The Reproach of Child Sexual Abuse Falls on the Abuser

[Witness]

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Um, it's proving to me more and more that the JW org brain deadens people. 

But you don't care because to you lot it's just collateral damage. 

No one calls for justice;
    no one pleads a case with integrity.
They rely on empty arguments, they utter lies;
    they conceive trouble and give birth to evil.

Their feet rush into sin;
    they are swift to shed innocent blood.
They pursue evil schemes;
    acts of violence mark their ways.
⁸ The way of peace they do not know;
    there is no justice in their paths.
They have turned them into crooked roads;
    no one who walks along them will know peace.

⁹ So justice is far from us,
    and righteousness does not reach us.
We look for light, but all is darkness;
    for brightness, but we walk in deep shadows.
¹⁰ Like the blind we grope along the wall,
    feeling our way like people without eyes.
At midday we stumble as if it were twilight;
    among the strong, we are like the dead.
¹¹ We all growl like bears;
    we moan mournfully like doves.
We look for justice, but find none;
    for deliverance, but it is far away.

¹² For our offenses are many in your sight,
    and our sins testify against us.
Our offenses are ever with us,
    and we acknowledge our iniquities:
¹³ rebellion and treachery against the Lord,
    turning our backs on our God,
inciting revolt and oppression,
    uttering lies our hearts have conceived.
¹⁴ So justice is driven back,
    and righteousness stands at a distance;
truth has stumbled in the streets,
    honesty cannot enter.
¹⁵ Truth is nowhere to be found,
    and whoever shuns evil becomes a prey.  Isa 59:4,7-15

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I would be lying if i said I wouldn't accept payout for what I suffered

I would be lying if I said I wouldn’t accept payout for merely being TrueTom.

When the rules of the game change, you can hardly blame the small players for adjusting to accommodate them. There was a time, I think you will remember it, too, when nothing was so crass as for lawyers to advertise. It was against their universal code of conduct, possibly even against the law. It explains the phrase “ambulance chaser” - you actually had to chase an ambulance to sign up a client before another lawyer did. You couldn’t just broadcast to the whole wide world that you were scouring the earth for clients.

Someone dear to me was sued several times with regard to rental property, in another matter that had a very long statute of limitations. When what proved to be the final lawsuit came in, the person sought to make defense through his own lawyer. That lawyer contacted several times but could not get a response from the firm bringing suit. Finally that firm admitted that they were having a hard time locating their client. In other words, they were leaving no stone unturned in desperately seeking business and had finally found “aggrieved” ones who’s cases were so tenuous that they couldn’t even be bothered to show up.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

i cannot see any basis for having to attend a KH for weeks whilst no one is allowed to talk to you, and everyone looks down on you, until the Elders give the signal that it's ok. Where is the love there ?  

This may be your interpretation. I have seen many disfellowshipped ones go through the process and return. Nobody looks down upon them. It causes pure joy to the congregation that normal association may soon resume.

Think of it as a game, if you like, admittedly silly in some respects, but forced upon humans because they cannot read hearts. It is like a teen I knew very well who was disfellowshipped. He lived in the family home throughout. When on one super-cold morning he parked in the KH lot and strode toward the building without a coat, I broke all protocol and said “I know that there’s no contact and all, but did they even have to take your coat?”

He liked that one, and in not too long a time he was reinstated.

[JW Insider]

On 2/23/2019 at 3:33 AM, BillyTheKid46 said:

Back then, secular authority was dismissive of many things that they take into account now. This person remained an Elder until 2006 when the girls were able to speak with the local judicial committee where this person resided. They came to the conclusion the girls were credible enough to remove this person as Elder and never hold a position of congregational responsibility ever, within the organization.

So sorry for the abuse and extended trauma of your relatives.

Quite true that secular authority was much more dismissive in the past. Some secular authorities are still dismissive today. Even US Attorney Acosta broke the law by hiding the plea deal with Jeffrey Epstein (wealthy hedge fund manager) after at least 30 underage female victims came forward. There are indications that the actual number of victims may have been in the hundreds along with rumors that he escaped prosecution for years by flying recruited underage girls to a private island Epstein owns.

Acosta claims that his actions, although obviously illegal, were signed off by 'all levels of government.' That's an odd or even loaded expression when there are pictures of Trump and Clinton with Epstein. I don't think either of them ever denied flying to his personal island with him. Trump even made Acosta his Labor Secretary after the Epstein cover-up. Of course, this doesn't mean criminal behavior by Trump or Clinton. It could just be a coincidence.

But this is just a high-level case. I've heard of high school students molesting younger students and schools trying to hide the case from police, even recently. When it's a teacher, or coach, there is often a network of their peers and administrators who will cover for them. I know of a local case where police declined to arrest/investigate a coach when the crimes seemed obvious. Hopefully this is changing for the better everywhere.

I'd have to agree that sometimes in the past, this dismissive attitude by secular authorities has limited how far a congregation felt they could reasonably investigate a case, too.

19 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

That is far from the truth. Even Bro. Knorr got to weigh in on a case about child abuse. A case, your good friend and confidante should be well aware of. Why has he kept silent? What is his motive?

Just in case this supposed "good friend and confidante" was me, I'll weigh in. The truth is I had no idea what you were talking about with Knorr weighing in on a case about child abuse. It seemed quite possible, so I don't doubt that he may have involved himself in one one or more such cases.

But I googled some of the content you included about that case and only found it on watchtowerdocuments.org which is a site run by ex-JW Barbara Anderson. I looked at the particular case and see that you are mistaken about it.

This is not a case about child abuse. It's a case where the Astoria, Queens, NY congregation had a Bethelite (Brooklyn) assigned to it who had broken off an engagement with a sister there, and admitted to loose (brazen) conduct during the engagement. He had evidently done something similar (broken 'promises' to a sister along with loose conduct) back in his 'home' congregation before being invited to Bethel. He was dismissed from Bethel as of September 19th 1970 (and replaced as Book Study servant by a 19 year old brand new Bethelite in the next couple of months). The Astoria, NY congregation had announced his "probation" and quoted the direction they got from Knorr to the South Carolina congregation where the brother had just moved, letting them know about the case and that it would be OK to announce that he had been dismissed from the Bethel family (per Knorr's letter).

[TrueTomHarley]

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I cannot see any basis for having to attend a KH for weeks whilst no one is allowed to talk to you, and everyone looks down on you, until the Elders give the signal that it's ok. Where is the love there ?  

I know it’s my second shot at this and that you did not argue with the first one. 

But I wonder where you got this from. It’s quite the opposite. Not only are they not looked down upon, but they are greatly respected because congregation members know what is involved.

There are two possibilities. 1.) You read it somewhere, or 2.) You think it yourself.

If you read it somewhere, then I would submit that it is deliberately planted by those who dislike Jehovah’s Witnesses in order to dissuade anyone who has left from returning.

If you think it yourself, then I would suggest that your perception is off. I do not blame you for it. I also would not categorically state that there are not yo-yos here and there that might give cause for that perception, but it is not the reality. It only hurts you to think it.

 It is not true, but my point to you is that even if it were, it is only true in your case if you accede to it. Don’t, if at all possible.

Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

23 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The only one still standing [of clergy-penitent, doctor-patient, and lawyer-client privilege] is their own. [the lawyer’s]

I’ve given thought to this. Strip them of it. Why should they be allowed to enable child sexual abuse?

Make them report to police anything they learn from a client as soon as they learn it.

If the profession actually cares about children, it will promptly accede to this.

Of course, they would scream to high heaven that they have noble reasons not to do this. I would agree with them. It makes their job (that of defense attorneys) all but impossible. 

The point is that there are noble reasons for the other two relationships to exist, as well. Exercising them does not automatically make you a lover of child abuse. 

And I keep coming back to that November 20th, 2011 Democratic and Chronicle article (which unfortunately is now behind a paywall - if anyone has access, I would appreciate if a pertinent line or two was fair-use quoted) that two thirds of all professionals who ARE mandated by law to report child sexual abuse fail to do it.

[JOHN BUTLER]

Tom I'm an EX JW. I don't need to read it anywhere. I saw it regularly at Honiton, East Devon, England, Kingdom Hall.  

As I've said I'm not interested in returning to the place. I thought I had friends, but they were just 'brothers and sisters', not friends. I would never trust any of them again. And I never trusted the Elderes anyway. I don't trust any policemen in the Org or out of it. 

There is no point in me telling you stuff as it just gets me accused of being a liar, or off making it up. (It gives the Kid something to whine about too)  But, the reason being that you and others have your minds set on the Org being full of good people. Truth is, the Org is not full of good people Tom. It seems full of people that just want to serve the GB through the Elders. So if the Elders are bad then the congregation are bad. 

I've seen a congregation in Bristol England that was run by two Elders. A father and his son. All the other Elders just did as they were told. 

Anyway Tom you are giving it your second shot. So give me three scriptures that directly say that no one should talk to a ex-JW when they walk into a Kingdom Hall. 

[TrueTomHarley]

6 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

. I thought I had friends, but they were just 'brothers and sisters', not friends. I would never trust any of them again. And I never trusted the Elderes anyway. I don't trust any policemen in the Org or out of it. 

Yes, but it means nothing. You have frankly said that you don’t trust anybody in any capacity, anywhere, at all. Everyone has some whom they they trust. You have admitted to having no one. It long pre-dates any association with Jehovah’s Witnesses.

It’s very sad and you are taking no actions to fix that situation here.

Moreover, you do not perceive that such a tragedy may just have resulted in warped judgement.

[JOHN BUTLER]

58 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yes, but it means nothing. You have frankly said that you don’t trust anybody in any capacity, anywhere, at all. Everyone has some whom they they trust. You have admitted to having no one. It long pre-dates any association with Jehovah’s Witnesses.

It’s very sad and you are taking no actions to fix that situation here.

Moreover, you do not perceive that such a tragedy may just have resulted in warped judgement.

Actually Tom i do agree with you about warped judgement.

Because all humans are mentally unbalanced. Because we are all imperfect. Any one that thinks he/she is mentally all good, is only deceiving themselves. It's one reason we cannot judge ourselves correctly. Because we only see what we want to see or judge by what we ourselves know. I've long since given up on trying to figure myself out. 

However i haven't given up on trying to warn other people about things that i have personal experience with. I might not trust anyone but it does not mean i hate everyone. It just means that i have no warm feelings toward anyone. I could never love anyone. There is a neutral point, a non feeling. Some of us have to have that to survive Tom. 

So my happiness comes from small things, like seeing birds in the garden, driving one of my cars, walking on the beach in the sunshine, exercising, the list is endless. I don't need people to make me happy. I do wonder however, 1. If  i will get a resurrection, and 2. how i will cope with people in the New World'.  If 1. doesn't happen then 2. won't be a problem. And the KId tells me I'm beyond hope. 

But, just a question Tom. How many people do you think have been sexually abused within the JW Org Earthwide in the last 50 years? 

Because most of them will now have a 'warped judgement' about life. 

And they will have been sexually abused by a JW that had a warped judgement about their right to abuse another human. . 

[TrueTomHarley]

10 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

So, forgive me for not buying what your selling. 🤔

It’s quite all right, Billy. We’re on the same team, and both out in a strange realm where conventional tactics may or may not be the way to go.

[JW Insider]

On 2/24/2019 at 2:09 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

And I keep coming back to that November 20th, 2011 Democratic and Chronicle article (which unfortunately is now behind a paywall - if anyone has access, I would appreciate if a pertinent line or two was fair-use quoted) that two thirds of all professionals who ARE mandated by law to report child sexual abuse fail to do it.

A research package I have through a university alumni account only provides the basic subscription to NEWSPAPERS.COM but does not include the "Publisher Extra Newspapers" unless I travel a couple hundred miles and access it from on the premises. But it does tell me that it's here: https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/137512481/ and that this is page 19 of the 11/20/2011 Democrat and Chronicle (Rochester, NY).

I can't get all the text from it without paying, but I can tell you that you will also find the identical quote you are looking for below, where anyone can access it for free. (It matches the quote as found in your book.)

http://www.naasca.org/2011-CrimeNews/110111-5-RecentCrime.htm

Reporting abuse

It is a mistake to think that the failure of Penn State authorities to report abuse is a rarity, child abuse educators, prosecutors and investigators say.

Studies across the country over the past two decades have consistently shown that nearly two-thirds of professionals required to report all cases of suspected abuse fail to do so. That is because they are uncertain of whether abuse occurred, are fearful of making false accusations or are unsure of their obligation.

"Mandated reporting of abuse only works as well as the people it's reported to," said Dan Gleason, a retired Rochester Police Department investigator who is now a private investigator.

"People sometimes try to be judge and jury when the victim discloses. If they don't believe it, they don't report it."

Every state has a law that requires professionals to report all suspected cases of child abuse or maltreatment they encounter professionally.

Under New York's law, enacted in 1973, mandatory reporters include physicians, nurses, teachers and school officials, social workers, police officers, daycare and social service workers, and therapists.

Lawmakers in Albany have proposed closing what they see as a loophole in the state's mandated reporting statute that, unlike the law in Pennsylvania, excludes college coaches and administrators in the belief that colleges have little contact with children.

Meanwhile, watching what has been happening at Penn State and Syracuse leaves Scuteri angry and exasperated.

"Who's in charge, and who's doing what?" he said. "What's going on?"

[JW Insider]

6 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

You know, you could be right

Thanks.

6 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I believe the theme here is also consistent, that the Watchtower has NEVER made any recommendations toward child abuse.

That's certainly not a theme I would agree with. It's inconsistent with the facts. One of the earliest mentions of child sexual abuse was in a 5/15/1970 Watchtower, and there was a previous mention in the 1960's, I forget just where it was now.

6 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

On May 6, 1970, the congregation committee of the ___Unit, New York N.Y. , congregation, met to review the charges and the admittance of ____to indecent exposure of his sexual parts before____, the 15 year old daughter of his wife, ___. After hearing this matter in the presence of_____, the decision of the committee was as follows:

I had a feeling that this was case you intended. If you read it carefully, of course, you can see that this was not the case that Brother Knorr got involved with.

During his tenure as president, Brother Knorr became involved in every case where a Bethelite had to be dismissed. The rest of the Bethel family would often hear the reasons why at breakfast, no matter how distasteful. But it was a good reminder that the organization should be kept clean, and that it was good to stay alert to the fact that persons at all levels of responsibility within the organization could become involved in immoral, illegal, and even criminal behavior. This indecent exposure case, however, was not about a Bethelite and we read nothing about N.H.Knorr getting involved.

[JOHN BUTLER]

I will agree that it is all very difficult to deal with, for the Org and for the victims. Do i know any answers, no I don't. 

It's just such a shame that the JW Org is in such a mess. 

And like you say Billy it seems the lawyers are just using the victims as a way of earning more cash for themselves. 

Yes the sun is shining here, I'm in a better frame of mind. :) Have a good day all.