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Predestination ? Life planned before birth ? Chosen before birth ?

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Kosonen -
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I don't believe in life being predestined, preplanned, but some scriptures seem to show otherwise. Or is interpretation wrong ?

Pauls says at Ephesians 1   Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ,

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 as he chose us to be in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and unblemished before him in love.  For he foreordained us to be adopted as his own sons through Jesus Christ, according to his good pleasure and will, ... 

 Foreordained = (of God or fate) appoint or decree (something) beforehand. 

Now is this correct translation of the scripture or not ? Did God know Adam would sin ? Did God have plans for a 'heavenly class ' 144,000 anyway ?

My brain can only take in so much at once and although i would have read this a hundred times or more I've only just began to think on this particular scripture. But it made me think on another scripture. 

Romans 9 v 10 through 13. 

Not only then but also when Re·bekʹah conceived twins from the one man, Isaac our forefather; 11  for when they had not yet been born and had not practiced anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose respecting the choosing might continue dependent, not on works, but on the One who calls,12  it was said to her: “The older will be the slave of the younger.” 13  Just as it is written: “I loved Jacob, but Eʹsau I hated.”

( As a note here I could not find this scripture by searching in JW Org but found it immediately by putting it as a question into google. Google showed BibleHub and there it is. )

God chose Jacob before Jacob was even born. Why ? How ? Predestination ? Jacob's life pre-planned by God ? 

There are probably more examples but i think these two serve the purpose. Does God have plans for all of us or only a chosen few ? 

 

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For many people who was born in poor countries, it could be said how their life is "predestined", or they are predetermined to stay poor and illiterate because parents can't afford to pay a school for their children. And for major of such population that is present and future. 

In some other cases we can talk about ones childhood. A circumstances in that period of life can be also very significant about life of such in older ages. With genetic you mentioned, too.

Are we all some experiment of gods? :)) It could be. JW and some other when talking about book of Genesis and Bible at all, say how God put The Tree in Garden to see will human obey Him or not, will they obey because of love too. So, this sort of explanation smell much to me, on some sort of experiment. Such idea is continued, same stuff is repeated with Abraham or Job, Jesus too. All of them, and many more was put in position "to prove" something about God.

Examples with Adam and Job, JW using as explanation for Crucial Questions of Life and Death. They say how God's Sovereignty and Honor depends on how would, will people answer to that challenge. Of, course, it is interesting how Adam, Job and Jesus answered about it,and make A Point, but still this seems it is not enough for God to make conclusion on this stuff and stop all injustice, misery and suffer for millions (people) or innocent children for centuries until today.     

Things are not, usually, black/white, but, perhaps JW explanation is not good enough, it is not valid, or interpretations on Bible text is terribly wrong, or bible description of past is poor, or all is in vain, or .... or i am predestined to talking stupidity    :))))))    

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I think the point is to know that Humans are not the important issue here.  

Was God in fact being tested by rebellious Angels ?  God could easily have 'removed' Adam and Eve. BUT that would not have satisfied the Angels questions. 

God not only had to do what was right, but in the eyes of the Angels, God had to be seen to be doing what was right. 

God was being challenged by an at least one Angel. So God had to answer that challenge. 

Personally I would have wiped out the wicked Angels and Adam And Eve, then started over, but that is just me :). If I were God my thinking would be that i didn't have to prove anything to anyone. 

However. thousands of years of suffering by humans has existed, because God has to prove His point to the Devil and the demons (wicked angels). Why ? So that the challenge by an Angel will not happen again.

We are told, and it is of course true, that God's thoughts are much higher than our thoughts. However God created us with the intelligence to question everything. 

So, it seems God gives us the opportunity to help Him to answer the challenge from the Devil. 

However it also seems that God, in some cases, preplans a person's life, to serve God's purpose. ( As in original post ).

Mary was chosen to give birth to Jesus. And who was it was chosen ? to give birth to John the Baptiser.  

In a similar way, I suppose the Anointed are chosen, either by God or by Jesus christ. 

And again,  I presume, God or Jesus Christ, choses to whom Holy Spirit will be given to understand scripture. 

In my opinion the two above lines of writing concern the same people. The Anointed are chosen and Holy Spirit is given to them to understand scripture. 

Then through the Anointed, (the spiritual Jew that the ten men cling on to ), people can prove their faith in God, and in so doing prove the Devil is wrong. 

One question is, were the Anointed pre-chosen from before they were born, just as Jacob was chosen ?

The Apostle Paul seems to say that they were.  

Question number Two is rather more important to us though. How do we truly know who the Anointed really are ? 

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@JOHN BUTLER The anointed should try to be faithful and discreet slaves and give spiritual food that is right for the time.

So try to look for that. Such anointed will help you through the end times. 

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      (
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      -  TWO -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
       
      You then speak of a job that took you away from "WT" indoctrination for a time, and upon your return, you perceived a discrepancy between past and present teachings. You cite the futility of learning tenets and teaching them, only to later be told that they are outdated and obsolete.
      What you are observing, is just what the Bible foretold about the teachings of this particular religious empire which holds captive, the anointed. I think you will recognize the connection with prophecy, if you understand the interpretation of the symbolic "three" "froglike expressions" of 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . A frog goes through many changes as it develops from an egg to an adult. If we were to constantly observe it's development, we would not clearly notice it's transformation. 
      If we were to remove ourselves from observing its development, only to return at a much later time, we may not even believe that it was the same creature. Gradual transformation from accepted truths, to accepted lies, is a tactic of Satan.
      -  THREE -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  - 
       
      I am extremely sorry for the loss of your daughter. I can only imagine the heartache. Yet please know that you are not alone in experiencing loss of children. I understand that it is not the same as physical death... but it is now common for many to lose their children in other ways, due to the organization. I have lost two daughters. One is still captive and zealous in the organization, and I have not had contact with her, in years. The other was so damaged by the "elders", that she went off the deep end, into sin, drugs, and mental illness. She blames all of her problems, on my raising her in the Organization. She despises me for it. Our pain might cause us to lash out at God (
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ) ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ). But if we stop to consider that loss of children, cooling of love, family conflict, and many other distresses, were all a part of Christ's confiding to his disciples, what we must expect of these times in which we are.      He gave such warnings, in the hope that we would not be overcome, but rather, would recognize the reality of our spiritual circumstances and our place in the time-line of prophecy. The "Great Tribulation", is just that. It is the greatest spiritual oppression, to ever arise upon Christians. If it's Satanic deceptive powers were not limited by God, even the Chosen could not be saved from it (
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ; Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ).  
      Although it may seem like stale bread... the observing of such fulfillment **among the authentic Chosen, IS an indication of the approaching End 
      (
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ).  
      -  FOUR -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
       

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  reads; "Surely oppression destroys a wise man’s reason,
      And a bribe debases the heart."
      I deeply regret how all your oppression has impacted your wife.
      Even the wise can lose their sanity when tribulation becomes severe. I myself, was driven to an attempt of suicide. But I hope that you will not give up in your trying to understand the bigger picture of our present reality; Because with that understanding, comes a way out. Once your hold on truth is firm, you may be able to comfort and assist your wife to that same freedom. I am not saying that full healing from the loss of a child can come in this life. But I assure you that hope and peace are within reach, 
      for those who do not give up (
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ).  
      Regarding your comment about Christ's "return" and "invisible presence", please consider these scriptures... 
      (
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        Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. )
        -  FIVE -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  - 
       
      Lastly,
      you state; "I guess I lack an assured expectation of things hoped for. ".
      Please clarify for us, in your mind, what hopes we had, as well as the hopes to which "JW's" still cling. Were they not false hopes? These too, Bible prophecy, identified and foretold 
      (
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ) ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ). What I am saying, is that it is not wrong for you to let go of the false hopes which we were previously given (
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. )... as long as we replace them with authentic reason for hope.
      Regarding a premature expectation of Christ 
        [and the reason why he seems to "delay" (
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. )], these *links* may help.
      I hope I have covered all the points you raised, and have given you an ample start to learning and perceiving what God's Word has to say on those issues and subjects.
      As always, I am here for questions.
      I know my responses tend to be copious, but I must offer as much of what I have been given, as is possible, in my desire to be found faithful and diligent in feeding Christ's sheep... especially those who are in distress.
       
      In my own experience of regaining my spiritual sight, I remember the steps I had to go through, as I peeled away "WT" deception by means of spirit and truth, by the grace of God. 
      I know that each puzzle piece is hard to fit into one's previous faith (
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ), unless the related concepts are also addressed. This is why I try to anticipate the same objections and questions which I myself went through during my process of being "set free".  (
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ) ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ). Rather than leave such a problem to arise, I hope to smooth the path, by anticipating how a "WT" doctrine might cause one to stumble at a particular point. This is why I provide *links* to common objections or questions to the subject at hand. Yet each person is an individual, so if there is something not covered, just let me know. Thank you for your good questions. If you conclude that what is written here, is true; please heed it's guidance, and share it. If so, I hope you will also associate with our group, to afford yourself some comfort and support. Though we are few, we treasure our precious harmony of faith.
      (*links* can be found in this article on Pearl Doxsey’s blog)
       
      May God's spirit be with you, as you examine the wisdom of His guidance, found in His Word.
      Love in Christ,
      Pearl
      (Pearl Doxsey 4womaninthewilderness)
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      Is being positive about the future with no basis a form of believing in fate/destiny? (Given the track record of horrors by and to humanity?)
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