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JOHN BUTLER

Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit

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1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

Can we also say you don’t have proof Fred Franz didn’t?

That's true. I have no proof that Fred Franz didn't. But if Fred Franz really had challenged the book in any way, that surely would have been huge news. Some Witness somewhere would surely have made a note of it. Interesting, however, that some Witnesses have said that they first heard about certain controversial issues (re: WTS history) in this book by R.Franz, and believed that some of these things could not really be true. But then Frederick Franz gave a talk in 1985, about two years after the book CoC came out, and confirmed many of the same controversial issues out of his own mouth. You can hear it here:

https://archive.org/details/DecisionMyLifeStoryByFredFranz

It's a 1 hour and 33 minute talk, but you can find about 10 minutes of excerpts from it in shorter versions on YouTube. Obviously, Fred Franz didn't mention the book, but he surely had a chance to challenge something in it, and instead he either purposely or inadvertently expresses agreement with many details that some Witnesses had first seen in R.Franz book, and had found difficult to believe.

But the main point, of course, is that your "redirection" above sounds like evidence that you didn't have any specific examples after all. Until you offer any, I'll assume that you found no evidence of inaccurate details in the book.

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

I’m not mentally challenged spiritually to accept apostate literature that you seem to want to promote.

I'm not trying to promote the book. I don't know his motives for writing it. I only know what he claimed, and those claims might be true, and they might be untrue. If his claimed reasons are true, then it is very understandable why he felt it necessary to write the book. If they are false, then we can probably impute all kinds of wrong reasons for him to write such a book.

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

This person angered over being overlooked for president is a classic case of narcissism.

Maybe he was. I don't know of anyone who had evidence that he was being overlooked or if even if he was actually being considered the prime choice after Fred Franz. I was handling assignments for Brother Albert Schroeder at the time Schroeder was involved in a kind of campaign against R.Franz, and I did get a very strong sense that Brother Schroeder did not want to be overlooked for the office of President. So it is possible that R.Franz was like him, too. I only knew R.Franz through reputation and his 15 minute comments when it was his weekly rotation at "morning worship."

I can tell you that among many serious Bethelites, including many Bethel Elders in the late 1970's and up until 1980, there was a lot of talk that R.Franz would be the most likely candidate for next president after his uncle died. This was one of the reasons that news of his resignation from the Governing Body, and news of his leaving Bethel shocked so many brothers and sisters. There was even a lot of crying, and a line of people waiting at his door to say good-bye to him and his wife the day they left Bethel. But just because a person has a humble and loving reputation, you still don't know what is going on in their heart.

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@Anna  I quoted from FelixCA  " If you’re a person that is looking for excuses to fade or leave, promote this book if you must, just keep the Watchtower and faithful followers of Christ out. Perhaps JW only would be more suitable to discuss this among yourselves since no one will be able to refute misguided understanding." 

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40 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

expresses agreement with many details that some Witnesses had first seen in R.Franz book, and had found difficult to believe.

I can see that it would have been difficult to challenge some of these things, because by themselves, if stated completely factually, without any emotion whatsoever, they were unchallengeable. What was disputable though (in my opinion) was the tone and implication of the things that RF wrote, that could be, and were, misleading.  He was definitely not without bias, and I could point out a number of statements he made that were 'twisted'. (I would have to look for this again because I do not think I made a note of them, and if I did it was quite a long time ago, so I don't think I could find them that easily, but I do remember there was quite a number).

My point is; I think that if  Fred Franz would have made some effort in pointing out these obvious biases and subtle misrepresentations he would have had to do so by writing a book himself, as a kind of rebuttal, rather than talking about them. And you and I both know that this is not an option the GB consider.

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15 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@Anna  I quoted from FelixCA  " If you’re a person that is looking for excuses to fade or leave, promote this book if you must, just keep the Watchtower and faithful followers of Christ out. Perhaps JW only would be more suitable to discuss this among yourselves since no one will be able to refute misguided understanding." 

Sure, but I was asking about YOUR definition

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20 minutes ago, Anna said:

What was disputable though (in my opinion) was the tone and implication of the things that RF wrote, that could be, and were, misleading.  He was definitely not without bias, and I could point out a number of statements he made that were 'twisted'.

This book became a long, ongoing conversation for a few years among my former roommates at Bethel and another Bethelite who was a groomsman at my wedding, and a friend who had remained in the Writing Department for 30 years after my last Bethel assignment. (In 4 years at Bethel, I had 5 different roommates, and four of them have talked to me about the book.) This doesn't prove anything, but a former roommate (Service/Correspondence), and the brother in Writing, have both confirmed that copies of R.Franz books were kept in the Writing Dept "special" library since the early 1980's.

Of course, he had bias. And I'm sure he would only choose or emphasize details that would lead one toward that same bias. We are all taught to do that, because there is nothing wrong with bias if it's a bias toward what's true. And, though I don't have proof yet, I also think he was wrong about a couple of things, too. But I tend to think he was factually accurate because I have found good corroboration for a couple of things I personally questioned. Also because it is much more important for someone in his position to pay more than the usual attention to all details claimed, for the same reasons that an outsider plaintiff must be extra careful in a "David v. Goliath" type of court case. One false claim and you get crushed.

If you can recall any of those items you thought "twisted" that could be very important to the current discussion.

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2 hours ago, Anna said:

So my point was that we should not be surprised if someone we previously considered good turns bad.

I do agree.

2 hours ago, Anna said:

I do not believe however that Judas was "destined" to be bad, as that would have deprived him of the freedom of choice that has been given to all intelligent creatures in heaven and on earth. 

 

We all have free will, anyone can and accept the cleansing Word of Christ…unless we have already chosen and ultimately “sealed” our heart to follow another path.   Jesus knew Judas’ hardened, unbending heart condition,  before he was chosen among the twelve.  Scriptures reveal this fact.  John  13:18 (Ps 41:9); John 8:31

None of the teachings by Christ absolved him of his sins.  John 12:4-6; 13:10,11

His prophetic role is verified in the Hebrew scriptures.  Acts 1:16-20; (Ps 69:25; 109:8)

Free will is expressed by our heart’s desire.  This man’s heart made the free choice to pursue evil before joining with Christ.

While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.  John 17:12

 “The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
10 I, the Lord, search the heart,
I search (examine, investigate) the mind, (the most secret parts)
Even to give every man according to his ways,
According to the fruit of his doings." 
Jer 17:9,10

God knows the end of all things from the beginning, including the sway of our heart.  Isa 46:10

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Anna said:

Sure, but I was asking about YOUR definition

Those seeking truth, not position or just friendship. People like myself, but better than me, that don't mind being shunned for truth. 

And it seems there are people on here looking for truth rather than looking for the easy way. 

The JW Org is the easy way now because there are so many JW's that a person can live their whole life in the Org. 

That is why so many are frightened of the Elders, and frightened to look for truth, because being in the Org has become a comfortable way of life in the Western world. To lose the Org for some people would be the worst thing that could ever happen to them. 

Hence many chose the GB and JW Org, over God and Jesus Christ. 

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23 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

If you can recall any of those items you thought "twisted" that could be very important to the current discussion.

Yes, I figured as much xD. I am back on my laptop, slowly recovering from my...whatever virus it was....but I also have a lot of work I have to catch up on so I can't fully concentrate on here. But of course time allowing I will search for it, if it means I have to read the book again! The problem also with any active Witness who would like to write some kind of rebuttal and put their name to it is practically impossible, for obvious reasons, therefore the book has remained largely unchallenged, I think. It definitely gives much impetus to those who are looking for an excuse to get out though.

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

That's true. I have no proof that Fred Franz didn't. But if Fred Franz really had challenged the book in any way, that surely would have been huge news. Some Witness somewhere would surely have made a note of it. Interesting, however, that some Witnesses have said that they first heard about certain controversial issues (re: WTS history) in this book by R.Franz, and believed that some of these things could not really be true. But then Frederick Franz gave a talk in 1985, about two years after the book CoC came out, and confirmed many of the same controversial issues out of his own mouth.

Wouldn’t that be the point for Raymond? Self-serving especially having to rely on people like Carl to make a comparison. Was this an ExJW’s dream come true? I would imagine there were more members at Bethel that would disagree with the interest of Raymond’s book, possed.

I have several Bethel members at my hall that didn’t find the appeal on how Raymond coined the phrase the truth. Therefore, I don’t see any benefit for true Christians, maybe someone that poison the well like butler but that’s just hurting him.

But just like anything, being critical of the Bible student era has always been an argument for those that apostasy. What other misbegotten did Raymond inherit by following others rather than trust in God what he accomplished for the Watchtower just to throw it away because of pride?

Everything that goes inside at Bethel is not always made public no matter how hard anyone thinks the GB is an open book. So, no, if someone would have been critical of Raymond, it wouldn’t be ritually exposed.

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