"STANDING WHERE IT DOES NOT BELONG"

[TrueTomHarley]

35 minutes ago, Anna said:

I have a sneaky suspicion it won't be a bunch of hoopla though. The flag I mean...

I confess I haven’t actually been following this thread in any depth. One would think that would prevent me from weighing in.

[Anna]

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I will definitely remember to ask him about the Chilean flags.

That will be great! Can't wait to hear what he says.

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I can't imagine that he doesn't know. But if not, I volunteer to call one or more of the KH's in Chile. BTW, at most it's a very low charge, sometimes just a few cents to call through Google Phone, or other IP phone services.

That would be great too! Thanks! I was wondering about the cost, I didn't think of Google phone etc. The hall I posted the telephone number to is actually the same hall we have been discussing on here, and the one with the flag pole you posted a street view of. There are two English congs. that meet there. The Vina del Mar, and Santiago. But you probably already know that.

P.S. Ignore the previous. I did another check, and it actually looks like the KH with the flag on Manuel Antonio Matta 2925, Viña del Mar, Valparaíso, is no longer there. At least it's not on jw.org "find a meeting". At first it looked like it was, but then I checked again, this time looking at the map on the right, and it does not indicate a hall there.... So the English congs. are actually on 2 Oriente 1076 VIÑA DEL MAR . It looks pretty posh compared to the one on Manuel Antonio Matta. I didn't notice a flag pole. 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Only people like Anna and James would claim the letter is genuine even though the letter would be sent translated to the intended idiom. It would be unconscionable to think the Watchtower would force others to learn to read English. Voluntarily yes, force, no.

Since you have libeled me, please indulge a little in-kind response, at least in tone.

I was in the Congo, years ago, and at the Branch Office on the Aveneuda des Eleephants the Brothers would get a letter from anywhere in Zaire, as it was then called, in any one of perhaps 50 different languages, the offical national language being French, and the Branch Office reply staff primarily English.   I was there, I slept there, and mowed the lawn, and packed boxes while waiting for a flight back to the United States..  They had many little black Brothers who spoke several languages, and sometimes a letter was translated  five times from the source language to the target language. The reply was composed, and it was translated back the OTHER way.

If the original query was in Swahelli, Tshiluba, French or English, Spanish, Vietnamese, or what have you ... the reply was sent in the originating language.  Nobody forced anyone Billy.   If I replied to you here in Standard Klingon, your point there would have validity. 

IMNSHO, you points rarely have validity, on any level, because they are based on your agenda of defending the indefensible.

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Once again, language rears it’s ugly head to think there is that type of people that believe language, grammar, is superior to a native tongue. Perhaps with JWinsider and TTH.

Then why spend Elementary School, Middle School, High School, and College studying how do do grammer well, and express yourself clearly and unambiguously?

There is a whole different level of skills needed to convey complex, nuanced ideas correctly.  The results of YOUR philosophy is the apex of human communications would be " ... you want Fries, with that order?", and then give the wrong change.

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I would say 98.8% of the Watchtower stuff on the internet is fake. The remaining 1.2% is misrepresented or misinterpreted by people such as you, James, Witness, and many others that are fake members or members in name only. Does this include type-o's no, those are the ones that get the most attention?

Billy, what you say is drivel, as it is based on agenda driven policy and misplaced loyalties.  Your loyalty and concern is defending the indefensible, when you are plain, flat wrong.

A PERFECT example of this is your quote ...

" ... I would say 98.8% of the Watchtower stuff on the internet is fake. The remaining 1.2% is misrepresented or misinterpreted by people such as you, James, Witness, and many others that are fake members or members in name only"

A perfect defense for my accusation will be you to tell us, HOW DID YOU GET THOSE SPECIFIC NUMBERS?  

You are living in a fantasy world of your own construct, Billy.

This means, that your OPINIONS are NOT based on fact, and your opinions are completely irrelevant.

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

In a Spanish Speaking Country, I find it nutty to have letterheads in French, English, and 20 other languages.

I do NOT believe that is the case.

To the best of my knowledge, his is NOT done in business, ANYWHERE .

If you know different, please provide REAL examples ... not your personal fantasies.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

A PERFECT example of this is your quote ...

" ... I would say 98.8% of the Watchtower stuff on the internet is fake. The remaining 1.2% is misrepresented or misinterpreted by people such as you, James, Witness, and many others that are fake members or members in name only"

A perfect defense for my accusation will be you to tell us, HOW DID YOU GET THOSE SPECIFIC NUMBERS?  

I did notice that you do stand condemned by your own words, unless you CAN justify the 98.8%, and 1.2% irrelevant fantasies.

As of this posting ... you IGNORED the simple challenge to prove your relevancy.

When you do, I will apologize... if what you have to say is based on FACTS.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

... its been a long time, but if memory serves, the "Official" and only letterhead at the Zaire Branch office was in French, as that was the official national language.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I did notice that you do stand condemned by your own words, unless you CAN justify the 98.8%, and 1.2% irrelevant fantasies.

I’m not saying some of the pictures aren’t true, James. Because they are. I have more credible evidence on video. The point I’m trying to make, the length opposers will go when they see an irregularity within the organization.

For one, the Country of Chile is not entirely democratic. There is communism that still stands in Chile. Opposers argue the brothers did it as not to pay a fine. Was that what really what happened?

There are 3 Kingdom Halls in question. Were those kingdom halls in control of an opposition party that forced the brothers to comply? For all we know, there could have been a group of patriots with threats of bodily harm in the name of the government to make someone comply. How many times don’t we see exactly that on the news? That would lead me to believe, more in the weakness of a group of Elders, but I wasn't there.

In the case of the Spanish letterheads and English wording. If that indeed was submitted by the Branch office, did some Elders misunderstand or comprehend the letter? Or were those Spanish BOE letters translated into English by opposers, then posted that way. There are 1 or 2 photos that are photoshopped. They didn’t have to be, but that’s the length some opposers like Lloyd Evans will go to distort an issue. Therefore, can we say, it’s 100% factual under those circumstances? This issue started in 2014. In 2016-2017 the flags were displayed on 3 Kingdom Halls. Was it voluntarily, by choice, or forced.

Does anyone have concrete evidence the Elders willfully complied to meet the demands of the State, or do we know if any Elders were removed for not understanding the Watchtower guidelines? According to the latest pictures, those KH in question seems to be clear of any State-sponsored propaganda.

That’s the point of probability. There are too many unknowns to make a claim of absolute. Of course, 98.8% is an exaggeration James. That doesn’t mean that a lot of things floating out on the internet is NOT fake. I believe Anna and JWinsider just proved that point with the pole shadows. Did opposers need to muddy the waters even further by that exposure? NO!

Therefore, until someone comes up with something more tangible, the reasons why still remain with those Chilean brothers, not the Watchtower.

I am quoting your ENTIRE last post, , as I don't want it to be edited or "disappear"..

I know for a certainty that you are agenda driven ... NOT TRUTH DRIVEN ... as you have just proved with your considered, but off-point, rambling, reply ...  assuming vague possibilities for which there is NO credible evidence .... or any evidence at  ALL.

Your entire thought processes are governed by wishful thinking, and agenda driven fantasy constructs.

After your  forced admission of " Of course, 98.8% is an exaggeration James". , and " I’m not saying some of the pictures aren’t true, James. Because they are. I have more credible evidence on video."

That says it all  ..... in your own words.

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

16 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I’ll give 3:1 odds that JWI finds it’s all a bunch of hoopla. Nothing less than $100 bets will be considered.

Define "hoopla".

If I take your bet, for, say $200.00,  what unambiguous specific criteria is necessary for one side or the other to prevail?

This can be either (EITHER!)  gambling, or a sound investment strategy

Otherwise,  while placing bets,  or making an investment ...... pistols on the table.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

6 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

the Watchtower has a translating department, and when given the task, they submit a letter on their native tongue

As far as i know, all written materials (read dissemination of "spiritual food" and Instructions Letters as well) from HQ in USA  to all other Bethels around the world are in English language. Why? Because every Bethel in some country that cover one or several language territory, has own Translation Department or at least Volunteers who Translate from English to domestic language. Zagreb Bethel has Translation Department too and I Personally know many Bro and Sis from Past Time to This Time who served and serving in TRANSLATION FROM ENGLISH TOO CROATIAN language.

Billy, Billy :))))))))  

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

WDS - (Watchtower Derangement Syndrome)  - The double edged sword that cuts BOTH ways.

Agenda driven fantasy rationality from the "outside, looking in.", or  from the "inside looking out".

The sword cuts BOTH ways.

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

For one, some videos show someone recording insider the KH, private property. If someone is trespassing, what makes it impossible to think a trespasser can't prop up a flag and record it. Other videos show the flag inside the hall while there are no occupants. Once again, if someone gained access to the building, it wouldn’t be hard to prop up a flag on a window and then record it.

Ok Billy, if this scenario is working in your imagination i have nothing against. But, give evidence that Elders Body of particular KH report this "trespassing" and "unauthorized access to building" to Secular Authority or at least that they have documents that such vandalism was happened. Because that would exactly been the case if your Explanation is true. 

But take in consideration how Elders Body in LACK of TWO WITNESSES perhaps would DROP the CASE in JHVH hand to resolve issue with flag and not want to involve Police in  this the mysterious appearance of the flag.

hehe :))

[Srecko Sostar]

4 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

anything can happen in a country run by communism.

Fine explanation for sure. You are anti communist but not anti capitalist ? :))

[TrueTomHarley]

6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Define "hoopla". 

I'm not completely sure what this thread is even about. Offhand, it seems like an attempt by the hypercritical people to get the picayune and the righteous-overmuch people going. 

We all know what Jehovah's Witnesses believe. So whatever is seen is Chili either squares with it or it doesn't. 

If it does, then there will be some trickery involved to get people all incensed over it. It may be fraud by photoshop or trespasser sabotage. Or there may be something circumstantial or cultural that we know nothing about..

If it doesn't. then it will be corrected, now or later. It always is. 

Once I came after you with the charge that you had an agenda and you responded with: 'Of course, I have an agenda.' I said to myself: 'The old pork chop is right. He does has one. So do I. So does everyone.' Stay here any length of time and it becomes clear who the players are and what are their agendas. They range in shades of from off-white to downright black. Thus everything anyone offers ought to be seen in this light, and the posts of some ought to be 90% dismissed on this basis alone.

The ideal is what C.T. Russell stated, that he would accept a truth even if it was from the Devil himself. But the reality is, how would you know it is the truth? Far more likely is it that he is just lying like he always does, using abundant tricks of the trade to make you think he is telling you the truth. The tools for lying are legion today, far more than in Russell's time, what with photoshopping and all. Even without photoshopping , we all know the reality of information selectively given without context or in manufactured context in hopes that people will come to false conclusions, so that @JW Insider finally has to say: 'I'll go down there myself and shake the truth out of those bad brothers (if bad brothers they be).' Obviously that is something few brothers can do, not just on account of resources, nor even on account of time, but on account of best use of time.

And if we get so worked up about reports from those whose agendas are manifestly cockeyed, if not downright foul, in these days of photoshop, what on earth will we do in the days of 'deep fakes', a day that is rapidly dawning? If anyone doesn't know the term, a casual Google search will reveal that it is the manipulation of video evidence, so that any head can be attached to any body and be made to say anything the poster wants? Are you going to lose you're cookies, then, when a GB member appears in the nude to recommend that we all start showing a little sympathy for the Devil? Because you know it is coming.

(My own prophesy, by the way, is that deep fakes will instantly be turned upon children, as technological advances usually are, for the sake of ratcheting up the bullying that they are already taking their own lives over. Since generating those deep fakes is only possible with an abundance of still photos to feed into generators, any source of those abundant photos is going to be sued off the planet. It will not be enough for social media sites to say that what they did was perfectly legal at the time and was agreed to by their users. Laws will be reinterpreted to say that they have violated them. You think lawsuits today have gotten out of hand?)

So you have to go by someone's manifest agenda. In this regard, @BillyTheKid46's comments are among the most appropriate, even if he is prickly is his presentation. Witness the modern sanctification of the term 'whistleblower'. Whistleblowers are useful, of course, but they are more useful in blowing the cover off an evil organization. Almost all of the self-styled  'whistleblowers' here think  that Jehovah's organization is evil. If you are one, like me, who doesn't think that, then you discount their comments on that basis alone.

People's veracity should be judged by always keeping in mind their overall agenda.

It is like a WT article that dealt with those occasional Bible accounts that are downright strange and even paint God in a bad light. 'All we see is a little snippet,' it said. 'What do you do with a close friend who has had your back and earned your trust over time and you know him through and through, but then you hear a bad report about him? Do you say: "YEAH! I knew it! He is a rat!" ?

Unfortunately, it is a crazy age we live in in which loyalty is seen as the mark of a chump, and there are many people who are that way.

It is like when I pointed out that the Geoffrey Jackson on Twitter was not the real Geoffrey Jackson and @Witness took a breather from bludgeoning everyone with irrelevant scriptures to say 'How do you know that it is not him?' It has his picture, doesn't it? 'He' even said'pray for our brothers in Russia.

Duh. You know it is not him because she says that it is. Presently it was revealed that he didn't give a hoot in hell for 'our brothers is Russia.' - kill them all as far as he is concerned. It was all a ruse so as to capture the attention of naïve brothers and redirect it to unflattering reports elsewhere.