I had a meeting with several businessmen who responded to your May invitation to return to the Russian Federation after the years of emigration on the so-called Titov list.

And indeed, it was precisely by believing your word and not doubting your innocence, because those behind whom there was something, I think, would not even come at your invitation. And the fact that several people have already returned to their homeland in the hope that, while at home, they will be able to recover and protect their good name.

And one of the first defendants in the so-called Titov list, who returned to Russia after 13 years of forced emigration in London, became a businessman from Yekaterinburg Sergey Kapchuk. I met him. You should have seen his eyes after he arrived. Just burning, shining - he came home, he came, believing your call and believing that here is true today, unlike those years when he left, justice.

But, alas, he encountered today the same methods of investigation from which he had once escaped. He was automatically charged since 2005. After reading the materials of the case, as he explained to me, the corruption scheme in the government of the Sverdlovsk region, in which it was used, simply became clear.

They filed applications for the interrogation of specific people, heads of individual industries, confrontations - all of this consequence closes his eyes today, and, as we understood, is ready to bring the case to court, to hang up some conditional or slightly lax sentence, order to forget this thing.

But he did not come for this. He did not come to be given a conditional sentence, not to be released under an amnesty, but to prove that he was innocent.

Therefore, Vladimir Vladimirovich, kindly requested. The first is to give the General Prosecutor's Office to take over the cases of Sergei Kapchuk, and similar cases for the people who came, returned to Russia, to take control. And to you, of course, such a request, to still follow the fate of these people not until they returned, but in general, before the completion of their work.

This case has a public outcry today. Why? Because others, those who still remain abroad today, they are closely watching the result of this business. This will be an example for them, as an urge to return to Russia too. And, fulfilling the request of Kapchuk, I just wanted to give you a short appeal from him.

Thank you very much.

V.Putin: Thank you.

As for your first story about this African student, you need to look, of course, some sort of nonsense. From what you tell, it's just some kind of nonsense.

And you need, of course, to do what you propose - to conduct an analysis of law enforcement practice. And if necessary, make some adjustments.

V.Ryakhovsky: According to this girl, they now appealed to me, so that I would continue to the European Court ...

V.Putin: I don’t know to which confession she belongs, she is Christian, but there are also many directions. Jehovah's Witnesses are also Christians, for which I do not really understand how to persecute them. Therefore, you just need to analyze, you need to do it. I will talk with Vyacheslav Mikhailovich, and try to do it.

K. Kabanov: Thank you, Vladimir Vladimirovich.

Dear Colleagues!

You know, I actually, probably, in my 14 years of work, every time I hear that we have two problems: law enforcement agencies and bad laws.

In fact, in the framework of the instructions you gave last time, Vladimir Vladimirovich, we dealt with the history of the criminalization of the teenage environment. But, as we were taught at previous duty stations, we must look deep into, look, study . . . . 

 

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4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

V.Putin: I don’t know to which confession she belongs, she is Christian, but there are also many directions. Jehovah's Witnesses are also Christians, for which I do not really understand how to persecute them. Therefore, you just need to analyze, you need to do it. I will talk with Vyacheslav Mikhailovich, and try to do it.

I still, in my own mind, assuming that I know the mind of Russian thinking ... especially of a man who used to be the head of the Soviet KGB, and also presumably knowing how adults in such positions think, do NOT believe that he used the word "persecute".  I believe this was in the mind of the translator, or the algorithm of the translation computer program,  ... NOT V. Putin.

Unless I can talk to someone who has the original video or transcript, in Russian, and who is conversational in BOTH Russian and English ... and I can get an equally qualified second opinion ... It is my belief and conjecture that the word he used is "prosecute".

Here is the general idea of  how I believe the thoughts actually were spoken:

" V.Putin: I don’t know to which confession she belongs, she is Christian, but there are also many directions. Jehovah's Witnesses are also Christians, for which I do not really understand how it is (meaning "why?") we prosecute them. Therefore, you just need to analyze, you need to do it. I will talk with Vyacheslav Mikhailovich, and try to do it."

If there is ANYBODY that knows HOW to persecute AND prosecute someone ... it is the former head of the KGB.

Translation is an art, as well as a science, and there are some artists that put out poor work, and scientists that plow your aircraft into a cornfield, and some computer programs that, like the HAL9000, do not take into consideration all aspects of a problem.

Deactivating Hal 9000 HD (COMPLETE).mp4

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    • Absolutely agree. But what I see as it is possible to read in WT Society text about Higher education is this: They tend to separate young minds from "secular knowledge" because of some fears. Perhaps one of fear is not main reason, to be learned about non-Bible ideas. But as main reason i see how this "secular ideas" can cause that young JW members begin to question WT and Bible.  Please have in mind what you already said, JHVH not decided to separate Congregation, but He doing just opposite. He let all sort of influence to be spread on  people, all people, not just JW's. If JHVH not made separation in literal way, than WT try to do this separation in limited level on limited class of people for limited time in their life - looks funny and not productive as they expect.  This was completely necessary to be said ... using this sort of illustration with mafia as subject :))))) ........... but you "provoked" me a little :)))) and i will add. We all working for devil the boss, because he is ruler, god of this world, global company/corporation. Just another, different way of rationalization.   :))))))
    • I agree that God is organized, which is clear in creation.  He has also organized his anointed Body of “144,000” perfectly, by distributing gifts in various measure. All are to benefit from each other.  (1 Cor chapter 12)  And he himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as pastors and teachers 12 for the equipping of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all reach the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to a measure of the maturity of the fullness of Christ.  Eph 4:11-13 In Matt 13:36-43 it says, “The Son of Man will send out his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom all the causes of sin and those who do lawless deeds” Matt 13:41 Jesus stated that his kingdom is “no part of this world”. John 18:36  His kingdom is comprised of the anointed – those part of his Body.  He is the “Lord of lords and King of kings”.  Rev 17:14 (Matt 20:21)    And they were singing a new song, saying, “You are worthy to take the scroll     and to open its seals, because you were slaughtered,     and bought people for God by your blood     from every tribe and language and people and nation, 10 and made them a kingdom and priests to our God,     and they will reign on the earth.” Rev 5:9,10 (1 Pet 2:5,9) Matt 13:37,38 – “So he answered and said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world. And the good seed—these are the sons of the kingdom, but the darnel are the sons of the evil one.” If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:29 We know that not all of God’s anointed become faithful members of the Bride.  They can fall from their heavenly position. 2 Pet 3:17; Rev 8:10,11  This harvest firstly concerns those belonging to Christ, who are part of his kingdom and are found either as good seed or weeds.  I hope you can see that Matt 13:36-43 has nothing to do with the all the kingdoms on the earth and the people in them.  (Luke 4:5-7)  In Matt 13:38; It does say, “the field is the world” – but world can mean, “an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution” which describes the anointed arrangement of "kings" under their Head Jesus Christ.  John 4:23,24 -   Jesus said right before these scriptures:   “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.” John 4:21 Christ’s Body replaced the temple in Jerusalem.  There is no more literal, physical place of worship, since the Temple is now built with “living stones”.  1 Pet 2:5,9   They are given “spirit” and “truth”.  1 John 2:20,27; John 16:13  If they fail in their devotion to God and Christ, they lose what has been given them.  Luke 8:18; 1 Cor 3:18  They will not be sealed into the tribes of “Israel”.    Luke 13:24; Rev 3:11 Again in Rev 18:4, “my people”, refer to God’s holy people – His “special possession”.  They and their companions with them are to leave the “organization” where the “darnel” are teaching His people, lies. Rev 18:4-8 (1 Pet 2:5,9,10)      
    • I don't know if anyone provided an update to this story, but the "brother" finally pled guilty, and was sentenced to five years, for three felony counts of child rape with two different victims. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/man-who-raped-jehovah-s-witness-girls-sentenced-5-years-n1082136 Elihu Rodriguez, 32, of Yakima, Washington, was given five years, the maximum sentence prosecutors had asked for, after Rodriguez pleaded guilty to three felony counts of child rape in the third degree in September. He was also ordered to register as a sex offender. Both of his victims attended the sentencing, which took place Friday at the King County Maleng Regional Justice Center in Kent, Washington. I believe this was the case I was told something about in 2018, which is why I mentioned then that I couldn't say much because it was an upcoming court case. If it's the same one, then someone (parent?) convinced her not to report it because it was just a matter that this 25-year-old was in love with her, and so they told her it was actually multiple acts of fornication, not child abuse or child rape. She agreed not to report on the basis that she would be considered guilty of fornication, too. So the family moved to another congregation, and within months, she got to a point where she decided she needed to report it to the elders. (I don't think it was because she learned about another girl being raped/abused by the man, even though this would make sense.) When she did report it to her new congregation's elders in 2013, they actually called the legal department just as they were supposed to, but evidently someone thought it was going to be possible to treat this as "consensual" and the elders tried to get her to say it was consensual. She refused to agree with the elders that it was consensual, and took it to the authorities. When I heard about this case (or perhaps another one just like it) I was only told the general area of the US, and some circumstances, but no names. I was only told that this was disturbing that someone would try to turn a child molestation case of a "16 year old girl" into a consensual case in spite of the young age. (I was not told that she was actually 14/15.) Years earlier, J R Brown, as a spokesmen for the Society, had tried to minimize a lot of these cases by saying that a lot of them are like cases of an 18 year old boy with a 16 year old girl, which sounded a bit like the old "boys will be boys" excuse. 
    • The point was that Jehovah is organized, the evidence is all around us. This leads us to believe that His visible favored people would be organized in doing His will. Moving forward we can consider WHO HE is about to sanction based on Matthew 13:36-43, John 4:23,24,Revelation 18:4 and a few more.......
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