RECLAIMED VOICES new letter to JW brothers and sisters.

[Anna]

 @Shiwiii @Jay Iza @Srecko Sostar please read carefully what @JOHN BUTLER  posted on November 18th 2018: and ask yourselves,: should John report this to the police and/or social services? Or is it just me, @Outta Here and @JW Insider and (maybe others like @Arauna @TrueTomHarley)who think John should report it? 

I have been given this information :-

Somewhere between 18 months to 2 years ago, a young man that is a member of Honiton Congregation (my ex congregation) committed a sexual offence against a young girl that would have been around 7 or 8 years old at that time.. 

The young man was visiting the home of this child and he went up to the girl's bedroom and asked the girl to have sex with him. I do not think that sexual intercourse took place but from the information that I've been given, he laid her on the bed and got on top of her and 'humped' her as if he were having sexual intercourse with her.  

The incident was reported to the Elders and the police were not informed. I have no idea what action the Elders took but the congregation were not informed.

The young man ( who's name I have ) would have been in his very early twenties at the time, but his mental age is lower. He is a bit slow in learning things and possibly has mental disorders. That is not meant as an insult, but i do know this young man personally and he does act a bit strange sometimes and frightens people.  

The young man's father was a single dad of three children ( i knew this man quite well ), but he invited a foreign lady (a sister in the JW Org) over to the UK, and they married. The marriage did not go well as the woman wanted to 'be the boss'. They split up and she went back to her country of origin. But then she came back to have a 'second try' at the marriage.  I do not know the marriage situation at this time. However the whole issue would have been totally upsetting for the three children, especially for this young man that found it difficult to cope with some situations. 

The person that gave me this information, in my opinion, is completely trustworthy, and once again in my opinion, would not have any reason for making up a 'story'. As I was given the young man's name, and i know the young man and his father, it all seems quite genuine to me.

Now i come back to the duty of care.  For, in my opinion, it is the duty of anyone that has any information concerning child abuse to report it to the police. 

This could be just a one off incident, but it could be the start of a young man becoming a pedophile. I honestly don't know where my duty is here. 

The young girl that was the victim of this assault may need help getting over the situation. The information was also that the father of the victim does not want 'any trouble'. Hence he did not want the police involved. That helped the Elders to keep it secret, well almost. 

Now this young man may commit sexual assault again, within the JW congregation or outside of it.  And that young lady will be in fear of him and yet still have to attend that Kingdom hall where she will see him every week. 

So should i report what i have been told to the police or not ? Of course I would have to tell the police it is only third hand information.

BUT, if the police could get hold of the 'records' / paperwork from the Kingdom hall regarding the incident, then it would be proved as true. 

I do not expect that the Elders would willingly hand over paperwork, so I've no idea how it would work out in the end. But it's my actions that I'm concerned about here , my responsabilites. What should i do ?  

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John, I know that at least three people, including myself advised you to go to report this to the police or social services and we were disturbed and still are that you are so reluctant to go. It is obvious to me that this "young man" may pose a real danger to children. I do not wish to be insulting either, but it is well known that people with mental retardation tend to have a higher than normal sexual drive and they may not have the same moral restraints as other people.

 

The rest of the post can be found here:

 

 

[Arauna]

It is the father's duty to report it   The girl needs attention for allowing it .... it seems to have been consensual.  How old she was I cannot determine.   The problem is that children do get up to serious mischief because of curiosity (especially in the young phallic stage of life).

I know of children that were playing together and a lot of touching went on with young boys (one family) and girls from another family  (parents were talking too much and not watching). It caused  a rift in the congregation because the parents were blaming each other because their children 'would not have started it.'   And the maturity is often not there to sort it out and leave it behind..... people go on talking about it over and over.

The law states that lawyers and preachers have "confidentiality" regarding confessions.....  (I wish they will change this clause but as far as I know it has not changed - and in various countries it may vary.).  It seems to protect people who need a "confidant"  but also makes it hard for elders.  They may be personally liable for breech of confidence.... and they should be there for people who want to confess a sin. 

The elders most probably told the father of the girl to report it and he refused to.    I do not see the age of the young man... was he under age?  Under law this is a factor.

I know of a young man (he was about 13 at the time) who touched his cousin inappropriately and it was reported to authorities.  He went to 'special' school  and he has been branded a child molester for the rest of his life.  Curious young men do get into trouble unfortunately....      I would say - the young man in the above saga  also needs  serious attention because this was not just touching  (which is porneia).

I guess the elders worked with him and he now realizes what serious thing he did even though he is "slow". The girl too - she will now know she was involved with something unacceptable in the congregation.

The elders will keep an eye on him - the problem comes when he moves - the elders may put this on his card.... Not sure about this.

The awful thing about this is - that people keep talking and those who are the parents - do nothing.   Both parents should have been advised what to do (and usually they are advised )but decided not to take the responsibility upon themselves because it brings a lot of legal and social welfare repercussions.  So they rather blame elders - it usually is the case. No-one takes the responsibility themselves.

Mr. Butler could have gone to the elders and told them what he heard and told them that he wants to report it to the police because the father did not.... and take it from there....  but he himself does not want to get involved but just blames the elders.  There is nothing in his way to do this.  But he knows he is also acting upon "hearsay" and has no evidence to support his claim.  

Our duty is to uphold the law of the land except when it clashes with the law of Jehovah. 

The irony of this is this:  Jehovah's people have high standards and we freak out over this while the world is deteriorating fast.

I read yesterday that New jersey is now offering transgender birth certificates. Children and sex rings are being abused everywhere and it is prevalent in the highest echelons of society - but well covered up.  This is why the age of consent is getting younger and younger.

In Europe a girl of ten can now get married and have sex.   A high supreme court case in Germany recently overturned an Islamic case.  So what is happening now is that Sharia law is now eroding the values of established western law.  Germans are held to the regular law and Sharia law for immigrants.  This makes the countries' law useless because now any girl can be targeted which reaches ten. 

If it is now reported to a police station they basically - DO nothing!    In England the child sex rings have been exposed one after another and it is not in the media because of "islamophobia" .  There was one case where a father went to the police station and begged them to do something and was turned away. .......   NO law enforcement - no rule of law and no justice..... welcome to the new reality..... 

[Anna]

47 minutes ago, Arauna said:

  I do not see the age of the young man... was he under age?  

 

2 hours ago, Anna said:

The young man ( who's name I have ) would have been in his very early twenties at the time, 

 

[Evacuated]

13 hours ago, Anna said:

@JOHN BUTLER  posted on November 18th 2018:...........  "For, in my opinion, it is the duty of anyone that has any information concerning child abuse to report it to the police." 

This is a quote from the original poster who subsequently asks for the opinion of others.. The opinion of others can only be Yes, No, or Maybe. As this is a UK issue, there is a moral, not legal, duty, for an informed third party to report such matters to a suitable authority. In view of the intimate knowledge this alleger claims to have,  the option was suggested that they discuss the matter anonymously with Childline on a Freephone number 0800 1111.

What is particularly odious about the whole exchange is that the party in question is vociferously complaining and making allegations about others who, in their opinion, "cover up" such cases.

Consider:

• An allegation has been made.The accuser has given their opinion as above.
• Others have expressed their varied opinions. 
• An option that would report the matter to a suitable authority, anonymously, has been given.
• Yet the alleger continues to dither, continues to accuse others of the same moral hypocrisy. 
• The alleged potential for further harm remains.

This person, regardless of status, is appearing to behave like an active part of the problem they are continually complaining about. Why is there even a discussion on the matter?

[Arauna]

Has he been confirmed to have a mental disability?   All these questions are important.  How old was the girl at the time....

A sin was committed here.  For Jehovah's people this is serious  because we do not allow these kind of things.  

There are countries in the world where "thigh-ing is legally permitted"  in the religion on children as young as one years old.  

I am sure the elders dealt with in on a spiritual level and are watching him - in my mind there is no doubt about it. They are spiritual shepherds and look to the cleanliness of the congregation. That is all.  

Did the girl testify as to what did happen? ... or is it rumor?    

The congregation will never be informed of  a case.....  whether there was adultery, bad behavior or other stuff.  We are not supposed to know other peoples business. ..... this is why they do not give a reason why someone was put outside of the congregation.      

Do you know if the young man showed repentance?  This is an important factor for not putting someone out of the congregation.  Any form of rebelliousness is a sign of wanting to follow your own way. .... and is a sure sign that he will persist in his way.   yet, he may look repentant and yet go and do it again.... but time will tell.

One cannot assume that he will do it again ...... but it sounds as if he has a problem because he seemed to have been just intent on the act. So there may be mental shortcomings.

Has the girl spoken about it?   If she is old enough she can go to the police herself.   Or she can  wait until 10 years has passed and instead of making a case against the boy and her negligent  father - she will claim thousands of dollars from the organization....  

Where was the father in all of this?  That is my question.  How does a family male friend go into your daughters room alone with her?  What kind of people are they to allow a 21 year old to enter a girl's room and close a door? And what was he doing there alone when the father was not there?

The father must be held accountable not the elders.  Why is he not reporting it himself? 

 

[Arauna]

21 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

Why is there even a discussion on the matter?

Yes - the alleger himself sounds very bias and confused.  He has done nothing himself but is also complaining about it all the time..... He understands what he will get involved in if he does.

It will be an interesting test in UK..... because there are numerous cities  where gangs have been operating more than 15 years and have been exposed when the [police could not keep it under wraps any longer....  - the police were aware of it and did NOTHING.... eve when parents went to them.   One whistleblower went to prison for 6 years for exposing them publicly  as Muslims....... Hate speech laws are now stronger than any other felony....  

Since this young man is not a Muslim he will definitely have the full wrath of the law upon him and the elders will too!  ......it will become a widely publicized case to prove that JWs are really rotten people..... 

But what must be done must be done.  So someone can assist the young girl to make a case against the young man.....and inform the father that it is going to be done so he can go with if he wants to. ..... If he is smart he will because the elders have told him to do so....of that I have no doubt.  That is what could be done to follow the law which is on the books.  

 

[Srecko Sostar]

13 hours ago, Anna said:

That's why I said:

But my response and reason for giving this example was because you wanted to know: " if it is so as this declaration No 10 say, than WHY elders must contact Legal Department first on how this purely religious proceeding must continue. ??

What i want to accent is this: If victim speaking with 3 men only on purely religious basis, then they not need some extra instructions from WT lawyers. We all know very well what is purpose of it, if lawyers are involved.

Justification for need of some extra instructions can be, by my opinion, in fact how such instructions/advises can be provide only from some more mature elders who has been in such/similar situations before, or who are more intellectually, emotionally and spiritually empowered to provide some better help/safety for victims.

And If we take what Asch said, how elders in JW congregations exists just for giving/providing only spiritual safety then again - what lawyers have with this conversations between 4,5 of them in KH?! Why we have to hear calls for 1 Amendment about this issue ??!!  

Because something is not right in all that.

[Srecko Sostar]

13 hours ago, Anna said:

One more thing on that Srecko; the lawyer Zalkin has hundreds of files (in his words) from WT in his office, that he is not allowed to show to anyone by law*. So WT have given him many more documents, more than he needed.

* why doesn't he make them public if it would help victims? Because he would immediately lose his license as a lawyer for breaching the confidentiality law. (or as you say secret). So he doesn't want to risk that of course.

I think how primary  reason for "ban" in making them public is because the plaintiff and the defendant found third way. Settlement out Court. I do not know how Zalkin get documents.

Zalkin must play in these way, because Court ordered him to do so. So, he obey Secular Law. Right or justice, question is now! Agree how revealing of this and other WT documents would put more light on events. 

[Arauna]

12 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

We all know very well what is purpose of it, if lawyers are involved

If you have run a global organization then I will talk with you again.  Every country has its own laws and in most countries where there are laws against child sex abuse there is no follow up.   America and Australia are two countries who still follow up but this is becoming harder as Laws in the countries are being eroded.

South Africa has the best laws in the world but there is no longer law and order.   Murders, corruption, killings, robbery are not even followed up - only in high profile cases.  Children are abused daily in the schools by their own teachers to get marks to pass. They have the highest rape statistic in the world (of countries who report this).

It is easy to criticize a world wide organization who use lawyers.  But each country has different laws and the lawyers will apply the laws of the country.  If the rape can be proved and the level of violence established then a person will be put out of the congregation even if the laws of the country are weak. 

BUT this is one of the hardest crimes to prove.... because it is always hidden.

[Arauna]

There are politicians involved in sex rings in UK, EU and USA and it is covered up.  In the end - Jehovah is the judge.  People who think they can get away with crimes will face Jehovah - soon.

IN Germany young girls and little boys are regularly raped and groped.  Most cases are not followed up.  And there are court cases which are totally absurd.  A woman in a wheel chair in Sweden - case was thrown out because she did " not give enough resistance".   Germany: a woman is facing charges because she defended herself against a rapist.  The world is getting totally blinded by satan - and the ones who are assisting this are the judges and the police who get their orders "from above" - that is if they value their jobs.

I watched a video where one of the highest authorities in England - a woman who exposed crimes against children - in her capacity as the head of a large government agency was hounded by the entire police and judicial system.  It was heart breaking to hear how they put her in prison under false names so her family did not know where she was.... she lost her house,  job and everything she had worked for her whole life.  This is the kind of justice that is going on behind the scenes.   Satan is literally not ruling behind the scenes any more -  he is absolutely openly running everything through his human power-seekers!

This is not a fabrication !  It is really going on.  The truth is hidden by all the lies that are now in the public domain.  Some of the true stories sound more like fabricated stories and the lies are believed as truth.

[Srecko Sostar]

16 hours ago, Anna said:

Elders are not the police. So now you want them to act like the police?

They are sort of "spiritual police", we can not denied this part of their role in congregation. in the past all appointments has have to be approved by WT USA. Recently they gave that in hand of Circuit Overseer (is title correct?) So, if Overseer made bad choice, no one can blame GB and Headquarter in US. Local "marshals" will have to take all blame for bad choice of elders. 

[Srecko Sostar]

15 hours ago, Anna said:

This is irrelevant. You are making the mistake of mixing two separate things together. You do not need two witnesses to make a report to the police. This is only for congregational action.

For secular police not, you are right. But for inside "Police", victims must have two witnesses. No change, no progress. This is not good, because Bible told us about examples where you do not need two witness for making "justified" allegation/accusation.