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Inspired Choices? Jesus Picked Judas; Governing Body Picked Raymond Franz;


JOHN BUTLER

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I think when it comes to God, there are naturally many things we cannot, and NEVER will, comprehend about him. Like the the concept of him having no beginning. Everything he wants us to know about him, he has revealed in the Bible. And of course as Melinda mentioned, we know about his qualities through ourselves, because we were created in his image. When it comes to free will, it is a gift from God, and he never has taken that away from any of his intelligent creatures. It makes sense that Jehovah can 'predict' what a person will do, because even we can correctly predict what someone will do. Jehovah can do that so much better because he can read hearts. We can only go by what we see, hear and past experience.

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You appear to be placing the GB on the same level as Jesus Christ, which I agree that they have accomplished this.  Jesus altered the Jewish teaching because its leaders spoke as their "father", Satan

“At some point”. Yes, he prayed because he said he did nothing but what the Father told him.  John 5:30; 8:28.  Since God knows all things, do you believe He would keep Judas as the betrayer a secret

But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 5 “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.” 6 He did not say this be

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Just a thought about “image”.  Adam and Eve were “made in the image of God”  Did they retain that image after they sinned?  Or did they adopt another “image”, one as the result of sin?

"Then God said, 'Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.' So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.
God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day."     Gen 1:26,27,31

 

It ceased being very good when Adam and Eve sinned.

And he said to the man, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'Do not eat from it': The ground is cursed because of you. You will eat from it by means of painful labor all the days of your life.   Gen 3:17

He called them “mankind” when they were created, when they possessed the Spirit of God.    Gen 5:1,2  Once they sinned, God’s Spirit left them according to their choice and they were no longer considered Sons of God who would live eternally, but suffered decay and death.  Rom 8:20,21

We choose the “image” we want to portray.  Either Satan and lies, which lead to destruction, or only God and Christ through his teachings bringing eternal life.  We can’t be slaves to both and expect Jesus to grant us salvation. Rom 6:16   The image of God is pure, perfect, blameless.  Jesus set the example for us; we are to follow closely in his footsteps to achieve that image of God. 2 Cor 4:4; Col 3:10; Rom 13:14   Any other "image" that we may follow, and that touts the source of salvation would not be pure, perfect, and blameless.  

 

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@Srecko Sostar Frida, God doesn't need to "act" as God, he is God. Él es mi padre y tu padre.

God doesn't change. God is love, Just, in Order, etc. When he does something there is reason behind it, when he says something, it will happend and it will be done.

God isn't unrigehotus. If you don't understand God's thinking then it would pose as a problem. And you have time to do this, and if not, well you'll be outta time, my guy.

God is a real person, and anyone can speak to him and be close to him as many in the past. He isn't impossibly far from anyone. 

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7 hours ago, Equivocation said:

to "act"

....perhaps my English cause misunderstanding 

act

/akt/

verb
  1. 1.
    take action; do something.
    "they urged Washington to act"
    sinonimi: take action, take steps, take measures, take the initiative, move, make a move, react, do something, proceed, go ahead; 
     
     
  2. 2.
    behave in the way specified.
    "they challenged a man who was seen acting suspiciously"
    sinonimi: behave, function, react, perform; 
noun
  1. 1.
    a thing done; a deed.
    "a criminal act"
    sinonimi: deed, action, gesture, feat, exploit, move, performance, undertaking, manoeuvre, stunt, operation, venture, effort, enterprise, achievement, accomplishment
    "a life filled with acts of kindness"
  2. 2.
    a pretence.
    "she was putting on an act and laughing a lot"
    sinonimi: pretence, false display, show, front, facade, masquerade, charade, guise, posture, pose, affectation, appearance; Više
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On 1/29/2019 at 1:50 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

?? He changed Law. From Mosaic to Christ law. for example :))

Well true, but nothing changed, only fulfilled in the one man's teachings.  

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.   Matt 5:17-19

 

On 1/26/2019 at 3:40 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Did He saw what things will take place in the future

or

did He saw what things will not take place in the future?   

:))))

Both.  :)  Isa 46:10; Prov 24:12; 1 John 3:20

 

On 1/28/2019 at 5:56 PM, Equivocation said:

If you don't understand God's thinking then it would pose as a problem. And you have time to do this, and if not, well you'll be outta time, my guy.

Who understands God's thinking.? Only Christ does.  If we deviate whatsoever from his teachings, how can we even begin to understand God's thinking? 

“Who is this that obscures my plans
    with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
    Tell me, if you understand.  Job 38:1-4

 

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

Well true, but nothing changed, only fulfilled in the one man's teachings.  

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.   Matt 5:17-19

I mean on change that is visible in aspects as; Kill "apostates"  vs turn the other cheek, love your enemies, etc. :)   100% change

The man who acts presumptuously by not obeying the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall purge the evil from Israel.

“If there is found among you, within any of your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abomination has been done in Israel, then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones.

David prayer against his enemies:

May the table set before them become a snare;
    may it become retribution and a trap.
23 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
    and their backs be bent forever.
24 Pour out your wrath on them;
    let your fierce anger overtake them.
25 May their place be deserted;
    let there be no one to dwell in their tents.
26 For they persecute those you wound
    and talk about the pain of those you hurt.
27 Charge them with crime upon crime;
    do not let them share in your salvation.
28 May they be blotted out of the book of life
    and not be listed with the righteous.

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20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I mean on change that is visible in aspects as; Kill "apostates"  vs turn the other cheek, love your enemies, etc. :)   100% change

I think I see now what you’re saying.    Jesus raised the bar to exceed the written laws given to the Jews, allowing sinless perfection in love to be obtained through the writing of the laws on the heart. Heb 10:9-18  He introduced a New Covenant, one where we worship in spirit and truth, sanctifying us through truth. 

The Pharisees were good at tweaking, bending and adding to God’s laws, making the load impossible for the people bear.  It all sounds very familiar 😊   The organization has done the same thing with the teachings of Christ.  It spiritually murders, steals, covets and commits spiritual adultery by bending Christ’s decrees to be supplemented by the decrees of men.  A mediator for salvation comes between Christ and ourselves – the organization. 

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.  Rom 13:8-10

Yet, if this new “law” in Christ is broken, God’s Spirit of protection is removed and condemnation follows.  God has given the judgment to Christ, but the executor is Satan, the Destroyer, and always has been. 1 Cor 10:8-11 

I always remember Moses’ words to a stubborn people, forever sinning against God’s decrees  

I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”  Deut 30:19

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 14:6

While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!”  Matt 17:5

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On 1/30/2019 at 10:33 AM, Witness said:

Well true, but nothing changed, only fulfilled in the one man's teachings.  

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.   Matt 5:17-19

 

Both.  :)  Isa 46:10; Prov 24:12; 1 John 3:20

 

Who understands God's thinking.? Only Christ does.  If we deviate whatsoever from his teachings, how can we even begin to understand God's thinking? 

“Who is this that obscures my plans
    with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
    Tell me, if you understand.  Job 38:1-4

 

People can understand God's way of thinking also mainly when it comes to decisions and other things, Witness. An example would be making a choice of something that isnt of Jehovah God's thinking vs. Something of man's thinking. 

In School, they teach us that homosexuality and transgender is okay and these teachers encourage teens to teach children this.

Clearly this isn't okay, and this isn't okay with God. Man's thinking will allow him or her to accept this whereas Jehovah's thinking allows us to make the right choice in this example and other things. 

I dunno if you are aware of what's being taught to toddlers nowadays. One group in particular I often see on media and social media is queer kids group, they often go after those who are against them. They also try to use the Bible to justify homosexuality. 

You and I both know God detests homosexuality and Jesus does not accept this either, reasons why these guys who support that stuff has time to turn a leaf, repent and change. I only preached to one homosexual once, but his buddies were Bible bashing weeks later and he stopped the discussion later on.

Side note, Jesus' disciples and followers applied God's way of thinking. Why assume it was only Jesus lol?

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15 hours ago, Equivocation said:

People can understand God's way of thinking also mainly when it comes to decisions and other things, Witness. An example would be making a choice of something that isnt of Jehovah God's thinking vs. Something of man's thinking. 

 

Side note, Jesus' disciples and followers applied God's way of thinking. Why assume it was only Jesus lol?

Thank you for your thoughts.

I believe applying God’s decrees is different than actually knowing Him as a child of God.  Do I know Him enough to understand what it means to praise His name?  I am on the ground floor of comprehending  God as My Rock; since for many years, even though I spoke as such, I relied on an earthly entity to be my “rock”, my fortress. 

Comments by the organization divert the attention from the Rock, to itself:

“As mountains have permanence and are identified often in Scripture with governmental functions, so God’s haven of refuge today is to be found with his theocratic organization.  w82 9/15 pp. 17-22 

I cannot see a clear demarcation between the way the Watchtower corporation is run and the “functions” it provides, and any other governmental function.   Run by a “governing” body, who declare that the “mountainlike organization” is the only source of salvation, can you really believe this shows its leaders have full knowledge of the Father when they exalt the name of an organization, as a “haven of refuge”?  Can I trust such a leadership that robs God of due praise and glory by placing it on something established in Satan’s world?  Do we have two havens of refuge, two choices of salvation?

 “With whom will you compare Me or count me equal? To whom will you liken me that we may be compared?  Isa 46:5

In God is my salvation and my glory; The rock of my strength, And my refugeis in God.  Ps 62:7

“I will say of the Lord, “He is my refuge and my fortressMy God, in Him I will trust.”  Ps 91:2

Now, I realize the blasphemy of labeling anything earthly as a “haven of refuge”, when only the Father can hold that title.  I am a child who is just beginning to understand and fear the true God.

Jesus said,

“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” 

The Pharisees asked Jesus,

 “Where is your father?”   You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”  John 8:19

The Pharisees and Sadducees knew and taught God’s decrees, but still Jesus told them they didn’t “know” the Father, because they didn’t accept Jesus.  This taught me an important point; even though I spoke about God and Christ, I was far from knowing either one of them while in the organization.

Yes, the apostles learned about God through Christ.  We can see through scripture that it was progressive.  When I said no one knows the Father except Christ, I was thinking more of my circumstances, and all the anointed during this time period before the end.  I should have been more specific.  The faithful anointed throughout years are fully one in Christ, who is one in the Lord.  John 17:22  They carry the name of God and Christ.  Rev 3:12  They “know” God and the power of His name. 

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.   John 14:6

I take this seriously.  In order for me to know the Father as His erring child, I must know Christ.  I let go of a “governmental function” and turned my attention to Jesus…AND the Father. 

“But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christand be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.”  Phil 3:7-14

When I rejected the organization, where the anointed spiritual “Israel” resides, this is what happened:

 “All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.   John 16:2,3

Disfellowshipping is a spiritual “killing”, directed by the elders who say they are “offering a service to God” by ousting those who turn fully to Christ.  I view this fulfillment as stepping on the right path to “know” not only Jesus Christ, but also the Father. 

By believing that the organization is a “haven and refuge”, one is “marked” by that name.  By believing that only God is our Rock, I hope to be “marked” by God’s name – to be be found  faithful and victorious in upholding and bearing His name and the name of His Son.  Then, I will confidently “know” God.  Rev 3:8,12

We cannot bear the mark/identity of an organization that we may love…

The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.

People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?” Rev 13:4

The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander His name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. Rev 13:5,6

…which disfellowships those who refuse to bear its identifying “mark”, expecting them to only “buy” their brand of spiritual food…

It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.  Rev 13:16,17

and also bear the “mark” of God:

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is oneLove the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheadsWrite them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates. 

To begin knowing God and His decrees/commandments fulfilled in Christ, we must begin by knowing, and turning to, Jesus Christ.  I fully believe it can’t be accomplished in the Watchtower organization that relies heavily on the thinking of men.

 

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3 hours ago, Equivocation said:

@Witness And yet my view and morals still stand on the issue. Have you changed anyone's life who supports such things?

There's people out there who use the Bible to justify homosexuality, and this blew up since the day the cake shop owner threw hands before Court. 

Which things?  It's not the question of who's life I change, but who are changed by truth in scripture.  

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