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Arauna

Fossils are not millions of years old

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I left this discussion last year because the fight over semantics was so stupid. Anyone who believes the universe came from nothing or believes that something comes from nothing - one cannot argue with people like that - not worth the effort. It is a totally unscientific statement and even if you say you are a scientist 1000 times, it does not make you a scientist who bases your conclusion on evidence if you really "believe" that statement. To say that a cell "appears" to be designed proves the simplicity of the mind or proves incomprehension or lack of study of the complexity of the cell itself. Nano-biotechnology has proven the complexity. IN any case there are now many papers which prove that collagen, blood vessels and more than 10 proteins have been found together with Carbon 14 in fossils. These samples have been taken on numerous different fossils and every time there is the same result (repeated tests) without contamination.... This proves the fossils are only thousands of years old and not millions.

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2 hours ago, Arauna said:

I left this discussion last year because the fight over semantics was so stupid. Anyone who believes the universe came from nothing or believes that something comes from nothing - one cannot argue with people like that - not worth the effort. It is a totally unscientific statement and even if you say you are a scientist 1000 times, it does not make you a scientist who bases your conclusion on evidence if you really "believe" that statement. To say that a cell "appears" to be designed proves the simplicity of the mind or proves incomprehension or lack of study of the complexity of the cell itself. Nano-biotechnology has proven the complexity. IN any case there are now many papers which prove that collagen, blood vessels and more than 10 proteins have been found together with Carbon 14 in fossils. These samples have been taken on numerous different fossils and every time there is the same result (repeated tests) without contamination.... This proves the fossils are only thousands of years old and not millions.

Can you explain this comment to me in more simple terms please, I'm only a poorly educated man. 

I've always believed that God created everything. I presumed he turned energy into matter. ( I'm not scientific in any way ). 

As for 'scientists', scientist is only a word, and to be one you need worldly wisdom not the wisdom from God, so being a 'scientist' doesn't mean much when viewing things from God's perspective does it ?  I've always thought 'scientists' would find the result they are being paid to find, 'he who pays the piper calls the tune'. 

When i first learnt the JW beliefs i was taught that each Creative day was 7,000 years long. However the teaching seems to be now that they have no idea how long a creative day was. This was one of my first points of disappointment with the JW Org, this 'change of mind' 'Change of direction'. It brings us back to the inspired / not inspired / guess work problem. 

I know nothing about Carbon dating, but aren't the scrolls / parchments dated somehow ? 

Although I'm no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses, i am still a Christian. I still believe that Almighty God is the Creator of all things good, and that Jesus Christ is God's son and he fulfilled the ransom price. Hence I pray to God through Christ and still read God's word. 

Everyone knows why i left the org, but I have never said ALL of its teachings are wrong. However when the GB / Org changes its mind on things that are the foundation of its beliefs, then the complete religion becomes unstable. 

Are you now suggesting that the old belief of each Creative day being 7,000 years long, may be true ? 

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1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for 'scientists', scientist is only a word, and to be one you need worldly wisdom not the wisdom from God, so being a 'scientist' doesn't mean much when viewing things from God's perspective does it ?  I've always thought 'scientists' would find the result they are being paid to find, 'he who pays the piper calls the tune'.

This is a good point. In fact, most of the things you have said in your post coincide with things I have also believed. It should be pointed out though that scientists, at least those who deal with sociological issues are quick to point out that there has been more profit for many millennia in claiming that one has wisdom from God. Those who have been paying science pipers get pretty much the same answer from 99% of them, but those who have been paying the god's-wisdom pipers have been getting thousands of divergent answers from 99% of them. 

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

When i first learnt the JW beliefs i was taught that each Creative day was 7,000 years long. However the teaching seems to be now that they have no idea how long a creative day was.

This is true. There was never any Biblical evidence. It was all conjecture and wishful thinking, based on nothing at all. Therefore, there is no reason to think that the creative days were the same length, nor that any of them would have been limited to less than a billion years each. Our only reason for claiming that they were not 24 hours each is that we have decided to accept some of the evidence from scientists.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Are you now suggesting that the old belief of each Creative day being 7,000 years long, may be true ? 

I won't try to answer for Arauna, but I think that many Witnesses are still concerned about the "slippery slope" of accepting scientific evidence without the approval of the Governing Body through direct statements in the Watchtower publications. I've also heard it specifically admitted by GB "representatives" that this is one of the reasons that college is considered to be so dangerous. It's because the GB and the researchers and writers of our publications don't have time to rule on every single piece of evidence, as to whether it can be accepted, rejected, or partially accepted in a re-defined chronological context. The practice at many colleges is to ask the student to evaluate the importance of various pieces of evidence, and this puts Witness students in a "bind."

For example, I know of JWs who even in High School, have decided to accept evolution in the context of their classes and reject it in the context of the congregation. One of them brought up a topic to me that I decided to look into when an opportunity arose. I knew that scientists have long theorized that birds evolved from dinosaurs based only on skeletal evidence comparing birds and dinosaurs. Then, more recently, fossils were discovered with patterns of fossilized "feathers" preserved with the skeleton in the exact places where such feathers would have been expected. This confused me, and I was sure that they were being interpreted as feathers, but were actually "ferns" or leaves or a superimposed skeleton of a separate bird. But then more of them showed up. I was at a museum on the campus of Yale university in New Haven, CT, and saw some for myself, and asked a specialist there if they could possibly be anything else. He showed me that this was not even controversial any more. There were now several of these fossils.

I would not know how to treat such evidence if I were in a class that discussed it. My father still thinks they are ferns or misinterpretations. My mother still thinks that Satan has manipulated some of the evidence from fossils. Of course, that theory is common among "Young Earth" fundamentalists, too, but it causes many more questions. If Satan can make small adjustments in the evidence, why not make bigger adjustments? Was he given a limit as to the number of adjustments he could make, and a limited number of places to bury them?

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@JW Insider Fantastic response thank you.

One big problem, I have no 'faith' in your GB any more. I'm no longer a JW and having done much 'research' I have lost all my trust in the GB. Details not needed as others will get bored with my comment. 

I do not believe the GB are the 'Faithful slave' and i do not believe they have God's guidance. 

But to balance that, I don't take for facts, the words of 'scientists' either. 

I'm still searching, and if God wants me to find answers I'm sure i will find them. 

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On 1/5/2019 at 7:38 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Everyone knows why i left the org, but I have never said ALL of its teachings are wrong.

 

On 1/5/2019 at 10:39 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

I'm still searching, and if God wants me to find answers I'm sure i will find them. 

The first issue of the Watchtower made the point that truth is truth even if it comes from the mouth of Satan the Devil. Of course, we might expect the Devil to be selective about which truth to reveal, how much of it, and then be on the lookout for ulterior motives. Same is true of truth from anywhere. I think your attitude in the above statements shows reasonableness.

You might know that I also do not think the GB are the exact equivalent of the "faithful and discreet slave" of Jesus' parable. But this does not mean that we can't learn from the GB, get spiritual food from the GB, learn to grow and mature from such food, and then grow into mature Christians ourselves who should be able to distinguish right from wrong, and move on to more mature doctrines, including "standing on our own." I think that the GB serve a purpose within the congregation. They are imperfect and should never give the impression that their word is final. As one of them has publicly admitted, this would be very presumptuous of them if they did this.

A lot of Witnesses are anxious to relieve themselves from any spiritual responsibility and push all their thinking off on others, not realizing that this was never the way Jehovah intended for any of us to worship him. So a lot of JWs effectively "worship" the GB and hang on their every word. Sometimes that reverence for the GB takes a more subtle 'tack' and we begin to think that criticism of the GB makes Satan happy. Or that questioning the GB is the same as doubting Jehovah. I won't bore you with a dozen scripture showing why this is wrong, because I suspect you already know them.

 

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

 

The first issue of the Watchtower made the point that truth is truth even if it comes from the mouth of Satan the Devil. Of course, we might expect the Devil to be selective about which truth to reveal, how much of it, and then be on the lookout for ulterior motives. Same is true of truth from anywhere. I think your attitude in the above statements shows reasonableness.

You might know that I also do not think the GB are the exact equivalent of the "faithful and discreet slave" of Jesus' parable. But this does not mean that we can't learn from the GB, get spiritual food from the GB, learn to grow and mature from such food, and then grow into mature Christians ourselves who should be able to distinguish right from wrong, and move on to more mature doctrines, including "standing on our own." I think that the GB serve a purpose within the congregation. They are imperfect and should never give the impression that their word is final. As one of them admitted, this would be very presumptuous of them if they did this.

A lot of Witnesses are anxious to relieve themselves from any spiritual responsibility and push all their thinking off on others, not realizing that this was never the way Jehovah intended for any of us to worship him. So a lot of JWs effectively "worship" the GB and hang on their every word. Sometimes that reverence for the GB takes a more subtle 'tack' and we begin to think that criticism of the GB makes Satan happy. Or that questioning the GB is the same as doubting Jehovah. I won't bore you with a dozen scripture showing why this is wrong, because I suspect you already know them.

 

But to be in the JW Org, and to openly disagree with the GB, will get a person disfellowshipped for 'Causing a division within the congregation'. A person will be called an Apostate for disagreeing with the GB especially if said person introduces ideas of their own. 

And there is also the point of conscience when going on the ministry knowing that some of the things you have to tell people are not true. For example, it has been proven that some quotes in Watchtower magazines are actually misquotes, deliberate misquotes. That amounts to lies. And I'm sorry to bore you with this, but it would be impossible to warn people inside or outside the JW Org about the serious danger of child abuse within the JW org, whilst being a member of JW Org. That would also get a person disfellowshipped.

I'm totally off topic here and I apologise for this. Where is @Arauna

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10 hours ago, Arauna said:

I left this discussion last year because the fight over semantics was so stupid. Anyone who believes the universe came from nothing or believes that something comes from nothing - one cannot argue with people like that - not worth the effort. It is a totally unscientific statement and even if you say you are a scientist 1000 times, it does not make you a scientist who bases your conclusion on evidence if you really "believe" that statement. To say that a cell "appears" to be designed proves the simplicity of the mind or proves incomprehension or lack of study of the complexity of the cell itself. Nano-biotechnology has proven the complexity. IN any case there are now many papers which prove that collagen, blood vessels and more than 10 proteins have been found together with Carbon 14 in fossils. These samples have been taken on numerous different fossils and every time there is the same result (repeated tests) without contamination.... This proves the fossils are only thousands of years old and not millions.

Dear Arauna and other readers.

quote: "Anyone who believes the universe came from nothing or believes that something comes from nothing ..."

Concept of "Nothing" is somehow unclear, indistinctive. About What one thinking when talk about existence of "nothing" and how "from nothing can not come to something" ? Who promote idea that universe came from nothing? Does "science and scientist"  promote this idea? Or, people who have faith in Bible came to this question/logic  as respond to some "scientific" explanation about life origin on Earth and origin of Universe that they found as not reasonable or possible. I do not know if theory about Big Bang is still in play, but as i can see Bib Bang thesis not promote idea of "nothing". Because for such Big Explosion is need existence of "something" to explode. 

 

quote:  "It is a totally unscientific statement and even if you say you are a scientist 1000 times, it does not make you a scientist..."

If i am not "scientist" do I have  "credential"  to discuss about "science", or just to have and express my opinion, critical thinking, criticism, feelings about subject, etc? To be in rank of "scientist" one need to have Higher Education. JW members are not , in general, scientists. Few of them are Highly educated and GB discourage members to look for such education, even to such measure to "marking" those JW who would like to go to University.

If you are not carpenter, you have nothing  to tell/teach about carpentry those people who are carpenters. Just my level of "unscientific" logic :)))  

 

quote:  "IN any case there are now many papers which prove that..."

What papers? "Scientific" magazines or some Sport magazines, or WTJWorg publications  that made quotes from some "scientific" editions, books, magazines? 

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Carbon 14 breaks down very quickly. Look it up on Wikipedia.   Mr. Butler - do not be too humble my dear.... one does not need  intelligence to understand it - one just needs to take a little time to do the research.... search and you shall find.   Jehovah's spirit helps with the rest and an honest and unbiased spirit helps to find the truth.

There are many kinds of scientists but I do not believe that evolution is a science - no scientific method to speak of and not much evidence (fossil record non-existent especially at the bottom (basis) of the evolutionary tree - also no evidence how birds developed. ... all conjecture.  There are really too many unexplained miracles (miracle: a remarkable event or development that brings  only positive consequences.)

(The Cambrium explosion shows that all species suddenly appeared fully developed.  Here is a definition of it Cambrian explosion - I quickly looked it up:  "The Cambrian explosion or Cambrian radiation was the relatively short span event, occurring approximately 541 million years ago in the Cambrian period, during which most major animal phyla appeared, as indicated by the fossil record." (Of course these dates are totally manufactured dates.... similar to the so-called pictures of the progression of man.)

Dating is also a subject that has not withstood the "science" test. There is a lot of data available in this to read.

The foundation of our belief is Jehovah and Jesus Christ and the fulfillment of the first prophecy of a seed / king that would pay the ransom and then later rule to restore the original purpose of God.  Additionally, how God worked throughout the ages to fulfill this prophecy and how he gave us a genealogy and a timeline to understand the progress of his plan. 

I did not  know that evolution versus creation was the most important subject - as you indicated in your remark.  For me the Bible is enough evidence that God exists and created everything and has a restoration plan - but evolution versus creation helps to provide the additional proof. Whether it is 7000 years or not does not change the fact that he created it all and we are now in the day of rest which is about 6000 years so far. According to Hebrews 4 there is another rest within the rest waiting - the 1000 years.

I have seen quite a few videos where the high priest of Evolution - Mr R Dawkins said that something can come from nothing.  I also have seen the audience laugh at this - which is quite right.   I also have seen him say on two occasions that 'aliens' seeded our life...... that is the extent of the evolutionists brilliant philosophy.  His book: the god delusion, has misled thousands of people and these people believe he is so smart.  When one uses the magic word 'science" these days everyone thinks it is infallible. 

I have some of my own opinions but I do not go and preach my own personal opinions because I believe the kingdom message is the most important and this is what we must preach.  There is no doubt in my mind that the faithful slave understands the kingdom government perfectly. Other Christian religions fail on this topic completely.

Mr Butler, a person can make a lot of trouble for yourself if you go and preach your own message.  Jehovah will correct all discrepancies in his own time.  If you do not trust Jehovah to correct things then you cannot be a witness and serve alongside his other servants. ... and then you may lose your everlasting life.  One cannot act in an immature way and act independently and insist you are right - it is disruptive and egotistical - anointed or not.  

I agree - the dynamic energy of Jehovah created the entire physical universe  - Isaiah 40 says that the stars came forth by his dynamic energy (projected energy).  So the physical universe did not come from nothing.  If one can put this in a human scale - I always think of Jehovah bringing forth the entire physical universe (with all its galaxies) and with its beginning of  time and  the 3 dimensions of space and all the different forces such as gravity, weak and strong force, into existence by his  dynamic energy as small as a single dust particle.  (it may have been a singularity but then the explosion would have been totally controlled to bring forth the elements in the universe)

"The big bang theory actually proved a 'beginning' so scientists quickly moved away from this and started playing with math and string theory to try to prove alternative universes (23 of them) to increase the 'chance' of life starting somewhere out there.

One need not be a scientist to understand the creation - there are many books out there written for a lay person and many books that also show the 'science delusion".  A very good one is The "devils" delusion by Dr Berlinsky which actually shows one the delusion people have about science.

People always think scientists are not driven by ambition and ego and always follow the truth -  where the facts lead.  Think again.  I do think there are some sciences which are more scientific than others but do not be mislead at what goes on behind the scenes and the reputations involved.  

To believe that one needs a science degree to understand creation is ludicrous - it is similar to the Pharisees which did not believe that Jesus or his disciples could understand the scriptures because they did not have higher education in the Mosaic law.

 

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I have written somewhere about how embarrassing it is to visit the Ithaca Museum of Earth Science with Tom Pearlsnswine and hear him muttering to himself and all in earshot the whole time about the ‘wiles of Satan’

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13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

but I think that many Witnesses are still concerned about the "slippery slope" of accepting scientific evidence without the approval of the Governing Body through direct statements in the Watchtower publications. 

To the extent that this was true, I think it is yesterday’s news.

They have interviewed Michael Behe. They wouldn’t do that if the two hated each other’s guts.

They have referred to days as epochs & the entire period as aeons. I think their aim today is to let scientists be scientists, and Bible teachers be Bible teachers.

Is it true that we cannot hold ideas that don’t entirely square with one another simultaneously without our heads short circuiting?  One look at a Pharma ad suffices to show that cognitive dissonance is overrated...with narrator insisting that you must have the stuff and voiceover saying that it may kill you.

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The bone structure of the dinosaurs fall in two categories.  Those of birds and those of reptiles.  It has never bothered me that dinosaurs with hollow bones like birds may have had feathers and would have been beautifully colorful.  Jehovah is a wonderful and generous creator. However, there have been hoaxes in the fossil bone record to try to prove how flight developed over millions of years - one in China comes to mind.

The composition of the air before the flood must have been totally different for those large birds which flew,  because our atmosphere now would not be able to carry them on thermal waves. They will drop out of the air because the effort to flap wings will exhaust them quick.

Before the flood the atmosphere had more moisture and was warmer everywhere, The water band above the earth made the planet like a comfortable tropical hothouse (not too hot) which made the poles the same temperature as the rest of the earth. After the flood the poles froze and snow may even have formed immediately during the flood.

I was fascinated when I visited natural history museums, especially with my roots in Africa. When in England I looked at the great variety of mammal-dinosaurs and many of them looked  like the replicas of animals we have today - only much larger.  They were not much different to existing animals today.  This has stuck with me - and I have never seen scientists write about this.  Even the crocodiles were 4 times larger than today. Sometimes one will see photos of the extremely large crocodiles .... but the other animals.... they are not mentioned in science journals.

Animals adapt to their environment (Darwins finches adapted their beaks and when the food source changed they adapted back again - which is also never mentioned by evolutionists).  Scientists call this 'makro evolution' which is a deceiving word for adaption to the environment. 

(Micro- evolution is the kind which brought the micro changes over millions of years - so they say - to bring about life and all the different new species.  This has zero chance of happening if one studies the math).  

The flood was an extremely  violent event which changed the entire surface of the earth and the atmosphere. The earth ripped open to bring forth the water under the earth; Teutonic plates moved and the initial surge of water into gullies and deep areas must have been more like constant tsunamis - surging into areas and rushing in on mountains and even cutting some off.  New ground areas pushed up as the  earth's plates pushed up against one another forming very deep areas in the ocean and forming new mountain ranges which were higher than ever before. Water surges caused water erosion on softer stone. Many volcanos also erupted under water etc.

When the earth was filled with water  - then the  sedimentation would  have started. Heavier animals would sink to the bottom -   (All those which initially had not already been swept into gullies before  - they found many massive graveyards of animals in USA and many other places on earth which are miles* miles long and wide) - but again - not much explanation in the news.

Water is heavy (try to carry just one bucket of water) so it compacted the animals with sediment. The weight pressure of the water formed  oil, coal and diamonds etc. - pressing out the oxygen.  I have been looking into the "creationists theories for the flood and it is fascinating to see how the different "rogue" scientists who believe in the  bible look at this.... and one can learn something from each one.....there is no doubt in my mind that the flood took place. 

The sedimentation record can be seen at the great canyon and other places on earth - with the lighter materials settling everywhere as the water moved - hence the shell particles on high mountains. and even on the lower layers.  

So after the flood - the earth was totally different.  Food was not as large (plants must have been very large before the flood to feed large animals and even the dinosaurs) and not as abundant, no longer  with large pools of water for large mammals and /or dinosaurs to move in or float on. No mist coming up from the earth.  Large animals need water - look at elephants and hippos...... they need to cool down often.  

I have often thought that those mammal-dinosaurs which look similar to todays animals must have adapted after the flood to their new diet and new environment.  Their size definitely changed somewhat although remaining to be the same species. I remember seeing a hippo which looked almost similar to today and the rhino looked like the indian rhino.

Kinds of animals cannot change but adaption is everywhere.  Polar bears are losing their habitat today and more and more are now breeding with grizzlies, which will bring the extinction of the polar. The forest elephant in South Africa is now extinct (last one died a while back) It was smaller and ate different food.   Diet also has an effect on the human race and on animals. The black and white rhino eat different diets and their mouths have adapted.

 I am writing this now to show that one can read up on things to strengthen faith but one may not 'teach this as fact.   One can use it as an idea of how things took place back then - but since the bible gives us much more detail about the 'purpose' of god one can say that the above info is all mere speculation.  The GB is not in the business of speculation - so they stick to the purpose of Jehovah.

However, I will encourage others to read more and find out how the bible may be much more scientific than science itself.  Geologists officially refuse  to consider the  bible narrative and say that the very thin layers between the sedimental layers represent millions and millions of years - which is quite ludicrous when one sees the large layers of sediment before and after these thin layers.  

About the age of things -  ah - that is another subject......

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10 hours ago, Arauna said:

Jehovah's spirit helps with the rest and an honest and unbiased spirit helps to find the truth.

Ops, issue of spirit again. According to some explanations Spirit works by spirit power. Manifestations of spirit power can be material or spiritual, i guess. Today it seems how this spirit not created material things. Also this spirit, according to some explanations not making powerful works in healing people, to rise up the dead people, no miracle feeding with bread, also not making people to speak what spirit want them to speak, etc.  Also, according to GB, nowadays people can not be inspired by this spirit (but only can be guided and motivated).

Well, i can not understand statements How this spirit helps with the rest, when he is not functioning today as spirit usually working as it is described in Bible? 

Also,  What is the difference in wording and more important what/how looks differences in  manifestation when;

- spirit inspired you, (spirit not inspired you)

- spirit guided you, (spirit not guided you)

- spirit motivated you, (spirit not motivated you)

How JW can recognized, differentiate and explain when one of this spirit acting is in progress?  

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2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Ops, issue of spirit again. According to some explanations Spirit works by spirit power. Manifestations of spirit power can be material or spiritual, i guess. Today it seems how this spirit not created material things. Also this spirit, according to some explanations not making powerful works in healing people, to rise up the dead people, no miracle feeding with bread, also not making people to speak what spirit want them to speak, etc.  Also, according to GB, nowadays people can not be inspired by this spirit (but only can be guided and motivated).

Well, i can not understand statements How this spirit helps with the rest, when he is not functioning today as spirit usually working as it is described in Bible? 

Also,  What is the difference in wording and more important what/how looks differences in  manifestation when;

- spirit inspired you, (spirit not inspired you)

- spirit guided you, (spirit not guided you)

- spirit motivated you, (spirit not motivated you)

How JW can recognized, differentiate and explain when one of this spirit acting is in progress?  

Srecko I can understand your point.  The GB / JW Org play with words here.  

But I think that any REAL Anointed person would be inspired of Holy Spirit.  Doesn't God's Holy Spirit enter in to them in such a way that they know they are Anointed ?        Galatians 4 v 6&7. 

Now because you are sons, God has sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, and it cries out:“Abba, Father!”  So you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, then you are also an heir through God.

Being a son and heir is surely being of the Anointed, and thus they have God's spirit 'in their hearts'. Surely that is inspired of Holy Spirit. 

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4 hours ago, Arauna said:

About the age of things -  ah - that is another subject......

Of course, per the title of this thread, it is THE subject. I hoped we could get into it a bit more here.

You made some interesting points and it shows you have really looked into the topic. I don't know enough about the topic yet to know what the evolutionist's counter-arguments would be. It's something I just don't try to get into with others, at least in person. Having the topic here might encourage those like you to keep contributing some good information.

From what I can tell, since the 1980's, the Society has COMPLETELY dropped the 7,000 year day idea, and they have said nothing against the possibility that some of these "days" could be millions of years long. So there is even the possibility that some fossils could be 541 million years old.

I didn't pay much attention to the previous thread from which this one broke off, but I see that you are using C14 evidence to date ALL fossils on the order of thousands instead of millions of years. Without looking, of course, I'm sure there is a counter-argument among scientists, and I'd be interested in looking it up to see which argument has the best evidence behind it.

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3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Ops, issue of spirit again. According to some explanations Spirit works by spirit power. Manifestations of spirit power can be material or spiritual, i guess. Today it seems how this spirit not created material things. Also this spirit, according to some explanations not making powerful works in healing people, to rise up the dead people, no miracle feeding with bread, also not making people to speak what spirit want them to speak, etc.  Also, according to GB, nowadays people can not be inspired by this spirit (but only can be guided and motivated).

Well, i can not understand statements How this spirit helps with the rest, when he is not functioning today as spirit usually working as it is described in Bible? 

Also,  What is the difference in wording and more important what/how looks differences in  manifestation when;

- spirit inspired you, (spirit not inspired you)

- spirit guided you, (spirit not guided you)

- spirit motivated you, (spirit not motivated you)

How JW can recognized, differentiate and explain when one of this spirit acting is in progress?  

How can @Srecko Sostar and @JOHN BUTLER learn to stay on topic?

Let's see... the main Topic title is...... wait for it....... FOSSILS!!

Your Topic is..... SPIRIT.....

Let me see..... maybe I can add to this conversation....

I LOVE TACOS! 

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To me - the bible cannot be separate and science cannot be separate.  Where the  bible does not give guidance we can see if a science idea fits - if it does not fit in with the bible (such as a ploy to negate intelligent design) then it should be rejected.

Jehovah is after all the great scientist, father of logic and reality. 

I have no problem understanding that the earth and heavens were created and then lay fallow for a long time until it was ready to prepare for life.  It obviously took some time for the earth to cool down and produce the water on the surface as well as the thick cloud of gasses above the surface.  

I think logic regarding the science we have available together with bible can explain a lot of things.

 

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17 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

How can @Srecko Sostar and @JOHN BUTLER learn to stay on topic?

Let's see... the main Topic title is...... wait for it....... FOSSILS!!

Your Topic is..... SPIRIT.....

Let me see..... maybe I can add to this conversation....

I LOVE TACOS! 

Are but topic also contains time period. So I related that to the teaching of the JW org about each Creative day being 7,000 years long.

And please note in one of my comments I did apologise for being off topic :) 

It seems that things just 'evolve' :) ... On no, but yes, back to fossils. 

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

I LOVE TACOS! 

I made tacos last night. I ate 4. My wife ate 4 (usually eats 2), and my sons came over and ate about 8 between them. I make tacos once every two weeks. Soft corn tortillas are very inexpensive, but I also buy a small box of the crispy "Ortega" hard shells. I find that shopping for the ingredients is simple, because I just imagine a taco and the order in which I always put the items on it. Problem is that the store is set up in such a way that I have to buy the ingredients all out of order. I buy a head of lettuce, a small bag of limes, 2 tomatoes, 1 onion, 1 jalapeno pepper, 1 bunch of cilantro, hard tortillas, salsa, hamburger, cheddar cheese, sour cream, soft tortillas. (Other spices and hot sauce etc are already in the house.) In my youth, I used to fry the soft tortillas in corn oil, but now, I have evolved. I just put a cookie pan in the oven and put a layer of soft tortillas on the bottom and then stand up the hard tortillas on top of them, and another flat layer of soft tortillas on top of the hard ones. This way the crispy ones will bake but will be protected from getting too brown on the portion that is nearest the electric elements of the oven. I can start shopping at 5pm and be completely done chopping the ingredients, cooking the hamburger, and baking the tortillas to serve tacos by 5:55.

I find that the leftover lettuce, cilantro, and salsa doesn't stay fresh enough for two weeks so I use it for salads and spaghetti sauce within the next week. Also, if there are any tortillas, cheese, onions, tomatoes, jalapeno, etc., left over I just sprinkle it all onto flat tortillas and bake them into "chips" for dessert, which can last through the next day.

Sunday morning I make scrambled eggs. But mostly, I like tacos. I'm kind of set in my ways. Like an old fossil.

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16 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

How can @Srecko Sostar and @JOHN BUTLER learn to stay on topic?

Let's see... the main Topic title is...... wait for it....... FOSSILS!!

Your Topic is..... SPIRIT.....

Let me see..... maybe I can add to this conversation....

I LOVE TACOS! 

Thanks Librarian for little "rebuke". :) But Fossils (in fact living Creatures at first, before death), in Creation view on matter, will not be possible to find in the ground (or else) and in this topic today too, if the Spirit did not create them. No matter how much we want some words will be part of text no matter of main context.

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