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JW Lawyer on Disfellowshipping and Shunning

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Jehovah's Witness Organization Redefines Shunning to Falsely.mp4

Every JW visiting this page should MORALLY comment below and publicly state that this JW Lawyer is LYING through his teeth to the Canadian Supreme Court.

If you don't, YOU participate in this gross sin. Because you ALL KNOW this is a false statement.

Remember as well that this JW Lawyer is also an Officer of the Court.

What the courts do not know is that JW's consider outright lying in court a part of "theocratic warfare" just like Muslims do. So it is a virtue to them.

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SMH.

Can you spell P-E-R-J-U-R-Y?

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Well, there were 2 inaccurate points that lawyer made, they have to seat in the second room or at the back of the hall and not allow to enter the hall before prayer and they have to leave the hall before the closinprayer er, also the only thing i know is that if the person lives at home they can still have some sort of interaction at home but if the disfellowshiped person lives not at home there will be not relationship at all till he is reinstated.

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9 hours ago, Jay Iza said:

Well, there were 2 inaccurate points that lawyer made

"Inaccurate points" = LYING (aka PERJURY) on the part of Jehovah's WItnesses to none other than the Supreme Court itself.

It can't get more "officially LYING" than that.

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A disfellowshipped person is completely SHUNNED. AND any person that leaves the JW organisation is completely SHUNNED.

Grown up children are asked to leave the family home. Grown up children that do not live at home are completely SHUNNED. 

Any person can walk into a Kingdom Hall as it is for public to visit and listen to talks, BUT a person that is being SHUNNED will not be spoken to by anyone, and they are made to feel dirty and evil. They are put to shame by everyone else in the hall. It's horrible and definitely not Christian. 

But JW legal dept will of course believe that deliberately lying is part of serving God. Yes, it's called 'spiritual warfare', and they are told it is right. 

How low the JW Org has sunken. What shame it brings on God Himself. 

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Evidently this is "Normal family relations" according to Watchtower:

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This lawyer is lying shamelessly. At the traveling overseer school, the subject of how to treat disfellowshipped ones was touched. We received instructions to remove elders and ministerial servants and pioneers who have any type of contact with disfellowshipped ones. Immediate action is to be taken especially if the Congregation lost respect for an appointed brother. 

Granted, only in extreme family emergencies such as death of family or legal matters are JW's allowed to have LIMITED contact with those disfellowshipped or disassociated. If anyone with privileges has a child living under their home that has been disfellowshipped, that is cause for removal of privileges. 

If the JW starts to justify and verbally defend his expelled relative perhaps even expressing that the decision was wrong, then after repeated counsel being ignored, a judicial committee may be formed.

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On 1/13/2019 at 8:50 PM, Aaron Gallegos said:

This lawyer is lying shamelessly. At the traveling overseer school, the subject of how to treat disfellowshipped ones was touched. We received instructions to remove elders and ministerial servants and pioneers who have any type of contact with disfellowshipped ones. Immediate action is to be taken especially if the Congregation lost respect for an appointed brother. 

Granted, only in extreme family emergencies such as death of family or legal matters are JW's allowed to have LIMITED contact with those disfellowshipped or disassociated. If anyone with privileges has a child living under their home that has been disfellowshipped, that is cause for removal of privileges. 

If the JW starts to justify and verbally defend his expelled relative perhaps even expressing that the decision was wrong, then after repeated counsel being ignored, a judicial committee may be formed.

I agree with you that this lawyer is lying. I understand the policy as well and I think you stated it precisely how it is to be applied. The only problem I have is that Mr. Jackson didn't explain it as well as you just did when he was under oath in Australia. Mr. Jackson stated that normal family relations continue, just not spiritual ones. How is this not also lying? Mr. Jackson knows the truth, exactly as you stated it, since he approved it, but yet decides to lie in court under oath? How can an honest person follow the lead of such person(s)? 

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It is a dangerous thing to tell someone they may not pray with their family members if they are disfellowshipped.

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I would really like to see a list of scriptures that the GB misuse to make these loveless rules. 

 

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@JOHN BUTLER So I guess that makes you an Anti-Pauline? Anti-Paulines reject whatever Paul's preaching, even removed or ignore it in the Bible itself. Disfellowshipped people are shunned by the congregation, not as much by family. Last I checked we are not of Judaisim where anything and everythi is 100% cut off.

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13 hours ago, Equivocation said:

@JOHN BUTLER So I guess that makes you an Anti-Pauline? Anti-Paulines reject whatever Paul's preaching, even removed or ignore it in the Bible itself. Disfellowshipped people are shunned by the congregation, not as much by family. Last I checked we are not of Judaisim where anything and everythi is 100% cut off.

 You think that the gb is on par with Paul? 

Wow, just wow. They got you good

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14 hours ago, Equivocation said:

@JOHN BUTLER So I guess that makes you an Anti-Pauline? Anti-Paulines reject whatever Paul's preaching, even removed or ignore it in the Bible itself. Disfellowshipped people are shunned by the congregation, not as much by family. Last I checked we are not of Judaisim where anything and everythi is 100% cut off.

You would have read enough comments on here to know how JW's treat those that are d/fed and those that leave the org.

Some Witnesses have no feelings, they just go by the 'rules' of the JW Org. For instance :-

Our only daughter (H) that is still in the Org, 'grassed up' one of our other daughters, to the Elders. 

(H) didn't even consult us, mum and dad, even though I was still a JW and my wife was attending meetings with me and was an unbaptised publisher. (H) had some information and she just wanted to go straight to the Elders. She has no love, no mercy, she is just a robot JW. But other JW's see her as a really good person. 

The daughter that was 'in trouble' chose to leave the Org. But even though i was still a JW I stated to everyone that I would not shun my daughter. And my wife and I kept in contact with her.  So like I say it is an individual thing. 

However, when I left the JW Org of my own choice, because of the serious Child Abuse problem within it, I was completely shunned by the whole congregation, around 120 to 130 people. 

Now you show me 3 scriptures that directly state that congregants should shun me for leaving the Org for a good reason ? 

In my honest opinion the scriptures are written for the Anointed, not the earthly class. 

Much more is expected of the Anointed because they have a much closer relationship with God. (And i mean the true Anointed, not your GB) 

But your comment is about your worship of men, the GB. You are trying to protect their reputation. 

You are not looking for justice or mercy. You do not have 'the mind of Christ'. You are like our daughter (H), just a robot for the JW Org. 

Using silly expressions such as Anti-Pauline. Does it make you feel good ? I'm not impressed. 

God and Jesus Christ know everything about everyone. They know when people are falsely disfellowshipped, that is, disfellowshipped for non scriptural reasons, and they know when a person is shunned because that person takes an action in line with God's word. 

Your GB have placed themselves on high. They think they have the right to make non-scriptural rules to domineer people, just like the Pharisees did. 

If you are happy with that so be it, but be careful they may just turn on you some day. 

 

 

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On 1/25/2019 at 12:34 PM, Shiwiii said:

 You think that the gb is on par with Paul? 

Wow, just wow. They got you good

Even outside of the faith this is the practice. Where do you think the practice originated from if you don't mind me asking and from whose congregation?

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On 1/25/2019 at 2:11 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

You would have read enough comments on here to know how JW's treat those that are d/fed and those that leave the org.

Some Witnesses have no feelings, they just go by the 'rules' of the JW Org. For instance :-

Our only daughter (H) that is still in the Org, 'grassed up' one of our other daughters, to the Elders. 

(H) didn't even consult us, mum and dad, even though I was still a JW and my wife was attending meetings with me and was an unbaptised publisher. (H) had some information and she just wanted to go straight to the Elders. She has no love, no mercy, she is just a robot JW. But other JW's see her as a really good person. 

The daughter that was 'in trouble' chose to leave the Org. But even though i was still a JW I stated to everyone that I would not shun my daughter. And my wife and I kept in contact with her.  So like I say it is an individual thing. 

However, when I left the JW Org of my own choice, because of the serious Child Abuse problem within it, I was completely shunned by the whole congregation, around 120 to 130 people. 

Now you show me 3 scriptures that directly state that congregants should shun me for leaving the Org for a good reason ? 

In my honest opinion the scriptures are written for the Anointed, not the earthly class. 

Much more is expected of the Anointed because they have a much closer relationship with God. (And i mean the true Anointed, not your GB) 

But your comment is about your worship of men, the GB. You are trying to protect their reputation. 

You are not looking for justice or mercy. You do not have 'the mind of Christ'. You are like our daughter (H), just a robot for the JW Org. 

Using silly expressions such as Anti-Pauline. Does it make you feel good ? I'm not impressed. 

God and Jesus Christ know everything about everyone. They know when people are falsely disfellowshipped, that is, disfellowshipped for non scriptural reasons, and they know when a person is shunned because that person takes an action in line with God's word. 

Your GB have placed themselves on high. They think they have the right to make non-scriptural rules to domineer people, just like the Pharisees did. 

If you are happy with that so be it, but be careful they may just turn on you some day. 

 

 

Happy with what? I told you the same point last time, only this time you have an audience. Pops, if I didn't have the mind of Christ then why are you the one not explaining anything of Christ properly? I'm pretty sure you said before you dont know as much and want to learn more about God.

Bud, if I had no feelings for anyone I wouldn't be preaching to people. I've been teaching people about God and the Bible and not only it makes me feel good, but it makes the person I preach to feel good. There's one person in particular who is a special case whereas I made promise to meet with her at least 2-3 times a week. It is something that is both personal and private. 

Disfellowshiping or excommunicating was something others have spoken to you about on occasion. I can see how the application doesn't stick because it goes into one ear and out the other.

I don't worship men, I worship God alone. Christains just offer me to tools to be an effective preacher, reading the Bible, etc. Which is no different to how it was done in the past, theres actually historical works of how first century congregations and onward operate, which is no different with us today.

Anti-pauline is a legitimate expression, its only silly if you are ignorant about it, but allow me to explain. This is also ironic because you just said I don't have the mind of Christ. An Anti-pauline is a person who rejects anything Apostle Paul says, does or writes. Anti-paulines also reject Paul's word about excommunication also.

Also good evening, or good morning where you are.

Can you give an example of non scriptural rules? Paul was up there with Clement, they gave a word in to the congregations too.

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"Pops", "Bud," from a 15 year old that thinks he knows everything. Oh dear.

From a 'person' that uses a black ghost to identify with. Interesting, from a supposed JW. 

Quote "There's one person in particular who is a special case whereas I made promise to meet with her at least 2-3 times a week. It is something that is both personal and private." 

Um, are you a young man meeting up with a female in private ? That is a disfellowshipping offence you know. No two witnesses needed to accuse you of fornication. GB rules. 

Quote 'Anti-pauline is a legitimate expression'. Yes so is homophobia. What point are you trying to prove ? 

I love and believe Paul's writings to the congregations. However my feelings are that Paul was talking to those of the Heavenly Class / the Anointed, not to any of the earthly class. More is expected of the Anointed because they have been given more responsibility and have a greater reward. (Being in heaven with God and Jesus Christ is surely a greater award, even though a pure life here on Earth will be wonderful ).

Quote "Can you give an example of non scriptural rules ? "  

The two witness rule concerning Child Abuse. 

The misuse of the scripture about the Superior Authorities, from 1929 to 1962  I believe. 

The accusation of fornication if a man and woman enters a place with no other Witnesses with them. 

( But no accusation about two men or two women, which could be seen by others are homosexuality ).

The Blood Issue rules that keep changing. 

The shunning rules, when a person 'resigns' from the JW Org. 

Reasons the GB use for disfellowshipping. (This touches on other subjects but would make another topic).

So young person, I'm not your 'Pops' and I'm not your 'Bud'. 

You completely lost your side of this discussion by using those expressions, and yes, you showed yourself as Not having the Mind of Christ

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Public protest against Watchtower shunning policies in São Paulo

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It also looks like it’s proof that the Canadian lawyer for the Watchtower perjured himself as an officer of the court to their Supreme Court

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is it ok for a JW fireman to rescue people from a burning church?

This is how JW's constantly think..... get real folks...

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      “Secular judges have no authority and no expertise to review a church membership decision,” said a statement from Andre Schutten, a spokesman for the group. “Church discipline is a spiritual matter falling within spiritual jurisdiction, not a legal matter falling within the courts’ civil jurisdiction. The courts should not interfere.”
      John Sikkema, staff lawyer for ARPA, said, “The issue in this appeal is jurisdiction. A state actor, including a court, must never go beyond its jurisdiction. The Supreme Court must consider what kind of authority the courts can or cannot legitimately claim. We argue that the civil government and churches each have limited and distinct spheres of authority. This basic distinction between civil and spiritual jurisdiction is a source of freedom and religious pluralism and a guard against civic totalism.”
      He continued, “Should the judiciary have the authority to decide who gets to become or remain a church member? Does the judiciary have the authority to decide who does or does not get to participate in the sacraments? Church discipline is a spiritual matter falling within spiritual jurisdiction, not a legal matter falling within the courts’ civil jurisdiction. The courts should not interfere. Here we need separation of church and state.”
      The Alberta Court of Appeal, however, suggested the fight was about more than ecclesiastical rules.
      “Because Jehovah’s Witnesses shun disfellowshipped members, his wife, other children and other Jehovah’s Witnesses were compelled to shun him,” that lower court decision said. “The respondent asked the appeal committee to consider the mental and emotional distress he and his family were under as a result of his duaghter’s disfellowship.”
      The church committee concluded he was “not sufficiently repentant.”
      The ruling said “the only basis for establishing jurisdiction over a decision of the church is when the complaint involves property and civil rights,” and that is what Wall alleged.
      “Accordingly, a court has jurisdiction to review the decision of a religious organization when a breach of the rules of natural justice is alleged.”
       
       
    • By The Librarian
      OTTAWA -- The Supreme Court of Canada says a Jehovah's Witness who was expelled from his Calgary congregation cannot take his case to a judge.
      In a decision today, the high court says the Alberta Court of Queen's Bench has no jurisdiction to review the congregation's decision to shun Randy Wall over alleged drunkenness and verbal abuse.
      Several religious organizations took an active interest in the case, given questions about the degree to which the courts can review such decisions by faith-based bodies.
      Wall, an independent realtor, was summoned in 2014 to appear before the judicial committee of the Highwood Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, a four-person panel of elders.
      He admitted to two episodes of drunkenness and, on one of those occasions, verbally abusing his wife -- wrongdoing he attributed to family stress over the earlier expulsion of his 15-year old daughter from the congregation.
      The judicial committee told Wall that he, too, would be expelled because he was not sufficiently repentant.
      https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/jehovah-s-witness-cannot-appeal-expulsion-to-a-judge-supreme-court-1.3953336
    • By Jack Ryan
      Mike MartindaleUpdated 6:11 p.m. ET Feb. 16, 2018 Keego Harbor — A quiet residential street became a horrific crime scene Friday with news that four people — a couple and their adult children — died in what police are describing as a triple murder-suicide.

      By late afternoon, some yellow police crime scene tape remained around the two-story wood frame bungalow in the 2300 block of Cass Lake Road where police were sent about 8:10 a.m. on a welfare check after a relative became worried about the family, Keego Harbor Police Chief John Fitzgerald said.
      One of four bodies is removed from the home of the 2300 block of Cass Lake Road. (Photo: Clarence Tabb Jr., The Detroit News)
      “A relative had concerns and asked us to look into it,” said Fitzgerald. “It’s tragic and our thoughts and prayers are with the family.”
      Inside the house officers found four bodies who neighbors identified as Daniel Stuart, 47, his wife, Lauren, 45, and their children, Bethany, 24, and Steven, 27.
      Fitzgerald said the “perpetrator” was among the dead but would not provide details other than to stress “we think we know what happened here and there is no danger to neighbors.”
      Fitzgerald said police have recovered what is believed to be the murder weapon but would not elaborate. He said all the deaths remain under investigation.
      Keego Harbor Police Chief John Fitzgerald briefs the media on the murder-suicide. (Photo: Clarence Tabb Jr., The Detroit News)
      Neighbors John and Jackie Tristani said they awoke Friday to learn police were outside the victims’ home.
      “My son said police were repeatedly calling out ‘Lauren, come outside,’ " said John Tristani. “When she didn’t respond they (police) went inside. A few minutes later, they came back outside, shaking their heads.”
      Tristani said he had been watching television late Thursday night and never heard anything from the Stuarts' home.
      Sources close to the investigation said the family pet, a dog, was also slain by the killer. Investigators also found a note which may help explain what led up to the deaths. They would not discuss its contents.
      The deaths puzzle the Tristanis, who knew Lauren Stuart as a “hard-working” neighbor who could often be seen working in her yard and remodeled the house largely on her own.
      “She would often come over and borrow tools – a saw, a pickaxe – whatever,” said Tristani. “She was always doing something.”
      The Tristanis said in one of their first meetings with Lauren Stuart a few years ago she attempted to “recruit” them into the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
      “I said we were Catholics and weren’t interested,” he said. “She accepted the answer and it was the end of that.”
      Lauren Stuart worked at an area gym, he said, and her husband was involved in some form of medical business in the Ann Arbor area.
      Darlene and Dennis Buck, who live a block away on Cass Lake Road, said they were enroute home from a trip to northern Michigan when they learned of the murder-suicide.
      “We have lived here since ’74 and nothing like this has ever happened in our neighborhood — not even close,” said Darlene Buck.
      Jackie Tristani said she found it all “scary” – not just the deaths but that something might have been going on in a neighbor’s home without her knowledge. She had tried to get Bethany a job at her workplace and her son knew both Bethany and Steven. There was never any mention or indication of trouble inside the home, she said.
      “I would hope that if there was a problem inside there someone would have reached out, we would have tried to help,” she said, her voice quaking. “Maybe we could have done something.
      “But you never really know everything there is about your neighbors, do you?”
      http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/oakland-county/2018/02/16/4-dead-keego-harbor-murder-suicide/345756002/
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