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TrueTomHarley

The Reproach of Child Sexual Abuse Falls on the Abuser

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3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for the victims getting less than the lawyer, very doubtful as surely the lawyer can only take a smaller percentage. Any sensible person would want in writing exactly how much they would receive before settling out of court.

I believe it works that the lawyers charge a certain percentage, no less than a third. However, costs of the trial come out of the client’s share, not the lawyer.

Legal costs can be astronomical. “Expert witnesses” of various sorts do not testify for free, nor do any sort of private investigators, nor fact-finders, but often make a very lucrative living out of so testifying. 

Everyone has their hand out, and I have heard of cases (anecdotal evidence only, and unrelated to CSA) in which the client’s net share is very small indeed.

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Seems to me that the W/t has said anyone can report anything they want to any authority and not be in trouble for it, yet now it seems Billy is saying 'mind your own business'. Contradiction me thinks. 

If every one just turned the other way and minded their own business then no murderers would be caught, no Peodphiles would be caught, no criminals would be caught at all.

And i personally think that everyone should watch and question the leaders of their faith.  It's a bit like the Police that keep an eye on people, but who is keeping an eye on the Police ? So it is with the GB right down to the Elders. They keep an eye on the congregations, but who keeps an eye on them ? 

Sorry Billy not with you on this one. And if the Watchtower 'had been on top of certain situations' then certain situations would not be costing the JW org / Watchtower so dearly now. Not just in money but in reputation.  

Most of you would have seen the latest news about the Catholic man of 'high standing' and his past deeds. Yet do you ever consider that a member of the GB may have a similar past ?  So easy to condemn people of a different religion, but it must hurt to even consider it of your own religion. 

 

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44 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

It's the business of the victim and those they wish to include. The Watchtower has not stood in the way of people taking their allegation to secular authority. However, what business do you think you have with an individuals decision to talk to, secular authority.

According to court transcripts, and testimony from Witness victims and their families, this is patently UNTRUE, 

Evidence from Australia, to California, to Deleware, to England supports this.

I am not calling you a liar, BillyTheKid46. because I know you believe this to be true.

People have been disfellowshipped, and THREATENED with disfellowshipping for taking such things to secular authorities, for the past 50 years or so that records have been kept.

I don't believe ANYONE at "face value", but I have seen a lifetime of agenda driven attitude that DOES contribute a vast warm  petri dish environment for this.

...and the cover dish is open.

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4 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

1 Peter 4:15

15-Indeed, none of you should suffer as a murderer or thief or wrongdoer, or even as a meddler.

One easy way to look at it, do you meddle in the affairs of state in a daily bases? Does the Watchtower meddle in your personal affairs in a daily bases?

This is the culpability of witnesses forcing the organization to make changes. Is that a good thing when it’s written in scripture?

One of the great philosophical treatises on "meddling", "minding another person's business", and being a "busybody" is in the John Wayne movie "BIG JAKE", when he wanders onto a group of cattlemen, about to lynch a sheep farmer ... for being a herder of sheep ( who eat grass down to ground level, whereas cattle do not ....), and he tells the cattlemen that it is none of his business if they want to hang the sheep farmer. 

The whole movie, as many of John Wayne's movies were, and are, is a cultural morality tale ... worth watching and learning from.

Best Character Introduction in Cinema History - John Wayne - Big Jake.mp4

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According to court transcripts, and testimony from Witness victims and their families, this is patently UNTRUE, 

This was my feeling too @James Thomas Rook Jr. . 

So which is it. Did the GB / Wt / JW org tell the Elders to tell congregants not to report ?

Or, Did the Elders, of their own initiative, tell congregants not to report ? 

Or, is every victim and victim supporter telling complete lies ? 

If it is proven that this 'order' did not come down 'from the top', then should individual Elders be sued by victims ? 

And in my opinion, if someone has complete knowledge about a CSA incident, though not being the victim, they should still report it to secular authorities.  However I'm talking about knowing all the details and having first hand information. 

Quote "However, what business do you think you have with an individual's decision to talk to secular authority"

What that individual does is their choice. But protecting children should be everyone's responsibility. A Christian attitude i would have thought. 

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15 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Direct me to that video, or post it here. I can understand when people misinterpret something. If it's from the ARC, don't bother.

http://watchtowerdocuments.org/bbc-reports-did-jws-destroy-evidence/

 

I'll look for the video, it's been posted on this forum before.

 https://www.philly.com/philly/news/jehovahs-witnesses-child-sexual-abuse-records-destroy-satan-video-20180709.html

This is the best  i can find at the moment

 

 

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1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Or, Did the Elders, of their own initiative, tell congregants not to report ? 

That is what happened. But NOT every elder was of that opinion. Those who were, based their reasoning on WT 73/11/15 and related topics to do with 1 Cor 6: 1-7. The brothers applied it too broadly and applied it to where it shouldn't have been applied! I have underlined the quotes that the elders applied, and then I highlighted in red the misapplication. 

Questions From Readers    WT 73/11/15
Do Paul’s words at 1 Corinthians 6:1-7 mean that under no circumstances should a Christian take to court a case involving a fellow believer?—U.S.A.
The apostle Paul’s inspired admonition is: “Does anyone of you that has a case against the other dare to go to court before unrighteous men, and not before the holy ones? Or do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you unfit to try very trivial matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? Why, then, not matters of this life? If, then, you do have matters of this life to be tried, is it the men looked down upon in the congregation that you put in as judges? I am speaking to move you to shame. Is it true that there is not one wise man among you that will be able to judge between his brothers, but brother goes to court with brother, and that before unbelievers? Really, then, it means altogether a defeat for you that you are having lawsuits with one another. Why do you not rather let yourselves be wronged? Why do you not rather let yourselves be defrauded?”—1 Cor. 6:1-7.


Here Paul was showing the Corinthian Christians the inconsistency of taking disputes between Christians before secular tribunals. The judges would be men who were not governed by the lofty principles of God’s law and whose consciences were not trained through a study of his Word. As many of the judges at that time were corrupt and accepted bribes, Christians had little reason to believe that their judgment would be just. Paul referred to them as “unrighteous men.” Were Christians to take their disputes before such men, they would be ‘putting in as judges’ men whom the congregation looked down upon as lacking integrity.
Then, too, in taking matters before unbelievers for judgment, they would, in effect, be saying that no one in the congregation had the wisdom to judge “matters of this life” among Christians. This was wholly inconsistent with the fact that spirit-anointed Christians as heavenly associate rulers of the Lord Jesus Christ would be judging, not only men, but also angels. And by dragging fellow believers before pagan judges, they would bring great reproach upon God’s name. As outsiders would be led to believe that Christians were no different from other people in being unable to settle differences, the interests of true worship would be injured. It would have been far better for individual Christians to take personal loss rather than to injure the entire congregation by bringing their disputes to public notice.
In view of the foregoing, would dedicated Christians today go before secular courts if that were to injure the advancement of true worship or misrepresent it in the eyes of outsiders? No. Of course, as all other people, true Christians are still imperfect humans. They make mistakes, and problems arise in connection with business matters and the like. But differences of this nature ought to be settled within the congregation, for God’s Word provides the needed guidelines and there are men in the congregation who are well grounded in the Bible.
However, if a Christian refuses to correct a serious wrong when it is made clear to him by elders serving in judicial capacity in the congregation, such a one would be expelled. This is in line with Jesus’ words: “If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.” (Matt. 18:17) Thus, for example, one who defrauded his Christian brother or who failed to provide materially for his wife and children would find himself outside the congregation if he did not repent.—1 Tim. 5:8.
The injured party could thereafter decide whether legal action should be taken in an attempt to force the guilty one, now disfellowshiped, to rectify matters. Of course, the injured party would want to take into consideration whether it would be worth the time and expense as well as whether the congregation could still come into disrepute by bringing to public attention the actions of one of its former members. If the wronged Christian conscientiously felt that God’s name would not be reproached and legal action was definitely needed, he would not necessarily be acting contrary to the spirit of Paul’s counsel if he were to take to court one who was no longer a part of the Christian congregation. Jehovah God has permitted secular authority to serve as his instrument in bringing lawbreakers to justice, and in this case the one wronged would be availing himself of legal help after exhausting the intracongregational means to have the wrong corrected.—Rom. 13:3, 4.
There may even be times when Christian brothers conscientiously feel that they could go to court with fellow believers. This might be to obtain compensation from an insurance company. In some countries the law may specify that certain matters have to be handled in a court, such as wills that may have to be probated by courts. But this does not create adverse publicity or bring reproach upon the congregation. In handling such legal matters that would not affect the congregation adversely, Christians can be governed by what they consider to be best under the circumstances.
However, if any member of the Christian congregation, without regard for the effect of his action on the good name of the congregation, ignores the counsel from God’s Word on this matter, such one would not be “free from accusation” as a Christian. He would not be one who has “a fine testimony from people on the outside” of the congregation. (Titus 1:6; 1 Tim. 3:7) He surely would not be an example for others to imitate, so this would affect the privileges that he might have in the congregation.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, the bottom line is; some elders thought that the act of  letting authorities know that one of Jehovah's Witnesses is a child molester would bring reproach on the Congregation and Jehovah, and show that Jehovah's Witnesses were no different to anyone else. It's obvious that this was the case, otherwise the latest WT wouldn't need to clarify this by saying: "Should the Christian who reported it feel that he has brought reproach on God’s name? No. The abuser is the one who brings reproach on God’s name. So obviously the Christian who reported was made to feel that way by some misguided elders. And some elders went as far as  threatening disfellowshipping of the reporter for slander (if there was inconclusive proof about the perpetrator i.e. other witnesses). The other problem was that dispute never meant child abuse, because child abuse always was and is a crime. So this is why the latest WT also makes this point: "Does this mean that before an allegation of abuse can be reported to the authorities, two witnesses are required? No. This requirement does not apply to whether elders or others report allegations of a crime." and also: " The absence of a second witness does not mean that the one making the accusation is untruthful. Even if a charge of wrongdoing cannot be established by two witnesses, the elders recognize that a serious sin may have been committed, one that deeply hurt others.

So yes, some elders completely got the wrong end of the stick. This was evident when one of the elders testifying at the ARC embarrassingly said if he heard a report that someone in the congregation committed a murder, he would not report it to the police!

Q.  If a different crime, to take the most extreme, murder.  If you were told that a member of the congregation had killed someone else, would you report that to the police?

A.  We would encourage the person to do that.

Q.  Would you do it yourself?

A.   No.  I would try very hard not to - not that I would try very hard not to, but I would encourage the person continually to do that.  That's a decision they need to make.

 

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