Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit

[JW Insider]

11 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Are you two still going on ?

It's my impression that we both enjoy the back and forth. I hope it's not just me.

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Are you two still going on?

Yes, I would say that we still are. He’s almost the only person left here that I understand, even if he does expound over my head half the time.

[FelixCA]

Butler,

Ah! Yes, the voice of reason. Don’t worry Butler. I won’t continue a meaningless debate. One, of many speculations made by Raymond Franz that are being accepted by spiritually weak people.

A good research point would be with Pastor Russell’s Photo-Drama. I don’t know if the Bible Students finished the restoration or the Watchtower for all that matter. But the last time I looked, the Bible students did “some” restoration in 1992-93.

The original nitrate films are in such a state that they cannot be projected normally and video-taped. Consequently, they had to be copied, one frame at a time, manually, onto 16mm movie film (Kodachrome). The resultant copy was used in the production of the video-tape of the Photo-

Drama. The following listing details the contents of the video tapes of the Photo-Drama of Creation which were assembled between November, 1992 and March 6, 1993. Several of the films have not passed through my hands yet (if they exist at all), therefore, this production is not the complete eight hour production. There are more music records, which go along with films; however, since the films which these records support are missing, the records are not included.

It’s a shame if the whole presentation can’t be restored. This just proves, maybe there is something more to the Photo-Drama than meets the eye.

The point would be, there were different factions within the Bible Student association. Just like each congregation functioned independently from the Tower.

Do some Bible Students of today support Adventism, Yes they do. Are there some Bible Students that still have creationist views? Yes, there are.

CREATION—-Mosaic Account.

Q197:1 QUESTION (1911)—1—Do you believe in the Mosaic account of creation?

ANSWER—We believe the divine revelation, and if we had no Bible we think it would be proper to look for one. We could not imagine that a great loving Creator would have a plan for his creatures, bring them into existence, and not provide some revelation respecting his will regarding them. So that even when I had thrown away my Bible, when I did not know its value, I got to looking for a Bible somewhere and I searched amongst all the heathen religions to see if I could find one any better than the one I had thrown away, and I found nothing nearly as rational, nearly as reasonable, as the Bible when I understood it. We believe its account of creation is the only authorized account

At a first glance. It seems Russell was a creationist. That he believed the account of Genesis was made up in 6 days and on the 7^th day God rested were accomplished in 7000 years.

The problem there, what was Russell actually saying. He was using the same starting point from, CREATION of ADAM to 1873AD to mark the end of the 6^th day. Using the 1000 year computation.

The same inference depicted by the Watchtower for 1975. So, was Pastor Russell “really” saying creation was made in 6000 years? Was he referring, each creative day was 7000 years, which would mean, Genesis creation took 42,000 years or was he emphasizing man’s existence.

The First Day or Epoch

"Let there be light! and there was light." Thus, briefly, is summed up the result of the 7,000 years, styled the First Day. Not that God's Word would not have been sufficient for any miracle, but because He prefers to work out His glorious designs along natural lines.-Genesis 1:3… We follow the theory that each of the Seven Days of the Creative Week was a period of seven thousand years. This, seven times seven thousand, equals forty-nine thousand (7x7,000=49,000) years, ushering in a grand Jubilee Epoch.

STUDY II

BIBLE CHRONOLOGY

Chronology Necessary to an Understanding of Prophecy—Indispensable Data Furnished in the Bible—From the Creation of Adam to A.D. 1873 was Six Thousand Years—A Statement of Bible Chronology in Great Periods—Its Examination in Detail—From Creation to the Day the Flood was Dried Up—To the Abrahamic Covenant—To the Giving of the Law—To the Division of Canaan among the Tribes—The Period of the Judges—The Period of the Kings—The Period of the Desolation—To A.D. 1873—Wherein this Chronology Differs from that of Bishop Usher, Noted in our English Bibles—The True Date of our Lord's Birth.

Therefore, can people honestly claim, Pastor Russell, overshadowed creation by suggesting creation took 6000 years as creationist do, or was he’s understanding an explanation that reflects after creation to man’s existence? People that argue the Bible Student era, fail in two points. First, not fully grasping what the intent was, and second, to make The Bible Student era in its infant understanding and claim it’s still accepted by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

JW’s understand the creative day can have an infinite number, not 49,000 years. It’s disingenuous and false to think, Russell was a creationist by referring to the Genesis account of creation as 6000 years.

Therefore, NO! today’s Watchtower has not erred in any of the claims made. These separate issues are still being combined as usual.

I left the word "week" up for scrutiny, just in case more wordplay is given.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JW Insider]

21 minutes ago, FelixCA said:

So, was Pastor Russell “really” saying creation was made in 6000 years? Was he referring, each creative day was 7000 years, which would mean, Genesis creation took 42,000 years or was he emphasizing man’s existence.

The New Creation, Studies in the Scriptures, is not so different than what was continued until the 1970's and proposed again in the 1980's:

We believe our readers will agree that although the length of these epoch-days is not indicated, we will be justified in assuming that they were uniform periods, because of their close identity as members of the one creative week. Hence, if we can gain reasonable proof of the length of one of these days, we will be fully justified in assuming that the others were of the same duration. We do, then, find satisfactory evidence that one of these creative "days" was a period of seven thousand years and, hence, that the entire creative week would be 7,000 x 7 equals 49,000 years. And although this period is infinitesimal when compared with some geological guesses, it is, we believe, quite reasonably ample for the work represented as being accomplished therein—the ordering and filling of the earth, which already "was" in existence, but "without form [order], and void [empty]." . . .  Evening and morning, Day Six, at its close, 42,000 years after "work" began, found the earth ready for man to subdue. . . .

Edited to add that the December 1912 Watch Tower also explained it similarly:

Six great Thousand-Year Periods or Days have passed since Adam was created, according to Bible chronology. We are now in the dawning of the great Seventh Day or Sabbath Day of human experience. God has promised that this Seventh Day of a thousand years will be very different from the preceding Six Days, in which mankind has experienced a reign of Sin and Death. The Seventh Day of a thousand years is Scripturally called the "Day of Christ," and by many it is styled the Millennium. In it Satan and Sin are to be overthrown, righteousness is to be established by the Redeemer, and mankind, purchased by the precious blood at Calvary; are all to have full opportunity for arising from present degradation to re-attainment of the image and likeness of God, lost in Eden by Adam's disobedience.

The Seventh Day of the Creative Week began with Adam's creation and has already lasted six thousand years, and is to be completed with the thousand years of Christ's Reign. The Seventh Creative Day will be seven thousand years long. Whoever sees this to be a reasonable deduction can easily suppose that the six preceding Days of the Genesis account were, likewise, seven thousand years each. Reckoned thus, the total period from the time that Divine Energy began to operate upon the waste Earth down to the time when the whole work of creation and Restitution will be fully completed, would be 7 times 7,000 years, or 49,000 years.

According to the Bible, that time will be a thousand years hence, when The Christ shall have accomplished His work for mankind to the full and shall deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father. At that moment the fiftieth thousand-year period will begin, with every creature in Heaven and on earth ascribing praise to Him that sitteth upon the Throne, and to the Lamb, forever. How appropriate this will be, especially when we recall that in God's arrangement fifty is the greatest climax of numbers! In Bible usage the number seven is symbolical of perfection, and 7 times 7 represents a completeness of perfection; and the fiftieth or Jubilee following is climacteric.

[Anna]

10 hours ago, FelixCA said:

The Watchtower has shown the closeness each generation gets to the conclusion of this old system. Unfavorable people like to think there are hidden messages. That, of course, is concocted in their own minds.

Sometimes you make me think you have been living under a rock. I don't know what you mean by unfavorable messages, but it is clear that every Witness generation has been living with the thought that "our children won't make it to high school", it doesn't matter whether this is the 20's 30's 40's..............80's 90's.... you get my drift. Perhaps this is a good thing as it keeps everyone on their toes, but it can also backfire, like crying wolf one too many times. 

Being ready at all times doesn't equal putting a date or time period on it.

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, Anna said:

but it is clear that every Witness generation has been living with the thought that "our children won't make it to high school", it doesn't matter whether this is the 20's 30's 40's..............80's 90's....

not only high school but also primary school. :))

only do not know was this sort of thinking characteristic for Whole people in specific JW generation or one part of people in that generation :)) 

Up-vote!

[TrueTomHarley]

6 hours ago, Anna said:

but it is clear that every Witness generation has been living with the thought that "our children won't make it to high school", it doesn't matter whether this is the 20's 30's 40's..............80's 90's.... you get my

I ‘m not sure I would fit it in, or that I could integrate it with everything else, but there is a part of me that wants to introduce a family of dimwits, proud of the fact that with them the ‘prophecy’ has held true for over a century.

[FelixCA]

Yes, well, to me it’s all meaningless. I can enter an apostate website like JWfacts, or AD1914 and copy that garbage of what these people think the Watchtower is conveying. I, however, do diligent research.  It’s been a battle between creationist and evolutionist how long it has taken the earth to form. The evidence proves what the Watchtower indicates between creation by God and the origins of the universe. Evolution, Natural selection, the big bang theory, Science.

So, excuse me if I don’t buy into your understanding. Why would the watchtower find it a need to publish the book's creation (ce) and “life-how did it get here? By evolution or by creation” in 1985 after the 1967 book, did man get here by evolution or by creation?

*** w85 6/1 p. 7 Adam and Eve—Myth or Reality? ***

 

Wisdom of the World or Wisdom of God?

The French Jesuit priest Teilhard de Chardin brought about one of the biggest changes in Catholic thought. He considered evolution to be a gradual climb to a spirit existence. According to his theory, life forms evolve, passing through the animal and human stages, being finally destined to become united at a focal omega point—Christ. Although initially condemned by the church, the theory gained the approval of many Catholic ecclesiastics. However, it was clearly contrary to Scriptural evidence and heaped reproach on God himself, denying the necessity of the ransom for humans to recover perfect human life.

 

 

Recoiling from these conclusions are the "scientific creationists." But their interpretation of the Genesis creation account has led them to claim that the earth is only 6,000 years old and that the six "day’s allowed in Genesis for creation were each only 24 hours long. But does such an idea accurately represent what the Bible is saying? Was the earth, and all its life forms, created in just six literal days? Or is there a reasonable alternative?

AS WITH other things that are misrepresented or misunderstood, the first chapter of the Bible deserves at least a fair hearing. The need is to investigate and determine whether it harmonizes with known facts, not to mold it to fit some theoretical framework. Also to be remembered, the Genesis account was not written to show the "how" of creation…The first part of Genesis indicates that the earth could have existed for billions of years before the first Genesis "day," though it does not say for how long. However, it does describe what earth's condition was just before that first "day" began:”

 

Perhaps you need to reacquaint yourself with the Watchtower publications in order to find other avenues to criticize the Org, by your personal perception on how you think the Org is wrong and only you are right.

So, far, you have TTH, comfortmypeople, JTR, Butler, Srecko, Anna holding on to every fiber of your words and false demonstrations.

Remember, TTH believes you’re an excellent writer. Such people do tend to make believers of those that are weak minded. So, the only ones living under a rock are those that want to believe in conspiracies.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

51 minutes ago, FelixCA said:

TTH believes you’re an excellent writer. Such people do tend to make believers of those that are weak minded. 

TTH is so weak minded that he has concocted a character who turns that entire troupe around and marches them back into the slime from which they came.

[JW Insider]

On 2/13/2019 at 12:29 PM, FelixCA said:

I can enter an apostate website like JWfacts, or AD1914 and copy that garbage of what these people think the Watchtower is conveying.

There should be no reason for you to do that, nor I. There are plenty of things wrong or misleading on both of those sites. In fact, I see that AD1914 has merely taken a lot of articles from JWFacts and Hatton, and AlanF, and just re-posted them verbatim.

On 2/13/2019 at 12:29 PM, FelixCA said:

I, however, do diligent research.

That's what you should do. And you appear to have access to a lot of research materials, so that's great.

On 2/13/2019 at 12:29 PM, FelixCA said:

So, excuse me if I don’t buy into your understanding.

No one is asking you or anyone else to buy into anything, but at least I see that we agree on the topic of the earth's creation. The Watchtower says that the creative days were of unknown length, and that these days didn't begin counting until perhaps many millions or even billions of years after which time the earth was "formless and waste." There is nothing wrong with this perspective we learn from the Watchtower. It is perfectly fine from a Biblical view, as a "day" can have a variety of meaning. I don't remember reading anything different in R.Franz perspective, so I'm guessing that he would have agreed with us, too.

On 2/13/2019 at 12:29 PM, FelixCA said:

Why would the watchtower find it a need to publish the book's creation (ce) and “life-how did it get here? By evolution or by creation” in 1985 after the 1967 book, did man get here by evolution or by creation?

I'm sure there are always new and better ways to explain things. Certain questions come in that show a need for focusing on something that was only mentioned briefly before. New books and new quotes are available that weren't available in 1967. I'm sure you already knew all this, so I'm not even sure why you are asking.

On 2/13/2019 at 12:29 PM, FelixCA said:

Perhaps you need to reacquaint yourself with the Watchtower publications in order to find other avenues to criticize the Org, by your personal perception on how you think the Org is wrong and only you are right.

Why? Why should I find other avenues to criticize the Org? I'm only going to question areas where prayer and study and meditation and Bible reading have led me to think that certain strongly entrenched doctrines ought to be questioned. The Watchtower has often said that it welcomes such questioning. The Bible makes it our Christian duty to make sure of all things. 

It's for the same reason that I welcome your own questions and criticisms of those areas that I have brought up. But I often wish that you would actually offer Scriptures, reasoning, or even counter-arguments. Instead, you seem to have an obsession with making false statements about things I've said. Perhaps you just have trouble understanding me. But if that's the case, don't just jump to conclusions about what I said, or what I think Russell said, or the Watchtower said, etc. Just ask! I'd be happy to discuss any of these things.

But instead you seem bent on making claims like the one above that says that I think the Org is wrong and only I am right. It's completely false, of course, and I'm sure you know that. But why waste your time on such things even if it were true. If a person says something you disagree with, it's better to discuss the thing, not whether the person always thinks he is right. 

On 2/13/2019 at 12:29 PM, FelixCA said:

So, far, you have TTH, comfortmypeople, JTR, Butler, Srecko, Anna holding on to every fiber of your words and false demonstrations.

Here again, why be so obsessed with persons who have agreed with something I've said, here and there? I think a lot of people have noticed this absurd obsession you appear to have with up-votes, down-votes, and such things. I'm not here for any of their up-votes or to get anyone to hang on every fiber of my words. There have been people here in the past, Alan [Allen] Smith for one, who was so obsessed with up-votes and down-votes that he created multiple accounts just to practice vote-spamming, where he targeted a few people with literally hundreds of down-votes and employed those same multiple accounts to create hundreds of up-votes for himself. It was a funny quirk of his, and the Librarian or admin pointed it out publicly. But I'm not concerned about it myself. I'd point out the exact same scriptural concerns even if I never got an upvote. And there are others who probably would point out some of the exact same concerns if I weren't even here.

The thing I would appreciate is having someone respond to the reasons my "false demonstrations" are false rather than going after me for bringing them up.

[JOHN BUTLER]

All of this in-fighting for nothing. And Jesus said at Matthew 11 v 25

" New Living Translation
At that time Jesus prayed this prayer: "O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike. "

Well the GB and it's writing department are obviously not 'childlike' enough.  And neither are any of us it seems. 

 

[FelixCA]

To the contrary, you are the one hell-bent on proving the Watchtower wrong, by your own misconceived notions. Pretty much similar to Raymond Franz. It almost looks like he was your teacher. Too bad.

You are correct, all those apostate sites post nothing more than garbage. The same kind of nonsense that makes its way here.

I don’t know this Alan Smith or Allen Smith, whatever you want to call that person. Once again, where is, that person's post? It seems like a person I can agree with. Not so much with people that want to justify their own means of understanding.

A good example was offered by an angry person. The claim is, it’s wrong to contend with dates. It can backfire.

Didn’t God through his prophets contend with dates? Didn’t John ask Jesus if he was the one spoken about centuries earlier? Matthew 11:3. Did Jesus, tell John, shut up, we are not supposed to speak about time prophecy. It will have a negative impact on the faithful.

What does it mean to be faithful? It seems that has been forgotten here. No one, but no one is forcing anyone to remain in the Org. Those that wish to leave are free to do that. Jesus made that pretty darn clear. He wanted to see “righteous” and “faithful” people inherit the earth.

He didn’t want creatures of habit like those that defied God when Moses went up the mountain that cost them dearly. That generation would have to die before God would grant the loyal ones access to the promise land.

People, usually hate hearing the truth. I’m no different. That’s what it means to become spiritually mature. To leave those past thoughts behind. This is not what is happening here now, is it?

Here, there is a festering of disdain. A culture of the Pharisees. The funny thing, you people don’t want to take responsibility for your actions. Galatians 6:5-15

You, people, think it’s just a given to spread gossip and false reports, and still, think somehow god still favors you, because you are part of the Org and that’s enough. Wrong! Ephesians 4:23-24

How else would God allow someone to rethink scripture as intended? By the first century values, when Christendom had but pretty much defiled its existence to promote their own agenda.

Did anyone in Jesus time, convince Jesus he shouldn’t do what he set out to do? Then why do some here think they can dictate to the Watchtower what they think the Watchtower should do. This is the kind of mentality that is disturbing to see.

So, excuse me if people here don’t understand the significance of prophecy. It’s still no excuse by the lack of understanding to suggest others don’t understand. Those that don’t understand, there is a reason for it. That’s not a good thing. 1 Corinthians 2:14, Matthew 13:13

The only thing I see is a refusal not to accept. Wordplay with the word “prophecy” and “time”. Prophecies exist in scripture. Time prophecy is the given time period within those prophecies. How else would we know when a certain event happened? No reason to separate the two.

Continue living normal lives, as millions of Witnesses have done, and continue to do. If there is something you people don’t understand, even though the Org is using the “simplest” of ways to have you understand, aside from having to treat people like children, that would be on the individual, not the Watchtower.

That certainly doesn’t mean, the GB is working in the dark. That belongs to those that fail to understand. Therefore, it’s only dangerous to those that don’t understand.

COMPARING PROPHETIC SOURCES: PRINCIPLES AND A TEST CASE Martti Nissinen 1. Ancient Near Eastern Prophecy as the Context of Biblical Prophecy 1.1. Prophetic Studies in Transition Increasing knowledge of ancient Near Eastern prophetic texts has during the last couple of decades led to a growing awareness of prophecy in the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judah as an integral rather than antagonistic factor in the Near Eastern socio-religious milieu.