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JOHN BUTLER

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43 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Quote" I think the WT that talked about the anointed wished to highlight that there is no difference between the anointed still on earth, and the earthly class, apart from their future destinations. So if there is no difference.. "

How many scriptures did the WT use in full to make the point you've mentioned ?  Can you repeat those scriptures ? 

I don't need to cite any scriptural quotes from the WT to make that  point.

The scriptures make no distinctions between true Christians, only their destination.  In fact the scriptures make no distinction between anyone with regard to the value of life, all peoples lives have equal value in God’s eyes. Otherwise the scriptures wouldn't be able to say that Christ died for all.

The distinction is approval or disapproval from God on how they live that life.  

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I recalled a comment from last year where you commented positively on the new way of referring to these days as aeons or epochs, rather than literal days, and then added the following comment:

It is understandable for me to see your disappoint about R.F. or similar characters inside JW. Yes, perhaps your view about him is correct. But for many of us is of less concern why he wrote a book ab

I've been thinking about this claim for a while. I don't consider Carl Olof Jonsson nor Raymond Franz to be apostate. Not apostates from Christianity, nor apostates from Jehovah's Witnesses, nor apost

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5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Doesn't make much sense really because if a person was given a position of responsibility OVER others, then they would be 'above' the others, not 'equal to' the others. 

"...there is no partiality with God"- Romans 2:11

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10 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Read Leviticus  chapter 21.

.. all people are not equal, even in god's eyes. And if it is so with god, how is it with other imperfect human than. 

I don't see how Leviticus 21 shows that peoples lives are not equal. It is merely describing that people with defects cannot serve as high priests. This in no way made their lives less valuable, it merely made them unfit for a certain job.

There are additional reasons, one of them being that this priesthood symbolized and forshadowed the perfect priest, Jesus Christ: "For it is fitting for us to have such a high priest who is loyal, innocent, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and exalted above the heavens. (Hebrews 7:26)

Of course today it would be seen as discrimination. Almost every establishment has to employ a certain percentage of physically or mentally disadvantaged persons. But that is an entirely different situation from what the function of the priesthood was. 

I remember seeing a physically disadvantaged person working in a department at Bethel. And I doubt if one of the members of the GB suddenly became physically disabled they would be barred from serving on the body. In fact I think that one of the members in the past was practically blind. 

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6 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

This means that TrueTom will have to change his writing skills as not to be seen the same as JWinsider. I wonder how many skeletons live in that closet

“I was hanging in the suana with Fred thumbing a soggy copy of Ray’s book that Dan had squirreled out of the safe, hoping Albert wouldn’t go off on some spiel on UFOs or whatever, and that he would postpone his latest jetting around the globe gig, where he always made me ride baggage class, when...” uh oh, I’m not that sufficiently gets the job done.

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11 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I believe somewhere I have seen a list of about 15-20 people he thinks are the same person.

I believe you probably have seen such a list.

But I never made such a list. I could try, but I'd probably only get about 14 of them right. Still, I imagine it would be difficult to track and manage all of these personas without a list of some kind. So I wouldn't doubt your claim. 

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On 1/29/2019 at 9:35 AM, BillyTheKid46 said:

Remember this is an individual that emphatically stated Fred Franz endorsed the assumption of the end of the world in 1975, by his own admission and audio/video proof.

Exact same thing that Allen Smith accused me of stating, too. It's still just as untrue. Fred Franz did not endorse the assumption of the end of the world in 1975. I've sometimes been the first to correct that false notion when naive opposers have made such a claim about Fred Franz on this very forum. For Fred Franz it was not about him endorsing 1975. Fred Franz considered it "an appropriate time for God to act" based on the unscriptural idea he held at the time that the creative days must have each been 7,000 years long, and that God's great rest day, should appropriately include the 1,000 year reign and still end end within a very short period of time after the year 2975. (The year 2975 was listed in the chart in the 1966 book, "Life Everlasting In the Freedom of the Sons of God.") The Watchtower that same year said:

*** w68 8/15 pp. 499-500 pars. 30-33 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man’s existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ. If these two periods run parallel with each other as to the calendar year, it will not be by mere chance or accident but will be according to Jehovah’s loving and timely purposes.

But it was always more about the closeness to 1975, since 1975 marked the 6,000th year of that 7,000 year period. You might be aware that I've been consistent about that point all along on this forum. 1975 got emphasized because of that available point of measurement, yet it was NEVER stated that the world would end in 1975, nor that Armageddon or the end of this system would occur in that year. The point was that it MIGHT, which was a very true statement; we had no reason to believe it couldn't. And we had every reason to be extra alert because we were given many reasons to believe that the end of the system must have been about to occur, not necessarily in 1975, but at least in the decade of the 1970's. From just before the 1970's started, right up until early in the year 1975, the year was emphasized because it was "Biblical" date in a sense, but no one ever said that the end could not come before 1975, or even a few years after 1975.

Combined with our view of world events at the time, this made sense and many statements were made that would convince a normal person that Armageddon could come in 1975 or within a matter of months, not years, beyond 1975.

*** w68 8/15 p. 499 par. 30 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years.

To a careful reader, this statement says that at the most we had about until October 1977 until we entered the last thousand years of that "rest period" which would (appropriately and lovingly and purposefully) run parallel with the thousand year reign of Christ. (Because after 1977 it would now no longer just be a measure of months, but years, in the plural, and we had just been told that it may be weeks or months, but NOT YEARS.) Then a small note in the same Watchtower reminded us that another factor might add or subtract 6 months to that limit. This could potentially have pushed that maximum limit out until April 1978. 

This explains why the talks, the Awake! and Watchtower magazine covers, Circuit Assembly lapel badge messages, and even Watchtower subscription campaigns (in the late 60s and early 70s) made several references to the "mid-70s," "the decade of the 1970's," "What will the 1970's bring?" "Who will conquer the world in the 1970's?" etc.

*** w71 9/15 p. 561 pars. 10-12 Set Apart from the World ***
With populations exploding all over the earth, many nations now stand at the brink of starvation, and disaster is predicted by experts for the mid-1970’s. Rather than fit in with political promises of a bright, materialistic tomorrow, this devastation on earth fits Jehovah’s prophecies on mankind’s waywardness in the “last days.” . . .  And now, as we enter the 1970’s, an astonishing picture presents itself.

*** w69 11/1 p. 668 How to Avoid Regrets ***
Just as we looked back over the past five years, let us look five years into the future. That will be the year 1974. What will we be regretting then? What are we doing right now, or failing to do now, that years from now we will wish we had done or had done differently? Jehovah has provided sufficient information so that we can definitely know the trend of future events. His Word reveals that we are without question fast approaching the end of this entire wicked system of things. (Matt. 24:3-14; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; 1 John 2:17) . . .
So when the end of this system of things soon comes, what will be our greatest need?

But it was not even a new point about the end of the 6,000 years ending in the 1970's:

*** w74 8/15 p. 507 No Spiritual “Energy Crisis” for Discreet Ones ***
In 1943 the Watch Tower Society’s book “The Truth Shall Make You Free” did away with the nonexistent extra 100 years in the period of the Judges and placed the end of 6,000 years of man’s existence in the 1970’s. It also fixed the beginning of Christ’s presence, not in 1874, but in 1914 C.E.

Back then (in 1943), the end of 6,000 years was not 1975, but 1976. And it was also not a new point to discuss the gap between Adam's creation and Eve's creation that could effect the expectation of the 1,000 year reign starting immediately that year. The only difference was that all the arguments were for a longer time gap between Adam and Even, and by 1968, all the arguments were for a shorter time gap between Adam and Eve.

*** w55 2/1 p. 95 Questions From Readers ***
. . . six thousand years of God’s rest day would be ending in the fall of 1976. However, from our present chronology (which is admitted imperfect) at best the fall of the year 1976 would be the end of 6,000 years of human history for mankind, 6,000 years of man’s existence on the earth, not 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh seven-thousand-year period. Why not? Because Adam lived some time after his creation in the latter part of Jehovah’s sixth creative period, before the seventh period, Jehovah’s sabbath, began.
Why, it must have taken Adam quite some time to name all the animals, as he was commissioned to do. Further, it appears from the New World Bible Translation that, even while Adam was naming the animals, other family kinds of living creatures were being created for Adam to designate by name. (Gen. 2:19 footnote d, NW) It was not until after Adam completed this assignment of work that his helpmate Eve was created. Since God created nothing new whatever on the seventh day, Eve must have been created on the sixth day; and this the divine record confirms in its account of the sixth day: “God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them.”—Gen. 1:27, NW.
The very fact that, as part of Jehovah’s secret, no one today is able to find out how much time Adam and later Eve lived during the closing days of the sixth creative period, so no one can now determine when six thousand years of Jehovah’s present rest day come to an end. Obviously, whatever amount of Adam’s 930 years was lived before the beginning of that seventh-day rest of Jehovah, that unknown amount would have to be added to the 1976 date.

This was the big difference in emphasis about 1975. Note, how every point of "delay" above is refuted just 13 years later:

*** w68 8/15 pp. 499-500 pars. 30-33 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
Our chronology, however, which is reasonably accurate (but admittedly not infallible), at the best only points to the autumn of 1975 as the end of 6,000 years of man’s existence on earth. It does not necessarily mean that 1975 marks the end of the first 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh creative “day.” Why not? Because after his creation Adam lived some time during the “sixth day,” which unknown amount of time would need to be subtracted from Adam’s 930 years, to determine when the sixth seven-thousand-year period or “day” ended, and how long Adam lived into the “seventh day.” And yet the end of that sixth creative “day” could end within the same Gregorian calendar year of Adam’s creation. It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years.
31 In regard to Adam’s creation it is good to read carefully what the Bible says. Moses in compiling the book of Genesis referred to written records or “histories” that predated the Flood. The first of these begins with Genesis 1:1 and ends at Genesis 2:4 with the words, “This is the history of the heavens and the earth . . . ” The second historical document begins with Genesis 2:5 and ends with verse two of chapter five. Hence we have two separate accounts of creation from slightly different points of view. In the second of these accounts, in Genesis 2:19, the original Hebrew verb translated “was forming” is in the progressive imperfect form. This does not mean that the animals and birds were created after Adam was created. Genesis 1:20-28 shows it does not mean that. So, in order to avoid contradiction between chapter one and chapter two, Genesis 2:19, 20 must be only a parenthetical remark thrown in to explain the need for creating a “helper” for man. So the progressive Hebrew verb form could also be rendered as “had been forming.”—See Rotherham’s translation (Ro), also Leeser’s (Le).
32 These two creation accounts in the book of Genesis, though differing slightly in the treatment of the material, are in perfect agreement with each other on all points, including the fact that Eve was created after Adam. So not until after this event did the sixth creative day come to an end. Exactly how soon after Adam’s creation is not disclosed. “After that [Adam and Eve’s creation] God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a sixth day.” (Gen. 1:31) After the sixth creative day ends, the seventh one begins.
33 This time between Adam’s creation and the beginning of the seventh day, the day of rest, let it be noted, need not have been a long time. It could have been a rather short one. The naming of the animals by Adam, and his discovery that there was no complement for himself, required no great length of time. The animals were in subjection to Adam; they were peaceful; they came under God’s leading; they were not needing to be chased down and caught. It took Noah only seven days to get the same kinds of animals, male and female, into the Ark. (Gen. 7:1-4) Eve’s creation was quickly accomplished, ‘while Adam was sleeping.’ (Gen. 2:21) So the lapse of time between Adam’s creation and the end of the sixth creative day, though unknown, was a comparatively short period of time. The pronouncement at the end of the sixth day, “God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good,” proves that the beginning of the great seventh day of the creative week did not wait until after Adam and Eve sinned and were expelled from the Garden of Eden.

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7 hours ago, Anna said:

I think the WT that talked about the anointed wished to highlight that there is no difference between the anointed still on earth, and the earthly class, apart from their future destinations. So if there is no difference, it logically figures that they are all domestics, whether it be the anointed scattered throughout the earth, the earthly class, or the anointed members of the GB. Obviously once in heaven, they are very different from the earthly class, in every way.

A situation that I think (in my mind) kind of illustrates the “domestics/anointed/FDS rolled into one” idea is when during the memorial (I am only using the memorial for the purpose of an example, not any significance that it is the memorial) emblems are passed around. Towards the end, the attendants who have been passing the emblems around also need the emblems to be passed to them.  All this is done in a symbolic way of course, but the point is that their function as emblem distributors is just a logistical function to get the emblems from platform, to one row to the next, and then back to the platform.

At the last supper that Christ had with his apostles, Judas was present before the New Covenant was introduced to those he had chosen. Mark 14:17-21; John 13:27  He facilitated the wishes of the Pharisees, by turning Jesus over to be killed that very night.   Judas was doomed to destruction , meaning he was the “son of destruction”.  John 17:12

Comparatively, the men who pass out the emblems to those chosen under the New Covenant – the anointed ones - perform the wishes of the GB to disfellowship them when exposing their lies. Disfellowshipping is a spiritual “death”. Rev 13:15  These are the men who say they “REPRESENT” the priesthood of God. (WT 02/8/1)   If we represent someone, we should know what important matters should be voiced, no?  Instead, the anointed must OBEY the men who REPRESENT them, with no questions asked.   

5 hours ago, Anna said:

"...there is no partiality with God"- Romans 2:11

Rom 2:11 - Paul wrote to the anointed, both to Jews and the Gentiles at the merging of these two peoples into the anointed Body of Christ.  This is why he said “God shows no favoritism”. In the Watchtower, favoritism is how the organization is operated, through the use of titles and special recognition not based on scripture; and the elder body is “favored” over the anointed ones.  The GB is "favored" over  the anointed ones.  

The commission to preach about the Christ was given to those Jesus chose, and filtered down to all anointed as their task to perform as a “special possession” of God.  Isa 43:10; 1 Pet 2:5,9  You say there is no difference, but I doubt you understand that the anointed must follow the path of Christ.  They must sacrifice their life for the rest of the children to come. Rev 12:1  This demand isn’t put upon all believers, is it.  Do you know what the fulfillment of the New Covenant brings to all of God’s children?  “Healing of the nations”.  How?  By “New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven” as the Bride.  Rev 21:2  Who comprise New Jerusalem? Who are the dwelling of God? 

 While you believe there is no distinction needing to be made between the anointed and all believers in Christ, it wasn’t so in the apostle’s day.  The commission to preach was given to them.  Men have changed the scriptures to suit their idol.  Men, who are destroying the Temple of God by replacing it with the elder body and an organization.    1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 13:11

The early temple was the center of worship.  Today’s “center” of worship are the anointed, since scripture says they are the dwelling place, God’s Temple, through the blessing of Holy Spirit within their heart. 1 Cor 3:16,17   If they are connected to their Head, living water of truth would flow freely as they teach, reaching each hearer thirsty for life’s freely given waters.  John 4:10-14  This is worshiping in “spirit” and in truth.  John 4:23,24  They are the “trees” of life that Ezek 47:12  mentions – trees becoming one with Christ, who is the primary tree of life.  Gen 2:9; Rev 22:14

JWs believe the organization is their “temple”, complete with a false priesthood and “christs”. Matt 24:24  This is why the anointed are considered useless and no different than all JWs, until the coming Kingdom of God.  

Her priests do violence to my law and profane my holy things; they do not distinguish between the holy and the commonthey teach that there is no difference between the unclean and the clean; and they shut their eyes to the keeping of my Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.  Ezek 22:26

By the organization teaching that the anointed are just along for the ride, Jesus’ answer to those who failed to recognize these “living stones”, reverberate loudly,

Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”  Matt 25:44-46

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.”  John 13:20

This does not include a GB that has already marked their place in heaven. 

 

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On 1/29/2019 at 9:35 AM, BillyTheKid46 said:

Remember this is an individual that emphatically stated Fred Franz endorsed the assumption of the end of the world in 1975, by his own admission and audio/video proof. However, if this is the same manipulated audio/video recording found on the internet generated by apostates, it would be a reason for such an endorsement.

Not only did I emphatically state just the opposite about Fred Franz, I happened to be one here who exposed the apostate recording as a manipulated "fake" recording. But the recording I linked to is not manipulated. The recording does not show Fred Franz endorsing the assumption of the end of the world in 1975. It shows how he speaks in such a way that he repeatedly elicits the most vocal response from those who see that he is endorsing the closeness of the end to the year 1975, and even a remaining possibility for the year 1975, but never endorsing the assumption. It does create a deception. But there really is a difference.

Over time, I expect that all the emphasis on 1975 really did shift the focus away from that Adam-to-Even time gap, by minimizing it to a period of only weeks or months and not years. It must have been minimized almost into oblivion because before the year 1975 was even finished, there was suddenly a lot less talk about great urgency and heightened watchfulness. The convention talk titles show this. I just checked the Kingdom Ministry for the use of the word "urgency" for the decade of the 1970's. It was used ZERO times in 1976.

  image.png

You would think, that if anyone still "believed" in the 6,000 year rhetoric after 1975 commenced without evidence, that the word urgency would have doubled and tripled right up through 1978 or even a bit further. But it drops to nearly nothing, in fact completely disappearing between August 1975 and December 1977. Disappearing for 28 months, and just as sparse until the decade of the 1970s runs out. 

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3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You spelled sauna wrong. I won't marry you.

“Mornin boys,” Fred greeted the room. “They say it’s going to be cold in the MidWest for the next two days, mighty cold.” At once two thirds of those in the room voted with him that it would be so. And then....

sigh... I guess not.

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