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JOHN BUTLER

RECLAIMED VOICES new letter to JW brothers and sisters.

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1 minute ago, Shiwiii said:

Romans13

1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

 

How come this does not come into the minds of jws when talking about CSA and the authorities? 

You are funny. This is what we have been talking about. When the law of the land "the authorities" obligate a person who has heard of an allegation of CSA to report to the authorities, then JWs will report to the authorities.

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12 minutes ago, Anna said:

This is irrelevant. You are making the mistake of mixing two separate things together. You do not need two witnesses to make a report to the police. This is only for congregational action.

so why doesn't the policy state to bring it up to the police? 

Would they if it was murder?     it is in a sense murder, murder of their innocence. 

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Just now, Anna said:

You are funny. This is what we have been talking about. When the law of the land "the authorities" obligate a person who has heard of an allegation of CSA to report to the authorities, then JWs will report to the authorities.

so jws have to wait until forced to what is good? 

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3 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Romans 13 says they are bound by means of doing what is good. 

Yes. And that is what they will try to do.

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1 minute ago, Shiwiii said:

so jws have to wait until forced to what is good? 

Of course not. You were the one making the point.

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Just now, Anna said:

Yes. And that is what they will try to do.

only if forced by the law of the land, otherwise.....SHHhhhhhhhh  don't tell anyone because it will make jehovah sad. 

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1 minute ago, Anna said:

Of course not. You were the one making the point.

actually no, YOU said it. 

 

4 minutes ago, Anna said:

When the law of the land "the authorities" obligate a person who has heard of an allegation of CSA to report to the authorities, then JWs will report to the authorities.

 

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3 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

so why doesn't the policy state to bring it up to the police? 

 

Do you have to be told??  I thought you said one does not have to be told these things. Even the police do not tell a survivor/victim they have to talk to them (the police).

 

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10 minutes ago, Anna said:
14 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

How come this does not come into the minds of jws when talking about CSA and the authorities? 

You are funny. This is what we have been talking about. When the law of the land "the authorities" obligate a person who has heard of an allegation of CSA to report to the authorities, then JWs will report to the authorities.

You are the one that brought it up

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Based on your statement and the word "obligate" 

    Hello guest!

Synonyms for obligate
require
constrain
oblige
bind
force
restrain
restrict
astrict
indebt

 

Just now, Anna said:

Do you have to be told??  I thought you said one does not have to be told these things. Even the police do not tell a survivor/victim they have to talk to them (the police).

common sense says no, but now were dealing with people who cannot think for themselves because the gb has told them otherwise. 

I understand, your org is precious and when outsiders (government commissions included) point out things that are just plain WRONG, it hurts your view of right and wrong. Its called cognitive dissonance.  

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5 minutes ago, Anna said:

You are funny. This is what we have been talking about. When the law of the land "the authorities" obligate a person who has heard of an allegation of CSA to report to the authorities, then JWs will report to the authorities.

In one hand your word is right Anna, but Shiwiii have better argument because Natural Law, or if you like Bible verses, have stronger argument, and that is; ..... do what is good in your eyes, by your conscious, what is good before people and before God, obey God more than men. Or if you want Ultimate and Final bible text about ALL things in LIFE ----- Love your neighbor as yourself.  

 

...so what ever GB or WT Manual Book or lawyer or Court or police say .....do love  .... and do find the way. 

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1 minute ago, Srecko Sostar said:

In one hand your word is right Anna, but Shiwiii have better argument because Natural Law, or if you like Bible verses, have stronger argument, and that is; ..... do what is good in your eyes, by your conscious, what is good before people and before God, obey God more than men. Or if you want Ultimate and Final bible text about ALL things in LIFE ----- Love your neighbor as yourself.  

 

...so what ever GB or WT Manual Book or lawyer or Court or police say .....do love  .... and do find the way. 

Yes. No argument against that.

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2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

We do not need this imagination because we have real people with real events dear Anna.

That's why I said:

3 hours ago, Anna said:

Let's think of a hypothetical situation in your case (this can be very real)

But my response and reason for giving this example was because you wanted to know: " if it is so as this declaration No 10 say, than WHY elders must contact Legal Department first on how this purely religious proceeding must continue. ??

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1 hour ago, Anna said:
2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Did WT open secret files and fully cooperate with police and Courts?

Yes, WT always hands over any necessary confidential documentation pertaining to a case. WT will not hand over confidential documentation that has nothing to do with a specific case. The supreme court agreed with WT on that. (Any $4,000 fines per day were reversed and removed).

One more thing on that Srecko; the lawyer Zalkin has hundreds of files (in his words) from WT in his office, that he is not allowed to show to anyone by law*. So WT have given him many more documents, more than he needed.

* why doesn't he make them public if it would help victims? Because he would immediately lose his license as a lawyer for breaching the confidentiality law. (or as you say secret). So he doesn't want to risk that of course.

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@Anna you have been well trained (brain washed) by the JW org.  I do hope nothing of these sorts ever happens to you or your family. 

Yes I'm sure you would tell my local elders if i gave you their phone numbers, tell them to destroy evidence that is. 

i didn't find that piece of paper with the details on, maybe I destroyed it.  I honestly cannot remember the man's name, so now i have no info at all. Oh well if the Elders can destroy evidence and still think they have peace with God ...... 

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4 minutes ago, Anna said:

One more thing on that Srecko; the lawyer Zalkin has hundreds of files (in his words) from WT in his office, that he is not allowed to show to anyone by law. So WT have given him many more documents, more than he needed.

But the GB and / or their legal dept' still have 20 years worth of info' about Child Abuse accusations.  Info which they will not willingly give to the authorities. 

So what happened to the scripture about, 'if you are conscripted to walk one mile, then walk two miles' ? In other words, give much more than you are asked for.  I said it so many times but you and others will not listen. It is not about the legal obligation, it is about doing what is right in the eyes of GOD. 

If the apostle Paul made it sooo clear about a man having sex with his father's wife, then how much more so about a man having sex with a very young child. That is why you need the TRUE Anointed running the Organisation, not a fake GB. 

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3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So what happened to the scripture about, 'if you are conscripted to walk one mile, then walk two miles' ? In other words, give much more than you are asked for.  I said it so many times but you and others will not listen. It is not about the legal obligation, it is about doing what is right in the eyes of GOD. 

What nonsense. Has it not occurred to you that just as you are concerned about slander and defamation, then so are the elders. You know you cannot just nilly willy hand out confidential information about others. So you are not willing to do it yourself, to go that extra mile, why? You don't know anything about the information the elders have in your congregation at all. You don't even know whether they went to the police or not. Everything you say about your elders and the case are just assumptions.  And you just keep making one excuse after another for why you will not go to secular authorities. If you don't want to go to the police, or the elders, why don't you at least go to social services? I mean I am hoping you are worried about the perpetrator molesting someone else. Or are you not worried?

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2 hours ago, Jay Iza said:

This makes me laugh, making excuses why or not a child molester or a sexual crime should or shouldnt be expose to the authorities or the congregation to safe guard others..... oh well.... 

It's not a laughing matter and it's not that simple. It would be great if it was! By your comment I can see that you have never had any experience with something as complex as this. In fact it shows me you have absolutely no idea. Why don't you at least do some reading up on the subject, to educate yourself, before you make thoughtless sweeping statements like this.

Here are a few things to start you off:

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

Before you say that these articles apply to social workers, therapists only,  you need to realize that disclosures made to elders are no different, and that elders experience the same dilemmas because the information given to them may be the same as that given to social workers, therapists etc.

 

 

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4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

' still have 20 years worth of info' about Child Abuse accusations.  Info which they will not willingly give to the authorities. 

You have absolutely no idea how this works in the real world do you? Having 20 years worth of child abuse accusations is of absolutely no use to the authorities unless the survivor/victim makes a report to them first. When a report is made to the authorities  by survivor/victim it is taken to court and the courts ask for any reports made, then the reports are handed over.

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