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Arauna

Fossils are not millions of years old

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9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

That the entire earth was a temperate, tropical climate is also unprovable.

Actually there are fossils in the remotest parts of the earth that are now totally uninhabitable areas.  Some of the animals still have the green leaves in their bellies and there is evidence in many frozen deserts that this was a beautiful paradise some time in the past. To sustain such large animals the earth must have produced large plants and enough water for them to cool down in. 

The vast oil and coal fields are also proof of the abundance of  animals and vegetative matter and trees which covered the earth at one stage

 

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

In fact, the water canopy theory is very weak. From the standpoint of physics, the claims made for it are not even possible.

 I wish my brother and his friend in South Africa (both brothers) would write more on science.  If I remember correctly his friend wrote his doctorate thesis on "water".  I have heard them speak about the "heavy water" which is in the sea which has no current scientific explanation. Apparently it would not be a difficult thing for Jehovah to restore the water band.

My brother did write a paper for his friends (he is a nerd in math and physics - he is the one that was a brilliant toxicologist before he went to prison) which proves that the detrimental radiation after the flood built up in the atmosphere very quickly and was the cause for the sudden drop in the age of people after the flood.  He wrote a mathematic formula which proves the time period (he says that the bible is accurate when it comes to the time period) it took for mankind to degenerate. 

Yes - I agree there are no official papers to prove this but I think it is not improbable.

The Organization have asked my brother a few times for interviews and to write his life story but he refuses.   He developed the world wide official website on bloodless surgery.....for the bloodless society  (for free) quite a few years back.  He is a programmer as well and can fix any electronic device. 

His friend also wrote a "theory of everything" and my brother gave a copy to me.  I have the paper somewhere and should study it in more detail.  If I remember correctly,  it brings all the electrical powers, gravitation, as well as magnetism together in one theory.   The reasons that scientists today cannot fathom out the universe (all their theories are so diverse one cannot make sense of it) is because they refuse to acknowledge that Jehovah is the source of the dynamic energy.

There are now physicists who have come up with a theory they call the " electrical universe" and they are also creationists. They say that there is no dark matter and their theory explains many of the phenomena / evidences which the current secular theories do not explain.

We have an ozone layer at present and this does not mean that we cannot see into the vast universe.  Similarly the water band protected us from the extreme radiation.  It is a well-known fact that all our cancers and other immunity disorders come from a lack of Vitamin D.   To get this vitamin D one has to spend at least 15 minutes in the sun every day.   Even in Scandinavian countries they get skin cancer as a result of a lack of Vitamin D.

What does this tell us?   Man was made to work outside in the sun..... but not a harsh sun as we have now.  There definitely were filters in the sky which filtered out the bad rays.

The scriptures in the bible also state that there"  had never been rain before " but a mist watered the earth.  This indicates a much different earth before the flood than after.  As I said before  - the flood was a very violent event on the earth..... 

So my writing here is not a scientific statement - but it is speculation based on what we have in the bible and some of the evidence that is available on the earth. 

 

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5 hours ago, Arauna said:
15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

That the entire earth was a temperate, tropical climate is also unprovable.

Actually there are fossils in the remotest parts of the earth that are now totally uninhabitable areas.

To be clearer, I should have said that the idea that the earth was a temperate, tropical climate just before the time of the Flood is also unprovable. It very well may have been temperate and tropical for many thousands of years, or even for many millions of years. However, without accepting the methods of dating the various eras and eons on earth, we can't tell if this state of climate was true in all parts of the earth at the same time. We can only theorize. And it might be a very good theory.

When Genesis describes Adam and Eve leaving the Garden of Eden, it describes an immediate time of hardship in planting and cultivation, trying to eke out produce amidst thorns and thistles. This is not the state of affairs usually associated with a temperate and tropical climate and it was likely meant for a time more than 1500 years before the time of Noah.

  • (Genesis 3:17-19) 17 And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 It will grow thorns and thistles for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
5 hours ago, Arauna said:

My brother did write a paper for his friends (he is a nerd in math and physics - he is the one that was a brilliant toxicologist before he went to prison) which proves that the detrimental radiation after the flood built up in the atmosphere very quickly and was the cause for the sudden drop in the age of people after the flood.

It's a very common claim that has been theorized by fundamentalist authors for many years. And it might be true, but is still only a theory. I would love to be able to communicate with your brother, but no paper can "prove" anything about radiation levels before and after the Flood. Nor can anyone determine a specific reason for the sudden 90% drop in human lifespans.

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

He wrote a mathematic formula which proves the time period (he says that the bible is accurate when it comes to the time period) it took for mankind to degenerate.

That's interesting, but it's still not possible to use the word "prove" even when matching a formula to the Biblical time period.

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

If I remember correctly,  it brings all the electrical powers, gravitation, as well as magnetism together in one theory.

It's a kind of holy grail for scientists. When working from one set of "true" non-quantum assumptions you can get one good answer, and when you work from a set of "true" quantum assumptions you get another good, sensible answer. The problem is that those answers are several orders of magnitude apart from each other. Other methods of mixing the math from the small scale energies of the electro-magnetic world and trying to map them to the large scale energies from the the gravitational space-time world will devolve into string theories. Not just one string theory, but several different string theories, some of which result in a "necessary" postulation of several simultaneous universes. So there really is no string theory, or at least it has gotten nowhere.

My son graduated from Harvard with a degree in theoretical physics (also music) and we have discussions about this quite often, and of course it's over my head. But he claims that many scientists have tried it, even attempting to use the ideas to "prove for God" as the source of the dynamic energies that would explain dark matter, and poorly understood energies -- even gravity itself.

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

The scriptures in the bible also state that there"  had never been rain before " but a mist watered the earth.  This indicates a much different earth before the flood than after.

You'll notice that the WTS does not teach us that this condition lasted until the Flood, implying that it is likely it was a condition limited to the context (day 3) in the creation account summary of Genesis 2.

*** it-2 p. 728 Rain ***

  • At an early point in the history of the preparation of the earth, “God had not made it rain upon the earth,” but “a mist would go up from the earth and it watered the entire surface of the ground.” The time referred to is evidently early on the third creative “day,” before vegetation appeared

I'm sure you are aware, as you have already mentioned several of these points, but for those who don't know that these same theories have been common in Christendom for many years, one need only look at various commentaries of Genesis. Here's some excerpts from one example, which will take up the rest of the post:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_685.cfm
. . .
Water Vapor Canopy
. . .
Astronomer Donald B. DeYoung lists the arguments in favor of a water vapor canopy.
. . .

2.Genesis 2:5,6 hints that the early earth did not experience rain. A canopy would have greatly affected weather patterns, very likely limiting precipitation.
. . .
5.There is abundant evidence of a warmer earth in the past. We have found fossils of palm trees in Alaska, crocodiles in New Jersey, and petrified wood in the desert. A canopy would have warmed the entire earth like a blanket. Seasonal cold and heat are first mentioned after the Flood in Genesis 8:22.
. . .
6.A canopy would have increased atmospheric pressure, perhaps doubling its present value. This may explain the mystery of the flying reptiles, such as the pteranodon with its seventy-foot wingspan. In today's world it is doubtful that such creatures could fly. With higher air pressure in pre-Flood time, however, they may have been buoyed up by the increased air pressure. These magnificent creatures were certainly created and designed to fly above the early earth.

7.The canopy may hold the key to understanding the longevity in Old Testament chronologies, and also giantism of plants and animals in the fossil record. Increased air pressure can be very beneficial to health, as evidence by experiments with hyperbaric or high altitude pressure surgery. The healing process is sometimes found to accelerate when the patient is placed under higher than normal air pressure. The vapor canopy may also have increased the human lifespan by absorbing harmful radiation. The aging process is still not well understood today, so it is difficult to speculate on the beneficial effects of a pre-Flood canopy.

. . . . (Donald B. DeYoung, Weather And The Bible, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House, 1992, pp. 110-112).
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12 hours ago, Arauna said:

BUT  I use their own evidence against them.

Sorry, but if we think how one part of science field is unreliable in one part of thesis and if you found one part of scientists as unreliable in some specific area of discussion, but  other part is reliable, then we can come only to conclusion how probably we will not know nothing for sure. Always some doubts will be in air. Perhaps that is normal condition for humankind.

But this looks as something normal, because the same condition i can see in WT World. Many using WT own evidence against them.  

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I should add that some scientists who study these things agree that the time when dinosaurs and other contemporary animals and plants were on earth was a time when the atmosphere was very thick and heavy, atmospheric pressure at the earth's surface was much higher than now, and water vapor must have filled the air so that the sun's energy was fairly equally diffused, and those "thermals" that large birds seem to "float" on would have been a constant phenomenon. 

Some interesting thoughts on the pterosaurs and their ability to fly are found here:

http://theconversation.com/pterosaurs-should-have-been-too-big-to-fly-so-how-did-they-manage-it-60892

But pressure alone would not explain it, because continuous flight without flapping is really a matter of the difference in pressure above and below the wing, creating lower pressure above the wing; it's therefore not a factor enhanced by higher pressure above the wing.

And the entire book of several chapters, found here, provides some very interesting reading as an attempt to bring in a lot of available evidence on the topic.

https://dinosaurtheory.com/big_dinosaur.html

The book is well done from a didactic point of view, and the link above is only to chapter 2: The Paradox of Large Dinosaurs and Flying Pterosaurs. Chapter 3 is called, The Science of Flight and the Paradox of Flying Pterosaurs. The book should be read at least through Chapter 7, but the book gets uncomfortably "evolutionary" after that until the end at chapter 11. The last chapter (11) is about the age of fossils, however, tying back to the subject.

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4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

can "prove" anything about radiation levels before and after the Flood

If you really know your chemistry and how things work you can calculate the rate of radiation buildup... especially if you know what you are looking for...   Most scientists do not believe the bible so they do not even try. 

My brother has a special talent for discovering what a new molecule looks like - hence his profession of researching new poisons (on the plants in Africa which often kill animals).  This of course sent him to jail because he refused to help the government kill dissidents by providing them with unknown/new  poisons which he isolated and described the structures of.  

I must add my brother has  no ego - he is talented but does not look for any kind of recognition at all - so he is not in search of some holy grail - he just loves knowledge  and the bible.  

I

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life.

We still have this curse on the ground and this produces weeds and unwanted elements which makes it hard to produce food.  But - weeds and overgrowth and warmth do not affect animals - only the livelihood of humans

So with a water band the animals will have been OK, big and fat and the pollution was not yet what it is today.  What is significant in all of this is that they had never seen a rainbow before - so after the flood there was definitely a difference in the composition of the atmosphere to view a rainbow for the first time. 

Also - the grapes will have produced more sugar than before the flood with the stronger,  unfiltered sun.  Hence the event that Noah may have underestimated the amount of alcohol in his wine (not the same as before). Wine people know that stronger sunlight gives more sugar in grapes .... and hence more alcohol when fermented.

So there are quite a few indications in the bible that things changed after the flood.  For me the sedimentary layers which came during the flood are full of animals that could have lived until the flood....  but for this information I guess we have to wait until after  Armageddon to find out. 

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7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

one part of science field is unreliable

Yes - the age of the creation is a different matter to the sudden appearance of all animals which are fully  formed.  It is two separate subjects.  Evolutionists usually ignore the Cambrian explosion and do not talk about it.

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30 minutes ago, Arauna said:

sudden appearance

sudden or suddenly ..... or very slowly...... obviously much, much more than 7000 years. Why not about millions years? What is 100 000 000 year for God?

What is 700 000 000 for Him? ..... or xy years ......?

...Nothing!.....  But  for you, Arauna, is a big  PROBLEM :))) 

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12 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What is 700 000 000 for Him

That is obvious..... But we do not accept that the earth took so long to be prepared by evolution.  We accept that God created  all the animals - and we are talking how the Cambrian explosion proves that most animals appeared in the same epoch - fully formed.

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