RECLAIMED VOICES new letter to JW brothers and sisters.

[JOHN BUTLER]

I can clearly see that @Anna is doing her very best to go OFF TOPIC. 

She sees me as an easy target, which she thinks will distract people from the EARTHWIDE CHILD ABUSE within the JW ORGANISATION.

She also tries to pretend that it is all about ABUSE IN THE PAST. Not true of course as many recent cases seem to be coming to light. 

And those victims from the past 50 years are still suffering. It's a lifetime thing, it does not go away. 

Does anyone have a follow up on the English translation of the BLUE LETTERS topic ? 

It might just add a bit more fuel to the fire  

By the way Anna it seems to have been proven that Elders deliberately destroy 'notes' / paperwork about Child Abuse accusations, so that when Police ask for the evidence it's 'no longer available'. So I would not go and warn the elders anyway. Why would i want to give them chance to destroy evidence ?  If I did take any action it would be to go directly to the Police, but it is doubtful that I will.  

[Anna]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If it is so as this declaration No 10 say, than WHY elders must contact Legal Department first on how this purely religious proceeding must continue. ??

This is why Srecko: Let's think of a hypothetical situation in your case (this can be very real). Let's say your older brother sexually molested you when you were young. You never told anybody, but now you feel you should tell the elders because your brother is JW. But you don't want to go to the police, because you know it would kill your mother, (who is old and sick) and devastate your father. You love them both very much. You go to the elders and tell them you have some important information regarding sexual assault when you were young. If they know they are mandated reporters (I don't know the law in Croatia) they will tell you that whatever you tell them, they will have to tell the police. So you have a choice. To tell them or not to tell them, or how much to tell them.  It is up to you. Now if the law of Croatia does not mandate people to inform the police, then you can tell them the situation, and also tell them you do not want the police involved, you just want the congregation to be informed to protect the children in that congregation. 

Now think of America. Every state has its own laws, which change regularly, and not everyone knows them. When the elders call the legal department they are told about the reporting laws of that particular state. The legal department is very familiar with the law and any changes because that is their job. Now the elders can go back to the one who wants to tell them about an abuse, and they can inform him/her of the situation and leave it up to the person to tell them as much as they want. I am sure you, as the victim,  would appreciate to be informed of that choice.

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Your respond on John's post is how things he mentioned is from past, in 1980 es.

That's because it is true, the examples he gave were from the past. He said elders were allowed to work with children alone. This never happens anymore (since at least the late 90's).

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

ARC is from 2015 and WT elders in Australia are very bad role model as those elders from 1980 period. No progress was made in benefit for victims. All because of money and WTJWorg Corporation Public Picture.

Yes, ARC is from 2015, and as you say, again talking about things from the past. But I don't understand the rest of your sentence. How do you mean no progress was made in benefit for the victims? Can you please explain that. With some proof to back up your claim.

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

According to your brother Asch in his deposition, he made this CLEAR DISTINCTION about PHYSICAL SAFETY and SPIRITUAL SAFETY and how WT GB and their Lawyers defending themselves and their money and their Organizational Honor.

Please, if you are going to say this, back it up with quotes from the deposition.

[Srecko Sostar]

31 minutes ago, Anna said:

Please, if you are going to say this, back it up with quotes from the deposition.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

42 minutes ago, Anna said:

How do you mean no progress was made in benefit for the victims?

Did WT made change about need for TWO witnesses?

Did WT allow that sisters/women be present in investigation process as support for male and especially female minors victims and other victims  no matter of ages? 

Did WT allow that sister/women be involved in Judicial process that involve sex crimes and domestic violence inside and outside family environment when female victims are involved? 

Did WT open secret files and fully cooperate with police and Courts?

.....etc.

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

54 minutes ago, Anna said:

This is why Srecko: Let's think of a hypothetical situation ....

What would it be if it were happened.....

We do not need this imagination because we have real people with real events dear Anna.

[Anna]

 

Let’s put a few things into perspective:

1) A survivor of a sexual attack (JW or Non JW) is NEVER obligated to report the assault to the Police. Never.

2). A JW survivor of a sexual attack (if perpetrator is JW) is scripturally obligated to report this to the Elders in the same way that someone finding out about adultery is scripturally obligated to tell the elders so the wicked man can be removed:  1 Corinthians 5:9-12. And vs 5 “you must hand such a man over to Satan” and (Deutoronomy 17:7) “you must remove what is bad from your midst”. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that if wrongdoing in a congregation was covered up, then Jehovah would remove his spirit from that congregation. A congregation must be kept morally clean.

3) If the law of the land does not obligate second parties to inform the Police, then the reporting can be left to the first party.

4) If the law of the land obligates second parties (or anyone who learns of merely an allegation) to report to the police, then they will and must report to the police. (John Butler!)

With this information, please use your intelligence to figure out the various scenarios possible in the case of child sexual molestation.

 

 

 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

 Quote @Anna  "....you just want the congregation to be informed to protect the children in that congregation. "

I don't think it is possible to instruct the Elders that you want the congregation to be informed.... As far as I am aware the Elders DO NOT INFORM the congregation that there is a Pedophile within it. They certainly would not name the Pedophile. 

And it seems you are advising the idea of hiding a Pedophile within the JW Org, which is one of the things I've been saying from square one.  By not informing the police it would be hiding that Pedophile in that congregation. It would also be protecting a criminal. 

Quite strange really as this is what you are accusing me of, failing in my duty to report it.  But in this 'hypothetical situation' he would have first hand evidence, therefore be more entitled to report it, and more morally duty bound to do so. 

But also, are you saying that the Elders are not bound by scripture / service to God, to report it to the police, even if there is no 'law' of the land to do so ? Are you suggesting that those men (Elders) who, you would say, are chosen by God or Jesus Christ, through Holy Spirit,  yet are not bound to care for the safety of people inside and outside the JW Org ? Is there not obligation for such ones to care for widows and orphans, and little children within and outside the Org if it is possible for them to do so. 

[Anna]

37 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

 

 

“Within the congregation, ours is a spiritual protection...we are talking about physical protection, that is up to the secular authorities to provide”

Well yes! Do you hear anyone arguing that point? No, because it is true! You yourself have said the Elders are not the police. So now you want them to act like the police?

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

8 minutes ago, Anna said:

 

Let’s put a few things into perspective:

1) A survivor of a sexual attack (JW or Non JW) is NEVER obligated to report the assault to the Police. Never.

2). A JW survivor of a sexual attack (if perpetrator is JW) is scripturally obligated to report this to the Elders in the same way that someone finding out about adultery is scripturally obligated to tell the elders so the wicked man can be removed:  1 Corinthians 5:9-12. And vs 5 “you must hand such a man over to Satan” and (Deutoronomy 17:7) “you must remove what is bad from your midst”. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that if wrongdoing in a congregation was covered up, then Jehovah would remove his spirit from that congregation. A congregation must be kept morally clean.

3) If the law of the land does not obligate second parties to inform the Police, then the reporting can be left to the first party.

4) If the law of the land obligates second parties (or anyone who learns of merely an allegation) to report to the police, then they will and must report to the police. (John Butler!)

With this information, please use your intelligence to figure out the various scenarios possible in the case of child sexual molestation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is so funny to see you hide behind the law of the land when it suits you. 

I'll ask you again, are the ELDERS that JW's presume are in their place chosen by God's Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ, not obligated SPIRITUALLY to protect those inside and outside the JW org ? 

I'm sure there must be scriptures to tell us that Elders are obligated in their service to GOD, to hand such ones over to the superior authorities. 

And for you to compare JW to non JW is quite strange. JW's are 'supposed' to be serving God not men. 

Therefore their obligation is totally different and instructions come from God's word not men's. 

As far as I am aware the law here in the UK does not compel me to report it. As I've mentioned before the new laws I've read about seem to be concerning people in 'professional' positions, such as teachers and social workers. 

[Anna]

30 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Elders DO NOT INFORM the congregation that there is a Pedophile within it. They certainly would not name the Pedophile. 

11. If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse is repentant and will remain in the
congregation, restrictions are imposed on the individual’s congregation activities. The individual will
be specifically admonished by the elders not to be alone in the company of children, not to cultivate
friendships with children, or display any affection for children. In addition, elders will inform parents
of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual

30 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And it seems you are advising the idea of hiding a Pedophile within the JW Org, 

Yes John, I want all those little children in your congregation to be molested

30 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

By not informing the police it would be hiding that Pedophile in that congregation. It would also be protecting a criminal. 

Quite strange really as this is what you are accusing me of, failing in my duty to report it.  But in this 'hypothetical situation' he would have first hand evidence, therefore be more entitled to report it, and more morally duty bound to do so. 

Keep making excuses. Heck John, give me one of your elders emails and I will tell them myself!

 

30 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But also, are you saying that the Elders are not bound by scripture / service to God, to report it to the police, even if there is no 'law' of the land to do so ?

Correct, they are not bound by scripture if there is no law to report to the police. They are only bound by scripture to deal with it in the congregation. It is not in their jurisdiction to go beyond what the survivor/victim wants. If the survivor/victim does not want it reported, and it is not the law for them to do so, then the elders have no obligation to report scripturally or secularly. HOWEVER if the elders discern that other children, or the victim is still in danger, then the elders will take it upon themselves to report to the police. But this is left to their discretion and their own conscience. In other instances they may actually be advised by the branch to report even if there is no legal duty to do so.

5. When elders learn of an accusation of child abuse, they immediately consult with the branch
office of Jehovah’s Witnesses to ensure compliance with child abuse reporting laws. (Romans 13:1)
Even if the elders have no legal duty to report an accusation to the authorities, the branch office of Jehovah’s
Witnesses will instruct the elders to report the matter if a minor is still in danger of abuse or
there is some other valid reason. Elders also ensure that the victim’s parents are informed of an accusation
of child abuse. If the alleged abuser is one of the victim’s parents, the elders will inform the
other parent.

30 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

  yet are not bound to care for the safety of people inside and outside the JW Org ? Is there not obligation for such ones to care for widows and orphans, and little children within and outside the Org if it is possible for them to do so. 

Yes, of course, it is the elders obligation. But there is only so much they can reasonably do, as you say "if it is possible for them to do so".

[Srecko Sostar]

29 minutes ago, Anna said:

With this information, please use your intelligence to figure out the various scenarios possible in the case of child sexual molestation.

If conversation about this issue can make frustration of sort inside this circle of us who talking from distance to each other, imagine what heavy and hard and painful it is for those who experienced this things and must be in face to face situation ! 

[Anna]

59 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Did WT made change about need for TWO witnesses?

This is irrelevant. You are making the mistake of mixing two separate things together. You do not need two witnesses to make a report to the police. This is only for congregational action.

59 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Did WT allow that sisters/women be present in investigation process as support for male and especially female minors victims and other victims  no matter of ages? 

9. Elders never require victims of child abuse to present their accusation in the presence of the
alleged abuser. However, victims who are now adults may do so, if they wish. In addition, victims can
be accompanied by a confidant of either gender for moral support when presenting their accusation to
the elders. If a victim prefers, the accusation can be submitted in the form of a written statement

59 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Did WT allow that sister/women be involved in Judicial process that involve sex crimes and domestic violence inside and outside family environment when female victims are involved? 

No, and they never will because it is not scriptural.

59 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Did WT open secret files and fully cooperate with police and Courts?

Yes, WT always hands over any necessary confidential documentation pertaining to a case. WT will not hand over confidential documentation that has nothing to do with a specific case. The supreme court agreed with WT on that. (Any $4,000 fines per day were reversed and removed).