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TrueTomHarley

The Reproach of Child Sexual Abuse Falls on the Abuser

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9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Violence is in the mind of the beholder ..... If I should shoot someone to death for trying to kill me or mine, I have STOPPED violence.

First theirs.

Then my own.

If I had a dollar for every comment that has invoked a 1984 scenario with regard to Jehovah’s Witnesses, I could retire wealthy. Can you think of anyone who has made those comparisons?

As it turns out, the only ones actually fulfilling 1984 are Witness enemies in Russia.

If memory serves, wasn’t Mr. O’Brien, on the surface, a pleasant and refined man, posing as Winston’s friend, before revealing his true character?

Does that remind you of any current Witness opposers here?

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15 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If memory serves, wasn’t Mr. O’Brien, on the surface, a pleasant and refined man, posing as Winston’s friend, before revealing his true character?

Does that remind you of any current Witness opposers here? 

I would not be a good judge of that, even if I wanted to, as I am neither pleasant, nor refined, by choice.

My only claim is to be a Barbarian, interested in Truth and Justice, and fairness.

And I have no love whatsoever for "Big Brother", wherever, and in whatever form,  he may be found.

....   since we are extrapolating with fictional characters, may I remind you of Ferengi Rule of Acquisition No. 48 ... "The bigger the smile, the sharper the knife."

 

 

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22 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:
22 hours ago, Anna said:

Well you obviously didn't get it either! Because ALL of this was talking about disputes, such as business disputes, not crime. Crime is not a dispute; Theft is not a dispute. Rape is not a dispute. Child molestation is not a dispute. Murder is not a dispute.

So John, if you had been an elder you would have applied it wrongly too!

I don't think it gives specifics. And it talks about pagan judges, when God has put them judges in their place to do God's work as scripture tells us. So the GB / Writing dept' are actually going against God's rules. 

John, further to our discussion, here is a 2002 letter to the BOE in the UK. Although it upholds the two witness rule, which still stands today, notice that paragraph 7 states this:

"Our position is that secular authorities deal with crime while elders deal with sin. To
avoid a miscarriage of justice, elders must not interfere with, prevent, or impede any secular
investigation into child abuse. The elders are directed to ensure that secular laws are adhered
to.
(Romans 13:1) To that end, they are instructed to contact the Legal Department at Bethel
whenever they receive information from even one person who alleges that child abuse has occurred.
When a report is received, guidance is given by the Legal Department to ensure that
(1) the alleged victim, and other potential victims, are protected from possible abuse, and
(2) that counsel is given to report crime to the proper authorities and to comply with any additional
legal requirements. The elders know that it is the absolute right of the victim, his or her
family, or anyone else, to report the matter to the authorities if they so choose.
Galatians 6:5"

As a side point; some critics assume that  the reason the legal department is contacted is so that loopholes are found where one does not have to report. That is a very unintelligent thing to assume. For one, there are no loopholes. You are either mandated to report or not report. Regardless of which it is, the objective is always to prevent further abuse, and not propagate it, and if that means reporting to the appropriate authorities, then that is the advice that will be given. Two, since the objective is to prevent further abuse, (for the sake of the victims, and also for the sake of further reproach brought on the organization by the perpetrator, and lawsuits) why would one try to find loopholes to get out of it in the first place? Why would one try to prevent the removal of someone who causes harm in the congregation?

https://faithleaks.org/wiki/documents/d/d7/20020711LTC_bi.pdf

 

 

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Quote @Anna " Why would one try to prevent the removal of someone who causes harm in the congregation? " 

Let me give you an example which unfortunately i cannot give you full details of as it's much too personal. BUT :-

I reported an Elder for doing something very wrong. In fact that Elder used his position of Elder to do that wrong.  He basically acted like a Catholic priest, using his 'authority' and thinking he would not be questioned.  I reported him by writing a letter to the Body of Elders. However it seems, if other elders tell the truth, that the whole body of elders didn't get to see the letter. So I was called to the Kingdom Hall for a meeting with the 'Elders', but when i got there only two Elders were there.  One questioned me whilst  the other sat behind me and just listened and probably took notes. The one questioning me didn't listen to my replies, just butted in and said I would be disfellowshipped for slander if i didn't retract all the accusations I was making. Yes i stated all this before i know. BUT: -

The Elder I was accusing and the Elder questioning me were the only two Elders in the congregation that were 'businessmen'. The Elder i was accusing had shares in a Gold Mine, and the Elder questioning me owned / owns around ten properties, one of which is a farm. Those two Elders were good friends, not just brothers in the Org, they had more in common than that. So the Elder questioning me made sure that he didn't listen to me, so that he didn't have to take any action against the other Elder. Instead he threatened me with being disfellowshipped. 

So please don't ask such a silly question as " Why would one try to prevent the removal of someone who causes harm in the congregation? "  Because the simple answer is that that in many cases it is Elders protecting other Elders. 

You and others talk to me as if i've had no experience in the JW Org. But I've had years of it, and I know of other things which I just cannot mention on here as it would get other people into trouble.

And I would think here in the UK is very tame compared to America. I really dread to think of what goes on in American congregations. The things hidden between Elders in the USA must be much worse than here. 

 

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2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Quote @Anna " Why would one try to prevent the removal of someone who causes harm in the congregation? " 

Let me give you an example which unfortunately i cannot give you full details of as it's much too personal. BUT :-

I reported an Elder for doing something very wrong. In fact that Elder used his position of Elder to do that wrong.  He basically acted like a Catholic priest, using his 'authority' and thinking he would not be questioned.  I reported him by writing a letter to the Body of Elders. However it seems, if other elders tell the truth, that the whole body of elders didn't get to see the letter. So I was called to the Kingdom Hall for a meeting with the 'Elders', but when i got there only two Elders were there.  One questioned me whilst  the other sat behind me and just listened and probably took notes. The one questioning me didn't listen to my replies, just butted in and said I would be disfellowshipped for slander if i didn't retract all the accusations I was making. Yes i stated all this before i know. BUT: -

The Elder I was accusing and the Elder questioning me were the only two Elders in the congregation that were 'businessmen'. The Elder i was accusing had shares in a Gold Mine, and the Elder questioning me owned / owns around ten properties, one of which is a farm. Those two Elders were good friends, not just brothers in the Org, they had more in common than that. So the Elder questioning me made sure that he didn't listen to me, so that he didn't have to take any action against the other Elder. Instead he threatened me with being disfellowshipped. 

So please don't ask such a silly question as " Why would one try to prevent the removal of someone who causes harm in the congregation? "  Because the simple answer is that that in many cases it is Elders protecting other Elders. 

You and others talk to me as if i've had no experience in the JW Org. But I've had years of it, and I know of other things which I just cannot mention on here as it would get other people into trouble.

And I would think here in the UK is very tame compared to America. I really dread to think of what goes on in American congregations. The things hidden between Elders in the USA must be much worse than here. 

 

We have two situations going on here.  One to do with the organization/GB, and the other of a personal nature. I was quoting a letter from the organization, and therefore I was referring to organizational direction when I said "Why would one try to prevent the removal of someone who causes harm in the congregation"? The accusations by opposers are that the Organization, by means of its instructions, protects child molesters. There is ample evidence from letters to the BOE and other instructions that this is not true.

Then we have your experience, an entirely different matter.  The organization/GB has no direct knowledge or ability to control what individual elders do or don’t do. You will agree with that surely?  There can be corruption in the congregation, there is no doubt about that.  But to blame the organization for it, and for the corrupt elders you talk about, is not exactly fair is it? And this is what you have been doing for the most part. Directing all blame at the organization/GB, and when someone defends the organization/GB you get upset.  If it is truly as you say, then why didn’t you rely on Jehovah, who sees what man cannot see, and who will eventually reveal all that is hidden? Or have you lost trust in Jehovah too?  You are not the only one who has experienced something like this you know. Our family and friends have also had to deal with corruption, favouritism and nepotism by elders in the past. Currently, many members of a congregation I know are leaving and going to a different hall because of a “dictator” elder.  Publishers are nobody’s fools, and they will see what is going on and they will leave to go somewhere else. That is an option open to everyone. Will this elder receive the judgement many think he is due? Absolutely, sooner or later he will. Nothing is hidden from Jehovah. But as far as I know, nobody is blaming the organization/GB, and nobody has stopped going to meetings.

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9 hours ago, Anna said:

We have two situations going on here.  One to do with the organization/GB, and the other of a personal nature. I was quoting a letter from the organization, and therefore I was referring to organizational direction when I said "Why would one try to prevent the removal of someone who causes harm in the congregation"? The accusations by opposers are that the Organization, by means of its instructions, protects child molesters. There is ample evidence from letters to the BOE and other instructions that this is not true.

Then we have your experience, an entirely different matter.  The organization/GB has no direct knowledge or ability to control what individual elders do or don’t do. You will agree with that surely?  There can be corruption in the congregation, there is no doubt about that.  But to blame the organization for it, and for the corrupt elders you talk about, is not exactly fair is it? And this is what you have been doing for the most part. Directing all blame at the organization/GB, and when someone defends the organization/GB you get upset.  If it is truly as you say, then why didn’t you rely on Jehovah, who sees what man cannot see, and who will eventually reveal all that is hidden? Or have you lost trust in Jehovah too?  You are not the only one who has experienced something like this you know. Our family and friends have also had to deal with corruption, favouritism and nepotism by elders in the past. Currently, many members of a congregation I know are leaving and going to a different hall because of a “dictator” elder.  Publishers are nobody’s fools, and they will see what is going on and they will leave to go somewhere else. That is an option open to everyone. Will this elder receive the judgement many think he is due? Absolutely, sooner or later he will. Nothing is hidden from Jehovah. But as far as I know, nobody is blaming the organization/GB, and nobody has stopped going to meetings.

@Anna The situation I was telling you about happened over ten years ago and has affected my life ever since. I left the JW Org last year and you know why......  So, I was leaving that matter with God, as i had left many other matters with God. But when the size of the Child Abuse problem became known to me, then I decided that this cannot be God's true organisation. You are saying yourself how bad many Elders are. 

The GB / Org has made it easily possible for Elders to dictate the complete running of a congregation, as you seem to have said above. THe GB / Org has given Elders the right to choose what they will believe and what they will call lies. THe GB / Org has allowed a situation whereby not all Elders in a congregation are made aware of situations, such as the situation I have mentioned. The two witness rule can squash many things before they are even investigated properly. It also seems that the GB /org has given Elders the right to destroy written evidence of cases/situations. 

Is it any wonder why brothers and sisters take each other to the courts of the outside authorities ? You yourself have said many Elders cannot be trusted. Your words "corruption, favouritism and nepotism by elders".  

And with all the above being true, then how can God look with favour on such a wicked organisation ?  Remember Jesus called people wicked. So to call the Org wicked is not sin. 

Finally, i think you, Tom and others should get it into your heads that A PERSON CAN LEAVE THE JW ORG BUT IT DOES NOT MEAN THEY HAVE LEFT GOD OR JESUS CHRIST. So your question of " Or have you lost trust in Jehovah too? " has no meaning to me. 

I rarely call God by that name anymore, as I'm still happy with Yahweh or Almighty God and i pray through Jesus christ as God's word says we should. 

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Well actually I hope whistleblowers carry on posting as much info as they can get hold of. 

And Kid, all of your attempts to make the JW Org look so pure and good are a complete failure in the eyes of many people. 

As for your word 'activist', once again it is only a word. A bit like the word, homophobic.  People just love putting 'tags' on other people. 

I think it has been well established by now, how bad the JW Org really is. How it is full of people, mainly men, that have ulterior motives. 

Well in my opinion, if it really was God's chosen 'religion' then God would chose the Elders and they would be men of good hearts, not men with ulterior motives. 

This brings us to the Governing Body. If as it seems God does not chose the Elders, and God does not supply His Holy Spirit to congregations, then if could well follow that God does not chose the members of the GB. Hence the GB men could have hidden pasts and ulterior motives. 

It's no good printing up what the elders of JW Org should do 

Quote "When elders receive reports of physical or sexual abuse of a child, they should contact the Society's Legal Desk immediately."

Because it seems quite clear that Elders have not done the things they should do. And many Elders have in fact done things they should not do. 

Keep up the propaganda Billy, you seem to love it all. Um, maybe you are an activist :) Well you seem to like the word. 

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34 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

To the contrary. I happen to shoot down every conceivable argument opposers and ex-witnesses have made since the ARC.

The fact that you continue with activism remains meaningless. The info is for people that actually have intelligence.

Just like the scope of your understanding of whistleblowers. Documents that pertain to an individual, specific to a crime or judgment against an individual. BOE letters are far from that ignorance.

Perhaps before you get an answer from law enforcement, try to learn what the word “legal” means. 😉

 

 

Keep up the insults Kid it just proves I'm getting through to you. :) .

You think about 'shooting down every conceivable argument from opposers and ex-witnesses' in your dreams.  

Unfortunately for you there is now enough evidence Earthwide about the wickedness in JW Org, that is cannot be hidden. 

You and others are only proving that you do not serve God, but that you serve the GB and it's wicked Org. 

Unless God, through Jesus Christ, decides to clean out that wicked JW org, then it will have no chance.  I'll wait and see how it goes but I'll remain active in warning others about the Child Abuse/ Pedophile situation in the JW Org. It's the Christian thing to do to protect children from abusers. 

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John Butler's viewpoint may in part be tempered by fantasy, but yours is certainly tempered by evaluating how much punishment a person will incur before deciding to do what is right.

.... from your own words, Billy.

37 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

What, you think people like “Snowden” if he ever sets foot in the US or territories that have a treaty with the US, he won’t be charged with espionage and treason, for his supposed whistleblowing?

You think there haven’t been whistleblowers that actually received prison sentences for believing people like you, that everything is, free game? Learn to understand the laws of your location before you leap into so many assumptions. 😉

To me, that is like a soldier whose job it is to live or die ... but do his job, refusing to go into battle because he might be damaged.

 

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Quote, "I don’t know or want to know what fantasy world you live in, but it’s time to come back to earth. 😊 "

Fantasy huh. You are the one that pretends he is a cowboy ! Kid. And you do seem to get angry, calm down Kid. 

 

 

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