"STANDING WHERE IT DOES NOT BELONG"

[JW Insider]

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I recall that Rutherford thought he was able to figure out that the thing "standing where it ought not" was obviously the British Empire since they were still occupying Palestine well after the Gentiles' time was supposed to have ended, and they should therefore have no longer been dominating the land of Israel.

To which BTK responded:

5 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Putting words on Rutherford's mouth does not give credibility to something that is obviously not understood.

Some people will never get it, in as much as they write it for themselves

BTK, I'm just trying to reference a bit of historical context that preceded our current view of the "standing where it does not belong." Your Ellen G White, "Seventh Day Adventist" reference reminded me that we hadn't yet done that for the Watchtower's view. You will be happy to know, however, that I am not claiming to understand it, or "get it," or give what I don''t understand any credibility. It's just historical reference.

The way I thought I understood it is this: Shortly after 1914, as the War raged on, Rutherford was very interested in who would end up with the winning hand in Palestine. Rutherford explained it himself in the Watchtower, 1917, p.133:

The expectations were very much on the mind of Rutherford due especially to the Zionist beliefs about Jews returning to Palestine that he had inherited from Russell. Understanding the timing seemed critical, which of course had been expected for 1915, when the Gentile Times ended and, therefore, the Jewish Times would begin.

The dispensation parallels were still the strongest source of determining that 1914 had been the end of the Gentile Times (not Daniel 4) and the idea was that Palestine was "harvested" from the beginning of Jesus' ministry up through the Jewish/Roman War of 66-70. The Jewish "harvest" was considered to have happened from 30 CE to 70 CE, for 40 years, just as the 40 years of the "Harvest of the World" was dated from 1874 to 1914. But Rutherford quickly changed it to 1878 to 1918, a 40 year period that was still being taught when I first attended the "Congregation Book Study." Yet, Rutherford now knew that the harvest had continued beyond 1914. Adjusting the complete subjugation to 73 would allow 1918 into the "parallels." The idea had even been floated that it was not until the Bar-Kochba rebellion of 135 CE, that Palestine had been "depopulated." That would put the end of the harvest in 1980, and this was an idea that Rutherford rejected because it ruined the "parallels." p.126:

But Rutherford continued to use the supposed total age of the animals that Abraham sacrificed as one of the methods, which had been used to reach 1915, and added 10 years to this in order to match up the restoration of Israel in Palestine in 1925. See page 134 of the same 1917 Watchtower:

By starting the count of the 3,960 years, 10 years later than had previously been done, Rutherford saw it as another potential evidence reaching to 1925:

From the end of the War (Barfour, etc.) up until 1925, of course, the British controlled Palestine, and because its soldiers were still there, Britain became the "thing standing where it does not belong" in the holy place. 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

And was Rutherford supposed to be being guided by God and / or Jesus Christ in all this thinking / writing ? 

 

[JW Insider]

Just to clarify. Rutherford didn't initially identify the British as the thing standing in the holy place where it ought not. Initially he made statements that showed a preference for British administration until Israel could stand on its own. He also curiously indicated that he thought the Jews would prefer an initial administration under the Mohommedan Turks, since Mohammadans (Muslims) were basically the cousins of the Jews and they could expect peace.

But Rutherford took a trip to to Britain, Greece, Palestine and Egypt later in 1920 as planning was indicated in the August 15, 1920 Watchtower. After getting underway, in October, he even opened up a Branch of the Watch Tower Society in Ramallah, Palestine:

PALESTINE BRANCH
It seemed proper and necessary that a branch office of the
Society be established within this territory . . . .

Accordingly a branch office has
been established at Ramallah, Palestine, which is within
sight of the city of Jerusalem. It will be known as the
Palestine Branch, the address being: Watch Tower Bible
and Tract Society, Ramallah, Palestine.

On visiting Egypt he began speaking of it as Satan's base of operations, which appears to be a prelude to dropping the significance of the Pyramids. But he also had trouble getting to Palestine due to the British control, and had to appeal to the American embassy:

In early 1921 he reported on the trip to Palestine, 1921 Watchtower, p.9,10:

...

This is where the tie between the "abomination" and the League of Nations became clearer to Rutherford, due to the influence of Britain over Palestine (and over the League). The two-horned beast had already been identified by Russell as Britain (p.12):

So, I wanted to clarify that it was not the British soldiers representing Britain that directly identified Britain as the abomination, but it was because British soldiers were standing in Palestine under a mandate from the League, whose votes Britain controlled. (The League had been produced as an image of the first beast Britain, and came forth from it, per Rutherford.)

[TrueTomHarley]

I actually find myself wondering sometimes if he really can be a Witness. There is plenty to suggest that he is. But he seems so determined to portray JWs as the most narrow minded, abrasive, lockstep, attack-oriented, judgmental people on earth, with even paranoid thrown in to boot, that at times I have my doubts.

Who can say, really?

To quote myself, the Internet is the land of the liars, where nobody is necessarily what they appear to be. No wonder the GB is not thrilled about Witnesses going there.

[Witness]

19 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Oh, yeah, Witness, who loathes the theocratic organization and regulary posts scurrilous items in hopes of pulling people away from it and will do so until the day she dies. Witness, who finds some devilish thing that she thinks can be twisted into stumbling loyal friends and drawing them her way. Witness, who monitors all the derogatory websites to throw out the most powerful anti-JW slander that she can find,    and what is your reaction....even after the subject has been more than adequately covered?

“Theocratic organization”

Defining “theocratic” –

   Simple definition (Oxford Dictionary):  relating to or denoting a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god.

 

“Jehovah’s spiritual temple” - “Jehovah’s theocratic organization”:

    Head:  the Governing Body

    Priesthood:  the elder body

Conclusion:  “Jehovah’s spiritual temple” is another god – an IDOL

 

God’s “organization”, outlined by scripture:  Rev 21:22-24; (2 Cor 11:2; Rev 14:4; 21:2)

   Head:  Jesus Christ – Eph 2:20-22; 1 Cor 12:12,27;  Heb 9:8,9,11,12,15,23,24

(correction made)

   Priesthood:  the anointed Body – 1 Pet 2:5,9; Acts 7:48; 1 Cor 3:16,17; 6:19; Acts 17:24; Col 2:17; Rev 5:9,10

Conclusion:  an “organization” belonging to God.

“Then I looked, and there was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him were 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.”  Rev 14:1

 

What stands, sits, rules over God’s Temple, God’s chosen “organization”? Dan 9:27; 11:31; 8:25; Matt 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1,2

It is a false priesthood, a counterfeit “organization” that calls itself  “Jehovah’s spiritual temple”

It is the Man of Lawlessness, "standing where it doesn't belong".  Mark 13:14

 

"And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. ⁶ Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, (Rev 15:5; 21:2,3) and those who dwell in heaven. (Heb 12:22) ⁷ It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.  Rev 13:5-7,18

So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

 And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not  go after them.  Luke 22:7,9

 

[Space Merchant]

@BillyTheKid46 You someone, I think the guy was a former Baptist, a Middle Eastern American young man. He made a video regarding some of what you had said about JWs, but sadly no one like this man exposing lies and bringing forth truth and there were people who literally wiped his YouTube Channel regarding this.

It tells you how people would go to great length to take out a message someone says in order to continue pushing false information as a legitimate truth.

[Space Merchant]

@Witness This goes back to the discussion of God's structure.

That being said, Paul, Clement, Peter, and several others had authority in the Church, but they were not treated as god(s). God has his people, who followed his Son, Jesus, and regarding Jesus church, those who are for him are the ones who must spread the gospel and the truth concerning the Christ and his God. Although Paul and the others were organized, there is no idolatry regarding them, the people who learn from them, etc.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

While your presentation is admirable, it still leaves a lot to be considered.

Thanks. And thanks for the further points of consideration.

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I’d say Rutherford was on to something.

I don't quite understand how you mean this. Rutherford said he dropped any and all considerations of modern Israel and the Jewish re-population of Palestine after 1930. They were no longer considered to have any part in the outworking of any further Bible prophecies. From Rutherford, the last major pro-Zionist writing on the topic was "Comfort for the Jews" and "Comfort for the People," both from 1925.

If he was "on to something" do you mean he shouldn't have dropped it as if it were all a mistake? 

[Space Merchant]

On 3/22/2019 at 2:58 PM, BillyTheKid46 said:

In case, you don’t understand what I mean. All you need to do is stay current with modern events to understand.

https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Golan-Heights-Druze-members-reject-Trumps-support-of-Israeli-sovereignty-584301

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/21/politics/trump-golan-heights-tweet/index.html

 

 

 

This was expected. Israel and their allies which includes the US, France, UK, etc. Bolton the warmonger, their disdain for Iranians and those of Syria, etc. There is a slow tension on the other side of the spectrum regarding this as well. The MSM is also playing in the stories and events taking place too, especially with what happen in New Zealand. And there is tension going about regarding Christians in some parts and has caused some to even be angered.