FOUR problems with latest "GENERATION" teaching

[JOHN BUTLER]

So why couldn't the GB / Watchtower Soc' just sometimes say 'We do not know' 

Wouldn't that be a more humble way, and wouldn't that be waiting on God to give them an answer ? 

It seems that the GB have to be proving themselves all the time. And often prove themselves wrong. 

As for @Jaocb 's idea that one should not criticise if one does not have an alternative answer. That is a very crazy notion. 

But each to their own  

What I'm reading on here is moving me further away from the JW Org, and certainly making me put less trust than ever in the GB. 

And i do find that, some people find it difficult to distinguish, between serving God as opposed to serving an Organisation. 

To me the plot thickens each day, and not for the better.

@JW Insider You seem the most balanced person on here. Keep up the good work.  

[Srecko Sostar]

JW members, both, former and present, often come to the conclusion that some WT doctrines are very important, and some are less important for everyday spiritual health and/or survival of Armageddon. For some doctrines they think how they are not so important for "survival", for faith, for personal relationship to JHVH, for own or congregational life. And they are right in such thinking. But, WT view on worldwide Unity of God's people aka JWorg is a little different about this idea/s. To support idea how is good to be in step with particular teachings, even not "so important" from members view, GB using some phrases as; "be faithful in small things", "obey every instructions from GB even you don't understand why", "trust GB because JHVH trust them" and similar.
That is exactly what happens with a "overlapping generation". This interpretation is certainly a great nonsense, which is the product of mind of one or several people who have had to defend the position of previous WT Bible scholars/Doctrinal Inspectors, GB/FDS members, and to defend the possible meaning/s about Jesus' words on the "X Generation" and the anticipated "End of the World."

The teaching of this type, is one of characteristically teachings for such a kind of religion that is largely (if not entirely) based on Armageddon and the Reward with eternal life. The religion/movement (Bible Students) began with the prediction that the end is near. So, all efforts was been putted for "warning" other people about need to accept Jesus and JHVH. And this efforts is also attribute for JW today. 

The frequent announcements of the nearness of the end and the presentations of "evidences" to supporting it, does not stop until today. Evidences are always of the same kind, expectations are also the same, .... the time that passes without the fulfillment of expectations and beliefs means nothing, because time is eternal. If it did not happened today, then it will happen tomorrow. You just have to wait, and to remember how "many faithful people from past waited also for the fulfillment but not meet promises. So, you as JW can comfort yourself with same logic - It will be tomorrow.

  
This meaningless "overlapping" thesis, serve only to put the patch on the doctrinal hole, and correcting, fixing past misconceptions .... and to bring new hope for travelers traveling on a WT boat on which water enters, more and more. To convince yourself that you do not serve God for eternal life, or because of the fast arrival of Armageddon, or how this "irrelevant explanation" of what the generation is, means nothing to you, is good, ...if you really believe that this means nothing to you !! But, is it good to "believe" and to preach to other around you, that this "Concept" is what "Jesus has meant while speaking" about generation, and how God approved all this "truthful" explanations from past to this day !? 

[Srecko Sostar]

37 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So why couldn't the GB / Watchtower Soc' just sometimes say 'We do not know' 

Because they are Governing Body of all JW people. If they dare to say something like this, to whom JW people will go for water of truth???? :))))))  Well, they will never say, we do not know, but they will say, "some of us was thought", "in the past we believed" and similar general phrases.   

[JOHN BUTLER]

I agree with you @Srecko Sostar. I could not go into the ministry now even if i were still a JW. 

How could a person's conscience allow them to teach something that they know is wrong, or that they do not believe themselves.. 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

38 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Because they are Governing Body of all JW people. If they dare to say something like this, to whom JW people will go for water of truth???? :))))))  Well, they will never say, we do not know, but they will say, "some of us was thought", "in the past we believed" and similar general phrases.   

Sometimes they say "we do not know." I believe they have said it with regard to the interior rooms, for example. Tell @JOHN BUTLER Someone find the quote, please.

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for @Jaocb 's idea that one should not criticise if one does not have an alternative answer. That is a very crazy notion. 

It's a brilliant notion. It is pretty much what everyone's mother used to say: "If you can't say anything nice, [constructive] don't say anything." We are too much of the '60 Minutes investigative reports' generation, ever imagining we have blown the cover off some scheme or other. 

[Jaocb]

Dude you are a red herring! I agree with some of your most basic ideas, but listing all this stuff serves no basic purpose but to create noise. We were told to search for the sign in our day. That is what they were supposed to do. Poor and bad interpretations in the past have little to say about the credibility of the current interpretations!

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I have no problem understanding that these are the last days. Paul warned Timothy that Timothy that (because he was in the last days) he would have to deal with critical times, people who only loved themselves, people who were disloyal, people with no natural affection, etc., and this helped Timothy realize the times he was living in, and what to expect. I have no problem with the idea that many things have gone from bad to worse since that first century, and that this system doesn't seem like it can go on any longer. And all these evidences of the last days make us hope and pray for a new system that ever so much closer.

By the way, when you mention the question "how do we know he is near at the door?" you might realize that you are inadvertently exposing one of the inconsistencies of our interpretation of Matthew 24. In our interpretation, Jesus is already present, and THEN the signs supposedly arrive over the next 104-plus years. 

The topic of the "sign" is another one for another discussion. Many persons, including Russell himself, read Matthew 24 to prove that Jesus was warning the disciples that they should NOT look for any advance signs on earth because none would be given. Jesus said that wars and earthquakes, and famine, and pestilence and persecution etc., would continue to go on just as it always had (for the last 18 centuries, per Russell), but that these are NOT signs of the end, and not to be quickly shaken by such things. Russell seemed to ignore, however, that the warning also included not to start listening to people who look at these as signs and will therefore say that Jesus is here or there, but just not visible to them right now. Because when the parousia occurs, it will actually be without any extra warning; it will come as a thief in the night, and it won't be invisible, but suddenly and brightly, as visible as lightning that shines from side of the heavens all the way to the other side. In other words, Matthew 24 is the opposite of a "composite sign." 

The actual sign, would appear in the heavens when it was too late to escape. Here is where Russell and Second Adventists, especially, went wrong. They thought that they could already see those signs in the heavens. They saw them in 1780 and 1833, which perfectly fit the belief that the last days had begun in 1799. The rest of this post will be excerpts from Studies in the Scriptures, Vol 4, to show how easy it is to lock in on "signs" and how strongly entrenched these beliefs were, so that the WTS was promoting these specific teachings even until the 1930's. I have skipped about a dozen secular references that Russell quotes to show just how widely recognized these "signs" were from other authorities, much like our more current references to how secular authorities recognize how the world changed in 1914:

And they were given into her power, and she wore out the saints of the Most High for a time, times and a half time--1260 years--until A.D. 1799. And this long persecution, in which "many were purified and made white and tried," and in which the Mother of Harlots was "drunk with the blood of the saints and the martyrs of Jesus" (Rev. 17:6) ended as we have already shown, practically in 1776 and actually in 1799 when the Pope and his authority were humiliated before the World.*

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Understanding clearly, then, that it is signs that will follow the tribulation "of those days" that our Lord refers to, we inquire respecting the very definitely described signs--the darkening of the sun and moon, and the falling of the stars. . . .

On May 19, 1780 (still "in those days," the 1260 years of Papal power, but after that power had begun to wane and the brunt of the tribulation had passed) a phenomenal darkening of the sun occurred, for which scientists of that time and since have never been able to account. That this was no ordinary occurrence is sufficiently established by the following competent testimony--

The noted astronomer Herschel, says:

"The dark day in Northern America was one of those wonderful phenomena of nature which will always be read of with interest, but which philosophy is at a loss to explain."

Webster's Dictionary, 1869 edition, under the head of Vocabulary of Noted Names, says:

"The dark day, May 19, 1780--so called on account of a remarkable darkness on that day extending over all New England. In some places, persons could not see to read common print in the open air for several hours together. Birds sang their evening songs, disappeared, and became silent; fowls went to roost; cattle sought the barn-yard; and candles were lighted in the houses. The obscuration began about ten o'clock in the morning, and continued till the middle of the next night, but with differences of degree of duration in different places." . . .

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The Falling Stars

Half a century passed before the next sign appeared, the falling of the stars from heaven, as when a fig tree casteth her unripe fruit when shaken of a mighty wind. Our Lord's words found a fulfilment (though not their complete and only fulfilment, as we shall see later) in the wonderful meteoric showers of the early morning of Nov. 13, 1833. Those inclined to quibble by urging that "the fixed stars did not fall" are reminded that our Lord said nothing about fixed stars falling, and that fixed stars could not fall: their falling would prove that they were not fixed. The Scriptures do not distinguish between stars and meteors as is commonly done in our day.

Shooting stars, and even meteoric showers are not uncommon every year, and some years more than others. It is computed that 400,000 small meteors fall to our earth annually. But these are nothing in comparison to the great shower of Nov. 13, 1833, in which millions on millions fell.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

On 1/18/2019 at 3:01 PM, Shiwiii said:

But the requirement of jws is to adhere to ALL teachings of wt unless you would like to lose your family or in the case of not having family, be expelled. This is the case even if you know in your heart that you are correct, to keep up with the gb chariot, one must believe what they say verses what the Bible tells them.  Again, the Bible warns against such things, juts as you pointed out at Matt 23:1-3. 

All you have to do is abstain from fomenting a coup. This gets so old. 

You don't have to endorse every expressed view. (unless, as @JW Insider mentioned, you have taken a position of representative that says you do...but that is the same with any organization) 

Of course they would prefer that you get your head around every expressed view. Who wouldn't? But all you really need do is refrain from grabbing the wheel of the bus.

When you start singing the Buffalo Springfield song, "Step out of line, the men come and take you away," it is evidence that you have drunk too much of the Kool-Aid yourself.

On 1/18/2019 at 6:42 PM, Shiwiii said:

And here lies the crux of the matter. ...then there might be a change that was not from the top down but rather from the bottom up. 

It is the crux of the matter. Jehovah's people have signed on for being "taught by Jehovah." That is almost certainly going to be "from the top down." Your preferred alternative, "from the bottom up" would be Jehovah being "taught by us."

This is not hard to understand. If the answer is "from the bottom up" then there is frankly no need for God at all.

[JW Insider]

2 minutes ago, Jaocb said:

We were told to search for the sign in our day.

My point was to show the possibility and then some practical reasons that we are told NOT to search for the sign in our day.

[JW Insider]

29 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Sometimes they say "we do not know." I believe they have said it with regard to the interior rooms, for example. Tell @JOHN BUTLER Someone find the quote, please.

*** w13 3/15 p. 23 par. 16 Jehovah—Our Place of Dwelling ***

• In what ways will Jehovah prove to be “a real dwelling” during that tumultuous time? We will have to wait and see. But of this we can be sure: Like the Israelites at the time of the Exodus, the “great crowd” will remain organized, ever alert to divine direction. (Rev. 7:9; read Exodus 13:18.) That direction will come theocratically, probably by means of the congregation arrangement. Indeed, the many thousands of congregations around the world appear to be linked to the protective “interior rooms” foretold at Isaiah 26:20. (Read.) Do you value the congregation meetings? Do you act promptly on the direction Jehovah provides through the congregation arrangement?—Heb. 13:17.

*** w09 5/15 p. 8 Where Should You Be When the End Comes? ***

• Soon the end will come for Satan’s wicked world. How Jehovah will protect his people in the fear-inspiring ‘day of his anger,’ we do not yet know. (Zeph. 2:3) Regardless of where we are and what our situation is at that time, however, we can be sure that our survival will depend on our faith in Jehovah and our obedience to him. Meanwhile, we should cultivate a proper attitude toward what Isaiah’s prophecy refers to as our “interior rooms.”    
• “Enter Into Your Interior Rooms”     “Go, my people, enter into your interior rooms, and shut your doors behind you,” states Isaiah 26:20. “Hide yourself for but a moment until the denunciation passes over.” This prophecy may have had its first fulfillment in 539 B.C.E. when the Medes and the Persians conquered Babylon. Upon entering Babylon, Cyrus the Persian apparently commanded everyone to stay indoors because his soldiers were ordered to execute any found out-of-doors.
• In our day, the “interior rooms” of this prophecy could be closely associated with the more than 100,000 congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world. Such congregations play an important role in our lives. They will continue to do so through “the great tribulation.” (Rev. 7:14) God’s people are commanded to go into their “interior rooms” and hide themselves “until the denunciation passes over.” It is vital that we develop and maintain a wholesome attitude toward the congregation and be firmly resolved to stay in close association with it.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

28 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Sometimes they say "we do not know." I believe they have said it with regard to the interior rooms, for example. Tell @JOHN BUTLER Someone find the quote, please.

Jesus wants us to stay watchful because of what we do not know and what we do know.

ws12 2/15 pp. 3-8 - The Watchtower (Simplified)—2012

WHO IS WE?? MEMBERS!

 

 As God’s people, we understand many things that we could not otherwise have known.

w03 8/1 pp. 14-19 - The Watchtower—2003

WHO IS WE? GB!!

 

There are some things that happen in the organization that we may not understand.

w57 5/1 pp. 279-285 - The Watchtower—1957

WHO IS WE? MEMBERS!

 

 

How big Jehovah God is as to his body we do not know.

w53 12/15 pp. 748-761 - The Watchtower—1953

WHO IS WE? WE ALL! :))))))))

[Jaocb]

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So why couldn't the GB / Watchtower Soc' just sometimes say 'We do not know' Wouldn't that be a more humble way, and wouldn't that be waiting on God to give them an answer ?@JW Insider

i can agree with that.

 

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As for @Jaocb 's idea that one should not criticise if one does not have an alternative answer. That is a very crazy notion. 

But each to their own

Jacob did not say that. Go back and reread what @Jacob said! I said nothing about what someone should or should NOT do. I made an observation. Most of the time they don't have better solutions. When you grapple with somethng you find out how hard it is and the complexity of it and that brings a measure of humility and respect. I can criticize a ton of stuff until i actually have the job of doing it.

Most apostates are just hyperventilating on every topic and issue imaginable because it is quite ok to be have open season on JWs. their fellows don't even critique them because they are on their side. Very view if any would give any credit at all to JWs for anything.

I said nothing of constructive critiques. Much of what @JW Insider says is not constructive. he  is just blowing wind. I like him. I think he is trying to be honest, but he is like a person who likes to talk.

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@JW Insider You seem the most balanced person on here. Keep up the good work.  

That is funny. Much of what he says is irrelevant or blind due to his own biases. I wonder why @JW Insider is still even a JW. Or is that just a ploy?

  @JW Insider