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"STANDING WHERE IT DOES NOT BELONG"

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2 hours ago, Anna said:

They do believe in the anointed. They believe every single person is anointed because they all believe they will go to heaven...

Not all of them.  Many are seeking out the true anointed ones/"Daughter Zion"   Isa 62:1-12

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22 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

In retrospect, How would you define calling yourself one of the anointed?

The anointed who realize there is no unity allowed under a counterfeit priesthood, are "thrown out of the synagogues", because they speak against such blasphemy.   John 16:2  They leave captivity to an operation of error, and join Christ.  I have found anointed who follow only one Master. 

 

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10 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Can someone claim to be one of the anointed, while not meeting the standards of Christian ethics? Can someone endorse a person, seeming to preach as the anointed without fulfilling the conditions set forth as a Christian?

This is the second time you’ve mentioned annointed in addressing me. I hope you don’t think that I claim to be annointed.

You will know the day that I am annointed when you read a Going Out of Business sign in heaven.

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10 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

If anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. For an overseer,as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

This is better, Billy, but it is still not good enough. The Benefit book says that you must specifically make the connection. Presumably you think this verse will serve as counsel for me or you would not have quoted it. How will it help? What part of it applies? Do you think that I have three wives or that I am a drunkard? For your posts to do what you want them to, you must always say what you mean.

And all those passages on conscience. How do they apply? I’ll come to Thessalonians presently, for in this I am pretty sure I know what you mean.

The opening verses, too. I can guess, probably accurately, what you mean. But it would still be a guess. I could be wrong. It would be better if you said it. That’s the best way to give counsel.

 

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37 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This is better, Billy, but it is still not good enough. The Benefit book says that you must specifically make the connection. Presumably you think this verse will serve as counsel for me or you would not have quoted it. How will it help? What part of it applies? Do you think that I have three wives or that I am a drunkard? For your posts to do what you want them to, you must always say what you mean.

Once again TTH. I’m not claiming to give anyone counsel. Therefore, scripture is meant in relative terms for those that chose to defy God’s counsel yet think their loyalty means something.

Doesn’t scripture relate, we cannot serve to masters? Therefore, what is shown, how far to the left people have gone here as to the truth. Something that people like James, and witness will use as an excuse to justify their Christian conduct as though somewhere in time, they decided to use scripture out of convenience, to bolster their claims.

Therefore, it’s NOT about you, but how we perceive others. The approach one should have as to its validity to 1 Thessalonians.

I believe James claims to the truth, and the double edge sword to endorse that claim. Wanting to be on the fence and taking both sides to promote further erred understanding, as prescribed by scripture, not me, you, or the Watchtower. Revelation 3:16 is intellectual dishonesty.

What would one’s personal conviction (conscience) be, to benefit who?

As you reflect and push forward, people should ask, why is such division occurring now? Luke 11:14-28,

I cannot make it any simpler to be understood. This of course happened with the Brotherhood in the past. We just don’t get it?

If I simplify it any further, I  would have to use a crayon and wait until spiritual maturity sets in.😉

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2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

If I simplify it any further, I  would have to use a crayon and wait until spiritual maturity sets in.😉

Now now now. You threw this in as an afterthought and you should have left it out. Why not just say: “I am wise. Everyone else is stupid.”? It comes across as judgmental, Billy. And it serves no purpose. You have been at this for some time now, trying to make people behave on this worldly site as though they are in the Kingdom Hall. How’s that project going, anyway? If you choose to write on this forum, you must not write with only brothers in mind. You must write primarily for the non-Witnesses that might be lurking about. The brothers get their counsel at the Kingdom Hall.

It cannot be done--converting the worldnewsmedia into a congregation. You only shoot yourself in the foot when you try and you leave a not-so-hot witness by saying things like the above. The internet is not the congregation and cannot be made to behave like one. From where did you receive the commission to declare: “Only 40 days more and the worldnewsmedia forum will be destroyed for its great badness”? You didn’t.

It could be argued that you are the most hypocritical one here. I have made no bones about being a bad boy in certain respects. Were I obedient to all aspects of counsel, I would not be here. That is equally true of you, but you don’t acknowledge it. Do you think the GB says: “There are a lot of yo-yos on that ‘out there’ website, but thank God, we have our man Billy to straighten them out”? No. They say: “Oh, man, that TTH is a screwball and now that gunslinger Billy is also carrying on! How come they don’t listen to us and stay on better channels?”

I am encouraged, Billy, and probably you are too, that ‘loyal’ ones seldom appear on this open club. If they come online, they stay in the closed club, which is spiritually more healthy. I like that. Don’t you? It shows an obedience on their part that neither you nor I display.

I have explained to you more than once my reasons for disregarding counsel on internet association. You don’t accept it, but they are still my reasons. I am a brother neither servant nor elder, though I have served in those capacities previously. I am universally liked in my circuit because I am a peacemaker and I am not wound up too tight, though there are probably a few who think I am a windbag. What am I going to tell them—that I’m not? Recently two elders approached me to say they would like to use me more in the congregation, but was there anything to the rumor that I associate with apostates? I told them that there was not, however what I did came close enough that it might easily be taken that way, and if we apply the direction given young people to all adults, then it clearly was that way, so for that sake we all decided it better to leave things just as they are.

I told them why I did what I did—that I learned a reporter who wrote several bad articles about us used a certain apostate Internet forum as his sole source. ‘If that’s the case, maybe others do as well. Maybe I can go there and plant some things that are more balanced,’ I told myself. I have put several long posts there, but afterwards I do not hang out. Each post produces a flurry of protests and I briefly answer a few, but after that I disappear. It is not a course that I recommend for others, and brothers usually get their heads handed to them on a platter when try, being severely outgunned and unprepared for the sheer onslaught that they trigger. It is being disobedient to counsel for me to do it, and I do not try to spin it otherwise. I would not presume to do it but for senior years, a long honed ability to write—if you do anything long enough, you tend to develop a knack for it—and enough humbling circumstances in life that I am not likely to become overly full of myself, much less go the way of these characters.

The rules are different here, Billy. It is not the congregation. If you knocked on a householder’s door who was a known ne’er do well and when he answered you saw some brothers inside, you might say to them: “Um, guys, do you really think that you should be here?” But if they did not respond, what would you do? Would you feel it your place to barge into that householder’s home and make those brothers behave as they ought? It is kind of what you are doing here.

We must respect our hostess here and abide by her rules--the Librarian, that old hen.

Given that I have chosen to be online, I commit no wrong in whatever association I have with @JW Insider. He has committed an extraordinary indiscretion, in my opinion, and I have done my duty as a brother in exhorting, even rebuking him, in the way that is most effective for me—by a skit painting him as the friendly but incredibly naïve poker player who fans out his full house for all to see. That’s about all I can do but it is what a brother should do. It will all be lost on him, most likely, because he sings the "theocracy dies in darkness" mantra more fervently than Jeff Bezos. Do you think that he ought to be disfellowshipped? If so, note that he is not, or at least if he is we don’t know about it, and can therefore with good conscience treat him as in good standing. And why is that the case--that he is not or that we don't know? Because this is the internet, and the internet cannot be made to behave as the congregation. Persons ought not be here if they cannot get their heads around that.

 

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You know, @BillyTheKid46, having written what I just did, there's a part of me that wants to take it all back. it is very hard to address a dozen different points of view expressed here at once and I think I overestimate my ability to rise to the occasion.

It may be that everything is exactly as you say. At any rate, I'll keep mulling over the verses you have spotlighted.

 

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8 hours ago, Anna said:

Actually, the elder I mentioned previously has had a beard for many, many years, while an elder, well before 2015.

Ohh, than i can see this as an rare exception of the global, general rule on issue. :)) 

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3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Now now now. You threw this in as an afterthought and you should have left it out. Why not just say: “I am wise. Everyone else is stupid.”? It comes across as judgmental, Billy. And it serves no purpose. You have been at this for some time now, trying to make people behave on this worldly site as though they are in the Kingdom Hall. How’s that project going, anyway? If you choose to write on this forum, you must not write with only brothers in mind. You must write primarily for the non-Witnesses that might be lurking about. The brothers get their counsel at the Kingdom Hall.

It cannot be done--converting the worldnewsmedia into a congregation. You only shoot yourself in the foot when you try and you leave a not-so-hot witness by saying things like the above. The internet is not the congregation and cannot be made to behave like one. From where did you receive the commission to declare: “Only 40 days more and the worldnewsmedia forum will be destroyed for its great badness”? You didn’t.

It could be argued that you are the most hypocritical one here. I have made no bones about being a bad boy in certain respects. Were I obedient to all aspects of counsel, I would not be here. That is equally true of you, but you don’t acknowledge it. Do you think the GB says: “There are a lot of yo-yos on that ‘out there’ website, but thank God, we have our man Billy to straighten them out”? No. They say: “Oh, man, that TTH is a screwball and now that gunslinger Billy is also carrying on! How come they don’t listen to us and stay on better channels?”

I am encouraged, Billy, and probably you are too, that ‘loyal’ ones seldom appear on this open club. If they come online, they stay in the closed club, which is spiritually more healthy. I like that. Don’t you? It shows an obedience on their part that neither you nor I display.

I have explained to you more than once my reasons for disregarding counsel on internet association. You don’t accept it, but they are still my reasons. I am a brother neither servant nor elder, though I have served in those capacities previously. I am universally liked in my circuit because I am a peacemaker and I am not wound up too tight, though there are probably a few who think I am a windbag. What am I going to tell them—that I’m not? Recently two elders approached me to say they would like to use me more in the congregation, but was there anything to the rumor that I associate with apostates? I told them that there was not, however what I did came close enough that it might easily be taken that way, and if we apply the direction given young people to all adults, then it clearly was that way, so for that sake we all decided it better to leave things just as they are.

I told them why I did what I did—that I learned a reporter who wrote several bad articles about us used a certain apostate Internet forum as his sole source. ‘If that’s the case, maybe others do as well. Maybe I can go there and plant some things that are more balanced,’ I told myself. I have put several long posts there, but afterwards I do not hang out. Each post produces a flurry of protests and I briefly answer a few, but after that I disappear. It is not a course that I recommend for others, and brothers usually get their heads handed to them on a platter when try, being severely outgunned and unprepared for the sheer onslaught that they trigger. It is being disobedient to counsel for me to do it, and I do not try to spin it otherwise. I would not presume to do it but for senior years, a long honed ability to write—if you do anything long enough, you tend to develop a knack for it—and enough humbling circumstances in life that I am not likely to become overly full of myself, much less go the way of these characters.

The rules are different here, Billy. It is not the congregation. If you knocked on a householder’s door who was a known ne’er do well and when he answered you saw some brothers inside, you might say to them: “Um, guys, do you really think that you should be here?” But if they did not respond, what would you do? Would you feel it your place to barge into that householder’s home and make those brothers behave as they ought? It is kind of what you are doing here.

We must respect our hostess here and abide by her rules--the Librarian, that old hen.

Given that I have chosen to be online, I commit no wrong in whatever association I have with @JW Insider. He has committed an extraordinary indiscretion, in my opinion, and I have done my duty as a brother in exhorting, even rebuking him, in the way that is most effective for me—by a skit painting him as the friendly but incredibly naïve poker player who fans out his full house for all to see. That’s about all I can do but it is what a brother should do. It will all be lost on him, most likely, because he sings the "theocracy dies in darkness" mantra more fervently than Jeff Bezos. Do you think that he ought to be disfellowshipped? If so, note that he is not, or at least if he is we don’t know about it, and can therefore with good conscience treat him as in good standing. And why is that the case--that he is not or that we don't know? Because this is the internet, and the internet cannot be made to behave as the congregation. Persons ought not be here if they cannot get their heads around that.

 

From @TrueTomHarley A personal letter to Billy the Kid. So why not in a personal folder 

And I still find it funny how you compare yourself to GB / JW rules when you say you've been a 'bad boy'.  

You go on about what the GB might have said and what the Elders said and how you 'justified yourself to men' (Elders), but no mention of Almighty God or Jesus Christ at all. 

You keep saying this is not a congregation on here. Every sentence is about the JW Org.

Tom please start thinking about GOD and JESUS CHRIST, not about pleasing men such as the GB and Elders. 

One good thing about being outside of the Org is that it gives a person a closer relationship with God through Christ.  And you have just proved that through your own writings. 

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4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Now now now. You threw this in as an afterthought and you should have left it out. Why not just say: “I am wise. Everyone else is stupid.”? It comes across as judgmental, Billy. And it serves no purpose. You have been at this for some time now, trying to make people behave on this worldly site as though they are in the Kingdom Hall. How’s that project going, anyway? If you choose to write on this forum, you must not write with only brothers in mind. You must write primarily for the non-Witnesses that might be lurking about. The brothers get their counsel at the Kingdom Hall.

There you go TTH, now I recognize you. Simply put, I need to bow down to apostasy in order not to be deleted (offend). Therefore, if I can’t have an afterthought and it shouldn’t be used, when you, James, JWinsider do the same, what would be the difference?

Sorry, can’t do it for the sake of maintaining harmony and unity here. Anyone coming to this forum should understand we are not dealing with witnesses, but opposers. I never saw it any other way.

It is a mistake in your part to assume, I’m attempting to encourage a sound doctrine of obeying God as though it was a congregation full of God’s Holy Spirit, even though that is what “witness” does at every turn.

Where’s your hot compassionate rhetoric on that.

What is also a mistaken ideology, we can use such forums without scriptural consequences, because of its autonomy. However, that’s between the parties involved and God.

My point is, don’t complain about showing people the misrepresentation of scripture without the threat of being deleted. Either directly, indirectly, in a subtle way or with, subliminal messages.

Can we believe whatever association here, is not flawed and is not outside the norm of Christian ethics?

Isaiah 29:15

15Woe to those who dig deep to hide their plans from the LORD. In darkness they do their works and say, “Who sees us, and who will know?”

 

How’s that for saying what I mean. Therefore, let’s get this post back to its original post, JW.org Flag and why it presents a problem for opposers? What is the double standard they use to justify their argument and why they believe it is unscriptural?

Is it the flag itself or is it their idea of a symbol of veneration that Witnesses across the world use to pledge allegiance to the Watchtower?

banner.jpg

The above interpretation of JN to mean banner also has variations on that meaning. The Septuagint “the Lord My Refuge” Vulgate “Jehovah Is My Exaltation” Therefore, should witnesses consider it a flag, or a banner. Can it be seen as a symbol for advertisement or can it be seen as the staff of Moses held up high as a symbol of hope.

WTT Exodus 17:15  וַיִּ֥בֶן מֹשֶׁ֖ה מִזְבֵּ֑חַ וַיִּקְרָ֥א שְׁמ֖וֹ יְהוָ֥ה׀ נִסִּֽי׃

 (Exod. 17:15 WTT)

Holladay, Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the OT (HOL)

Hol5567  

נֵס: sf. נִסִּי: — 1. signal pole )w. rags tied on( Nu 218, n¹´¹° n¢s Je 46; h¹yâ l®n¢s become a warning Nu 2610; — 2. banner, standard: Is 319, = flag 183; yhwh nissî = name of an altar Ex 1715. (pg 239)

 

Just don't confuse the signal pole as a torture stake. we have the brightest minds at work here, let's act the part. 😉

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To quote a Kid "we have the brightest minds at work here, let's act the part".

But what you have is human wisdom, not the Wisdom from God. 

As for harmony and unity, I think you are in the wrong house. That must be in the PRIVATE house. :) . A place I will never be allowed to go. Still they have to hide somewhere I suppose. 

Quote the Kid "Can we believe whatever association here, is not flawed and is not outside the norm of Christian ethics? "

Explain the Christian ethics of your GB et al, regarding Child Abuse, shuning, and all the other issues, including misuse of scriptures such as 'the Superior Authorities',  'Faithful and Discreet slave' etc. 

The JW Org is not fit for purpose yet you condemn everyone else, that is so funny :) .

You should be a politician Kid and you TTH. Politicians find fault with the opposition instead of looking inside their own 'crowd'. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

There you go TTH, now I recognize you. Simply put, I need to bow down to apostasy in order not to be deleted (offend).

No

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Therefore, if I can’t have an afterthought and it shouldn’t be used, when you, James, JWinsider do the same, what would be the difference?

Did you notice that just after my post I put in another saying I was half-inclined to take it all back? It was for this consideration that I did it. Everyone else says what they have to say without triggering “hot compassionate rhetoric.” (well...actually, that’s not true) Why should it be different for you?

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Sorry, can’t do it for the sake of maintaining harmony and unity here.

There is no harmony and unity here.

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Anyone coming to this forum should understand we are not dealing with witnesses, but opposers. I never saw it any other way.

Okay. I think most everyone else understands that, too. I never misunderstood that point, either.

 

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

It is a mistake in your part to assume, 

Throw it on the stack. What’s one more?

 

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

What is also a mistaken ideology, we can use such forums without scriptural consequences, because of its autonomy.

I am among the most tracable people here, doing nothing in secret. Did I not just say that I spoke to congregation elders, explaining what I was doing and why? What about you? Does anyone in the actual world know that you are BillyTheKid?

 

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

My point is, don’t complain about showing people the misrepresentation of scripture without the threat of being deleted. 

There’s no way on earth that you are going to be deleted unless you break a few lamps in The Librarian’s home. She’s a sensitive old biddy and she treasures her few material things.

 

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

My point is, don’t complain about showing people the misrepresentation of scripture...either directly, indirectly, in a subtle way or with, subliminal messages.

Okay. Everyone else carries on here. Why shouldn’t you be able to as well?

But here is something for you to consider. We are encouraged to freely associate with our brothers (don’t misunderstand - there are few here that I regard as ‘our brothers’ but there are some) to build them up, exhort, encourage, and so forth. Until we hear that they are disfellowshipped, we regard them as brothers. Are we ever going to hear it here should it happen? No. Why? Because the Internet is not the congregation and cannot be made to behave like one. No wonder the GB prefers that you and I stay off it.

Now, in your actual congregation, are there brothers not disfellowshipped that you lambaste? I hope that is not the case. The only exception would be if someone had been marked (what verse is that, anyhow?) and you thought you knew who that one was. In that case, you would. But would you go around the congregation encouraging others to follow your course? You know how improper that would be.

My point is that online you don’t know who’s who. You never will. You don’t even know that I am a brother. I said I was, but I might be lying. The Internet is the land of the liars and that must be understood. But when you come online and harshly rip into ‘brothers’ with scripture, you are overstepping your bounds. That is the place of the elders. When brothers are yet in good standing and other brothers rip into them online tor doing this or that wrong—well, they would never do it offline. And it contributes to the wrong impression that Jehovah’s Witnesses are the most judgmental people on earth. Elders are the ones who should issue such discipline. You should not presume to step into their role, as though they were falling down on the job and you will take their place. And why don’t they fulfill their role here? Because the Internet is not the congregation and cannot be made to behave like one. No wonder the GB prefers that you and I stay off it.

It is not Witnesses that I am writing for, in the main. Loyal brothers are not going to frequent here. It is for non-Witnesses that I am writing. Whenever I address anyone, I am always primarily addressing the unknown audience that lies behind. And that, let me be honest (as usual), is a challenge that I very much enjoy. I don’t mean determined opposers. I mean unalliigned people. There may not be any. There may be many. You never know. They may come along afterwards.

I like witnessing to them, not to show that this or that doctrine that they may believe in is wrong, but to illustrate the mechanics and underlying reasonableness of the Christian congregation to people who may have been conditioned to think that we are anything but.

Call it PR, if you like. In general we are terrible at PR. If we are not explaining to non-Witnesses something about Christmas being pagan or telling them about the cute animals in paradise, we haven’t a clue how to speak with them, and there are a fair number of friends who will think that we shouldn’t. I like doing PR for the congregation to non-Witnesses on topics that aren’t entry level. I do it in the books I have written. I spend far far too much time here, except that it does in some ways not always tangible help with that undertaking.

“How’s that for saying what I mean?” you said. Not bad. How’s mine? We owe each other honesty.

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21 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Christ words are not empty. We are the ones that make it so. Therefore, how can an ambassador of good will, that doesn’t walk in harmony with Christ, 1 Peter 2:21 be able to call him/her a part of spiritual Israel. 1 John 2:3-6 it goes against the teaching of a humble servant that we are all but have forgotten about Jesus that above all, held his faith with the utmost obedience.

Oh, but I do walk in harmony with Christ.  This does not require walking in harmony with the Watchtower. 

SHOULD THERE BE UNITY AT ALL COST? 

21 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

BEING UNITED just to have peace involves a THOUSAND compromises ... and is a slippery slope that slides to error,  intellectually dishonesty, self delusion, theocratic hallucinations, the abandonment of JUSTICE, and dishonors both ourselves ... which intellectual integrity is where someone always has to start ... AND the Brotherhood ... and most importantly, Jehovah God.

A “worldly preacher” from decades ago said,

“If good men were all for union and bad men for division, or vice versa, that would simplify things for us. Or if it could be shown that God always unites and the devil always divides it would be easy to find our way around in this confused and confusing world. But that is not how things are. Light and darkness are incompatible; to try to have both in the same place at once is to try the impossible and end by having neither one nor the other, but dimness rather, and obscurity.

Truth is slain to provide a feast to celebrate the marriage of heaven and hell, and all to support a concept of unity which has no basis in the Word of God. When confused sheep start over a cliff the individual sheep can save himself only by separating from the flock. Perfect unity at such a time can only mean total destruction for all. Power lies in the union of things similar and the division of things dissimilar. Maybe what we need today is not more union but some wise and courageous division.”

Watchtower’s historic false teachings are darkness, never were they light. Only a fool would say they were from Jesus Christ, who only imparts truth.  John 14:6  Only a fool would say they trust a leadership that runs the same institution that calls darkness “Beliefs Clarified”. 

Jesus Christ:

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36     a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[

    Hello guest!
]

37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.  Matt 10:34-39

This divisive sword between light and darkness was not put back in its sheath when Jesus was resurrected.

The Lord says to my lord:

“Sit at my right hand
    until I make your enemies
    a footstool for your feet.”

The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying,
    “Rule in the midst of your enemies!”  Ps 110:1,2

 

Those who desire to follow the light of Christ; and who reject all darkness, all teachings that have proved to be rotten, are the ones who may have lost their loved ones, for the sake of Christ, for the sake of obtaining light.   John 8:12; Matt 7:15:20; John 15:16; Rev 13:15    As long as they remain with Christ, they will never walk in darkness.  WT’s leaders lead sheep on vast, “slippery” trails of darkness.  It has been proven to be so. 

“For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.”  Luke 8:17

“You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22 Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy?

 Are we stronger than he?” 1 Cor 10:21,22

 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You should be a politician Kid and you TTH. 

Vote the Kid-TTH ticket for 2020!

Hey, you never know. Pundits don’t like Trump and regard most of the Democrat challengers as lightweights. Who can say how it might turn out?

”I promise, if I am elected, to solemnly serve to the best of my ability and to search out the lowlifes of the worldnewsmedia and throw them all into jail.”

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

No

Did you notice that just after my post I put in another saying I was half-inclined to take it all back? It was for this consideration that I did it. Everyone else says what they have to say without triggering “hot compassionate rhetoric.” (well...actually, that’s not true) Why should it be different for you?

There is no harmony and unity here.

Okay. I think most everyone else understands that, too. I never misunderstood that point, either.

 

Throw it on the stack. What’s one more?

 

I am among the most tracable people here, doing nothing in secret. Did I not just say that I spoke to congregation elders, explaining what I was doing and why? What about you? Does anyone in the actual world know that you are BillyTheKid?

 

There’s no way on earth that you are going to be deleted unless you break a few lamps in The Librarian’s home. She’s a sensitive old biddy and she treasures her few material things.

 

Okay. Everyone else carries on here. Why shouldn’t you be able to as well?

But here is something for you to consider. We are encouraged to freely associate with our brothers (don’t misunderstand - there are few here that I regard as ‘our brothers’ but there are some) to build them up, exhort, encourage, and so forth. Until we hear that they are disfellowshipped, we regard them as brothers. Are we ever going to hear it here should it happen? No. Why? Because the Internet is not the congregation and cannot be made to behave like one. No wonder the GB prefers that you and I stay off it.

Now, in your actual congregation, are there brothers not disfellowshipped that you lambaste? I hope that is not the case. The only exception would be if someone had been marked (what verse is that, anyhow?) and you thought you knew who that one was. In that case, you would. But would you go around the congregation encouraging others to follow your course? You know how improper that would be.

My point is that online you don’t know who’s who. You never will. You don’t even know that I am a brother. I said I was, but I might be lying. The Internet is the land of the liars and that must be understood. But when you come online and harshly rip into ‘brothers’ with scripture, you are overstepping your bounds. That is the place of the elders. When brothers are yet in good standing and other brothers rip into them online tor doing this or that wrong—well, they would never do it offline. And it contributes to the wrong impression that Jehovah’s Witnesses are the most judgmental people on earth. Elders are the ones who should issue such discipline. You should not presume to step into their role, as though they were falling down on the job and you will take their place. And why don’t they fulfill their role here? Because the Internet is not the congregation and cannot be made to behave like one. No wonder the GB prefers that you and I stay off it.

It is not Witnesses that I am writing for, in the main. Loyal brothers are not going to frequent here. It is for non-Witnesses that I am writing. Whenever I address anyone, I am always primarily addressing the unknown audience that lies behind. And that, let me be honest (as usual), is a challenge that I very much enjoy. I don’t mean determined opposers. I mean unalliigned people. There may not be any. There may be many. You never know. They may come along afterwards.

I like witnessing to them, not to show that this or that doctrine that they may believe in is wrong, but to illustrate the mechanics and underlying reasonableness of the Christian congregation to people who may have been conditioned to think that we are anything but.

Call it PR, if you like. In general we are terrible at PR. If we are not explaining to non-Witnesses something about Christmas being pagan or telling them about the cute animals in paradise, we haven’t a clue how to speak with them, and there are a fair number of friends who will think that we shouldn’t. I like doing PR for the congregation to non-Witnesses on topics that aren’t entry level. I do it in the books I have written. I spend far far too much time here, except that it does in some ways not always tangible help with that undertaking.

“How’s that for saying what I mean?” you said. Not bad. How’s mine? We owe each other honesty.

@TrueTomHarley PR ? So you are here to put the JW side over to non Witnesses and me and a couple of others are here to tell them the truth.

A good balance i think Tom. Only I'm not using people, to write a book or earn money :) . i have the genuine feeling and safety of people as my reason. 

Just because i don't know what is perfectly correct does not mean I don't know what is totally wrong.  

 

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2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So you are here to put the JW side over to non Witnesses and me

No. Not to you at present.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Just because i don't know what is perfectly correct does not mean I don't know what is totally wrong.  

Unfortunately, it does. You’ve lost all sense of balance. Everything that is not glistening white is jet black to you. That might be okay if life was that way. But it’s not.

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

No. Not to you at present.

Unfortunately, it does. You’ve lost all sense of balance.

Lost all sense of balance have I ? 

Well if i wanted to drive to Scotland I wouldn't know the exact route, but I'd know not to go to Cornwall as it's in the complete opposite direction.

Similarly the more I'm finding out about the JW Org and the GB, the more I know it is the wrong direction. The only difference is the GB and it's Org could change if God chose to change it. But right now my balance and conscience tell me to stay away from it.

 

 

 

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"The best sign of truth is simplicity and clarity, the lie is always intricate, tawdry and eloquent." - Tolstoy

"The lie does not kill with the mallet, but it runs through blood vessels like poison, slowly and cautiously, so it does not even notice how it works" - Ivan Cankar

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      “ The doctrine that "other sheep" are NOT of the heavenly calling, to me, is error with an evil purpose....
      to take away the distinction between what God has cleansed (circumcision of the chosen Priest's heart by spirit) and the common spiritual Gentile.  This deceptive doctrine is the basis for allowing the disgusting thing to enter the holy place (the MAN OF LAWLESSNESS to raise himself up above the sons of God). ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. )" 
      A spiritual, rebellious “Edom” exists where the Man of Lawless (of “destruction, ruin”) reigns – The Watchtower organization/“Beast”. Rev 13:1  Its ruling “kings”/false prophets have traded their inheritance under the New Covenant with Christ, for fleshly power, glory and riches in this world; riches that do not last.  Luke 4:7;12:32-34   Their new “birthright” or blessing is given by the one who offers such gifts, Satan the Devil.  Isa 28:15; Rev 17:5; 13:11 
       “Make sure that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no root of bitterness springs up, causing trouble and defiling many.16 And make sure that there isn’t any sexually immoral or irreverent person like Esau, who sold his birthright in exchange for a single meal. 17 For you know that later, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, even though he sought it with tears, because he didn’t find any opportunity for repentance.”  Heb 12:15-17
      The governing body is not only a “root of bitterness”, (Rev 8:11) but are spiritual Harlots defiling all who buy into the belief that the idol/temple, “Jehovah’s organization” is the source of salvation.   Each anointed one under its wing are the “foolish virgins” captivated and oppressed by the Harlot’s priesthood, the elder body/Beast.  As long as they are accepting of the Harlot’s wares, they too fall under the “mother” covenant of death, Babylon the Great.  Matt 25:8-13; Rev 13:7,17           Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      The Man of Lawlessness is this priesthood, and the false “Jews” and “briers” ruling over the true Temple dwelling of God, within the hearts of the anointed ones.  2 Thess 2:3,4; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Rev 9:1-6;11:1-3  The Body of Elders presently assists “Babylon’s” kings/false prophets in captivating spiritual “Israel” with, “blasphemies against God: TO BLASPHEME HIS NAME AND HIS DWELLING —those who dwell in heaven.”  Rev 13:6   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      This priesthood/elder body has been given the authority to judge and “kill” God’s spiritual “Israel”. (Gen 27:41)  We have a repeat of Ps 137:7.  The anointed living “stones” of God’s Temple are effectively facing a threatening destruction under the  Man of Lawlessness. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      1 Cor 3:16,17: “Don’t you yourselves know that you are God’s temple and that the Spirit of God lives in you?  IF ANYONE DESTROYS GOD’S TEMPLE, GOD WILL DESTROY HIM; for God’s temple is holy, and that is what you are.”
       In the same nature as the Edomite god, Quas, the Watchtower god uses deceitful, powerful displays as if originating from the true God, YHWH. 
      From Pearl’s article, “FIRE FROM HEAVEN”:
      "When we read that the False Prophet has the ability to "cause fire to come down from heaven" (Rev.13:11,13), do you think GOD ("heaven") is giving that false prophet power to judge others by truth and in righteousness?;
      OR, do you think that Satan is empowering the "TWO-horned" false prophet (counterfeit "two witnesses") with the ability to render a  false CONDEMNATION OF THE RIGHTEOUS?  (Rev.11:7-10; 13:15; 6:9,10,11)    Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      This "fire" comes "from heaven", because the point at which the false prophet receives this power; Satan has not yet been completely removed, and is still "waging war" with the "woman's" seed (Rev.12:3,4,8,13,17). He is not cast down (loses his heavenly authority) until this counterfeit fire is fully used against those righteous ones "killed" by it (Rev.11:7; 6:9,11; John 16:2; Mark 8:35), by which faithful deaths and testimony, he is cast down (Rev.12:10,11; 13:13,15,4)."  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.    
      So as is clear, yes, "fire from heaven" can be falsified, when it condemns the righteous to "death" (Eze.13:19; Jer.23:17,14; Rev.11:8). This is what the false prophet is enabled to do (Rev.9:1; 13:13,15; 6:9,10,11; 11:7-10) by means of Satan's ability (Job 1:12,16; Rev.13:2; 11:7; 9:11,1) to falsely condemn the righteous, causing counterfeit, symbolic "fire from heaven".     Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      JWs, the Watchtower is a hateful act of rebellion against “Israel”.  All within, have fallen for this great end time deception of Satan’s. 2 Thess 2:9-12 Soon, the Man of Lawlessness will also turn on “Israel’s” Harlot/false prophet, stripping her bare and exposing her sins that even they can’t tolerate.   A combined alliance of sell-out anointed “kings” and non-anointed elders will receive authority over all of unrepentant “Israel” and those with them, “for one hour.” Rev.17:7,12,13,16,17; Gen.25:30-33  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
       FLEE now! Join those of “Jacob” who have left “Babylon’s” confusion; who are repentant and eager to serve the one true God and His Son, Jesus Christ. Deut 28:20; Jer 51:6; Zech 8:22,23; Matt 24:16; Rev 18:4-8    Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      “‘This is what the Lord God says: Because Edom acted vengefully against the house of Judah and incurred grievous guilt by taking revenge on them, 13 therefore this is what the Lord God says: I will stretch out my hand against Edom and cut off both man and animal from it. I will make it a wasteland; they will fall by the sword from Teman to Dedan. 14 I will take my vengeance on Edom through my people Israel, and they will deal with Edom according to my anger and wrath. So they will know my vengeance. This is the declaration of the Lord God.”  Ezek 25:12-14
      “For the day of the Lord is near,
      against all the nations.
      As you have done, it will be done to you;
      what you deserve will return on your own head.
      16 As you have drunk on my holy mountain,
      so all the nations will drink continually.
      They will drink and gulp down
      and be as though they had never been.
      17 But there will be a deliverance on Mount Zion,
      and it will be holy;
      the house of Jacob will dispossess
      those who dispossessed them.
      18 Then the house of Jacob will be a blazing FIRE,
      and the house of Joseph, a burning flame,
      but the house of Esau will be stubble;
      Jacob will set them on fire and consume Edom.
      Therefore no survivor will remain
      of the house of Esau,
      for the Lord has spoken.”  Obadiah 1:15-18
      “Is not my WORD like FIRE”—this is the Lord’s declaration—“and like a hammer that pulverizes rock?”  Jer 23:29
      JWs, if you choose to listen to the linked chapter in Lamentation below, which is Jeremiah’s mournful dirge over Judah’s captivity, consider how you are admonished to respect the authority of, obey, and praise the elder body. At the same time, you are taught to scrutinize the validity of the anointed ones.  Remember that the anointed Temple “stones”/ priests and “kings of the earth” are counseled by your governing body, and enforced by your elders, not to seek each other out, or gather together to study the Bible; as it THREATENS the unity and worship to be given to your god, the organization.  Prov 6:16-19; Ezek 44:23  This is “trampling”, oppression and captivity. Rev.12:4; 9:10,19; 11:2; 13:7,10; Matt 26:52; (Gen 27:40)  Your “Edom” is a spiritual desert as a result; fulfilling the promised blessing given to Esau by Isaac.  Jer 14:15; Lam 5:10; Amos 8:11;Rev 18:8    Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      The inherited promise bestowed on a faithful “Israel”, cleansed of all defilement, is fulfilled when the Kingdom of God arrives. Rev 6:9-11; Isa 61:7  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      I know your works. Look, I have placed before you an open door that no one can close because you have but little power; yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 Note this: I will make those from the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews and are not, but are lying—I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and they will know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept my command to endure, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is going to come on the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one takes your crown. Rev 3:8-11
      Lamentations 1 - Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      Pearl Doxsey - 4womaninthewilderness
      "Who Inherit the Earth"?
      "Discerning the Ten Virgins/Called, Chosen and Faithful"
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
    • By Israeli Bar Avaddhon
      We will recognize the man of lawlessness?   "He stands in opposition and exalts himself above all that is called" god "or object of reverence, so that he sits in the temple of God, showing publicly that you are a god" - 2 Thessalonians 2: 4   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. We are searching the scriptures carefully?   The title of the article might seem strange. We all know, in fact, that the man of lawlessness is the apostate Christendom, that is, all those who have taught lies about the nature and teachings of Jesus Christ. Obviously this also includes those, individuals or groups, who do not call themselves religious but to some extent spread lies about the Word of God. These apostate religious organizations became extremely evident by the death of the last apostle onwards. It even seems amazing the short amount of time that was necessary to this extent to adulterate every single teaching of the Lord and remain, in the eyes of the individual observers, "the people of God." At the end of the second century AD, there was probably a single truly Christian teaching. Every Christian, today, taking for granted that it is that person who will study the Bible diligently, should not make it hard to distinguish the man of lawlessness, the subject also called "anti-Christ" by the Apostle John - 1 John 2 : 18 So why such a title? What we risk not recognizing in the end time? We will address this topic starting from afar because the assumptions are not born from nothing; they are due, very often, partial or incorrect interpretation of some scriptures. Scriptural steps that, at least in appearance, could got to do little or nothing to do with the subject matter.   Who makes up the "temple of God"? "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God , and that the spirit of God dwells in you?" - 1 Corinthians 3:16 "What! Do you not know that the body of you is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, which ye have of God? And you do not belong to yourselves, for you were bought with a price. By all means, glorify God in your body "- 1 Corinthians 6:19, 20 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? Because we are the temple of the living God ; as God said, "I will dwell among them and walk among [them], and I will be their God, and they shall be my people" - 2 Corinthians 6:16 Reading these scriptures it is evident that the "temple of God" to which we refer is the congregation of anointed Christians with the Spirit. So, if we connect the base writing this article with these other scriptures, it is evident that "the man of lawlessness" would be taken over to true worship. Indeed, it would be just risen from true worship - Compare Acts 30:29, 30 If we just consider these writings, the man of lawlessness was born in the first century (in fact, the apostolo Paolo said that he was already at work) has operated in the past two millennia, causing confusion and pain to sincere seekers of truth and now just waiting for destruction by the UN (that, according to the current understanding - see footnote) *. We should not expect anything, no twist, and it's hard to imagine that some Christians may still be misled by this entity. How could, in fact, a careful student of the Word of God, suddenly believing that God is a Trinity, that Mary is the Mother "of God," that He created the fiery hell or limbo or any other "amenities" that Christianity teaches? In the past it was very difficult to get a Bible that was almost certain to rely on those who claimed to teach. If a Minister of Christianity had taught any of the above mentioned doctrines, how could you deny whether he had a Bible in hand? So we should take note that this man of lawlessness has effectively acted in the past ... but now has had its day. Anyone with a Bible in the house, while not coming to realize everything, will certainly understand that many doctrines taught by the church are simply false. It's really like this? If the understanding about the man of lawlessness was only partial, we risk not to be complacent dangerously?   " ... as to mislead, if possible, even the elect" - Matthew 24:24 We reflect on the words of the Lord. In his description relative to the last days He mentioned false Christs and false prophets, and clearly pointed to the possibility of being misled. But, as we said before, how can we be led astray today? It is not hard to imagine how this could happen in the Middle Ages or in any other age. In the recent past there have been many people who have claimed to be the Messiah or some other prophet with some "new message" to bring humanity - compares Galatians 1: 8 Many older or newer religions trace their beliefs in one of these characters and messages and then we can say that the man of lawlessness is continuing to act ... but what about true Christians? How many of us would listen to a person, no matter how charismatic, if it said to be the Christ or have a new message for humanity? It is very unlikely to happen something like that and not because we are better than others, but simply because the truth of God's Word protects us - Ecclesiastes 7:12 How, today, the man of lawlessness, at least potentially mislead even the elect? For this to happen, we must at least accept the possibility that behind these words there is something more and perhaps our current understanding on the man of lawlessness is not complete . There are other scriptures that can shed light on this subject?   Let us scrutinize the Scriptures carefully We start from a logical assumption. We said that the man of lawlessness is the clergy of Christendom and this article is not intended in any way to refute this profound truth - 1 John 2:22, 23 Since we're talking about two different subjects , we should not expect to find the scriptures that refute what has been said. The purpose of this discussion is to understand if what we know about the man of lawlessness is complete or whether it can have a second commitment, a sort of "final revelation", something that we would not expect. A change of skin that they can mislead anyone, even the people of God - Compare Matthew 7:22 The writing of 2 Thessalonians 2: 4 says that the man of lawlessness would "sit in the temple of God," but in always the same Bible writer "what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? "- 2 Corinthians 6:14 The questions are rhetorical and cause to reflect. The answer is: no. So if the "temple of God" mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2: 4 it has to do with the congregation of anointed Christians, temple built on the truth, that is, on the foundation of Christ and the apostles , how can it sit there? - Compare Ephesians 2:19, 20 " Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will dwell among them and walk among [them], and I will be their God, and they shall be my people" - 2 Corinthians 6:15, 16 According to rhetorical questions contained in 2 Corinthians, it understands very well that the Temple of God remains so until it has nothing to do with lies, with idols, with Belial. So Let us go back the question: if the man of lawlessness is a fraud just based on lies, on idols, on the teaching Satan himself, how can "sit" in the temple of God? If the temple of God, even in this context, is built on Christ and on the Apostles, this is just not possible. It 'true that this temple may need an adjustment and discipline because of errors, doctrinal or otherwise but it can not be based on falsehood - See Revelation 11: 1 We must also note that there is no difference from being part of the temple of God and sit in the temple of God. Although the differences may seem minimal (and it is obvious that this is so because, as we said, we're not talking about two completely separate subjects), this is not a semantic game. Consider Daniel 11:45. Speaking of the last ruling king, that is, the one who will win the war against the king of the south, is said to "plant the tents of his palace between [the] grand sea and the holy Adornment mountain". Again, although there was no talk of the temple of God , mentioning the "holy Adornment mountain" is generally thought to be referred to true worship. It is certainly true that this king will interfere with true worship going so far as to throw it to the ground completely (Daniel 8:12) but it is to this that Daniel was referring to in this scripture ? The question that should come to mind is ... "If the Adornment mountain depicts the congregation of anointed Christians (or God's people in general),  what does it represent the great sea?". If we read just what it says, it does not seem truly and simply a geographical indication? The great sea is the Mediterranean and the Adornment Mount is Mount Moriah. Geographical indication but has important implications. Is not our entrenched belief that Jerusalem has no longer any importance in the fulfillment of the prophecies to push reading "worship" instead of simply "upstream of Adornment"? If accept this possibility, here the writing of 2 Thessalonians 2: 4 immediately takes on another meaning. He "sits in the temple of God, showing publicly that you are a god," and there is no need to read what is not written - Compare Daniel 11: 36-39 This writing also is fulfilled in the end time, does not it? Now, if we're talking about the man of lawlessness as we have known so far, in what sense will put his tent in the Adornment mount? It would not have interfered in true worship, pretending to it, in the past two thousand years? But we know that Daniel is talking about the last king, which is a political and military power, not a religion or group of religions. Yet it is this power that "will not consider the god of his fathers ... and magnify himself on anyone" (thus also on any other god). We take the words of the Lord that mention the false prophet. " For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets shall show great signs and wonders to mislead, if possible, even the elect" - Matthew 24:24 Other translations reported "signs and wonders" . False Christs are associated with signs and wonders and all this in the last few days so all the theories that these signs would have to deal with the humanitarian works (such as building hospitals, orphanages, etc.) die at birth. Jesus speaks of signs and wonders and the only apparent miracles they may mislead the elect. If none of us would be willing to go behind the first psychopath who assert to be Christ, what about someone who can do great signs and wonders, to create visions from heaven, or things like that? Before you think this is nonsense let's see what he has to tell us another inspired book about the time of the end: Revelation. " And I saw another wild beast ascending from the earth, and he had two horns like [those of] a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And it exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in front of that. It causes the earth and those who dwell therein to worship the first wild beast, whose deadly wound was healed. It performs great signs, so as to even call down fire from heaven to earth in front of the human race. It misleads those who dwell on the earth because of the signs that she was allowed to take ... "- Revelation 13: 11-14 What "signs" are allowed to have this beast? If we try to forget what we have been taught about this subject , it does not seem that the writings of Daniel, Matthew and 2 Thessalonians are connected? Is it not all about the false prophet and false worship? They do not talk all the time of the end? Do not mention the attack all the people of God? The beast with two horns lamb of Revelation is also called "false prophet" so connection would be too obvious if we were not convinced that the false religion is represented by another subject. The fact that he has two horns lamb should bring us back to the true Lamb and that it should be equally clear that it refers to a false Christ, a religious deception. It should also be clear that the same mark of the beast is opposed to the seal given to the elect - Compare Revelation 13:11 with Revelation 14: 1 in ; Revelation 13:16 with Revelation 14: 1b In fact, the contrast is emphasized in Revelation is among those who follow the Lamb and who follows the false prophet. The apostle Paul also in the writing guide of this article, mentions "the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him" and then well understand the reference time period. He says that "before" should be illegal but it meant two thousand years ago? Whatever our idea, so let's see what happens near the "ingathering with him", ie near the heavenly resurrection. Revelation 11:15 says, "And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign for ever and ever" (see also 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52) What happens in the vicinity of this crucial event? As it happens, it appears just the false prophet - See Revelation 13:11 The scriptures are a lot and those who read the writing without injury can not consider them random - Matthew 11:25 To understand properly the revelation of man of lawlessness, it will allow us to be prepared when they appear to deflect all humanity. Obviously from there arise many questions. What kind of signs and wonders will accomplish and how it will be possible? When it will make its appearance? If it is a religious deception as it can also be a king, or a political power? It was only the apostles to act as a restraint in the first century or there's just one restriction that will be "removed" to allow the complete revelation of the man of lawlessness? Who acts as a restriction in the end time? All these questions were dealt with in the following items. " This requires that we pay more than the usual attention to the things heard, that we never driven along" - Hebrews 2: 1   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. We will recognize the man of lawlessness to its final revelation?      
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