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1 hour ago, Melinda Mills said:

As Tom Harley said, they might soon obtain a picture with him on the toilet seat.  Give the man some privacy. Jesus and his disciples had wine with their meal.  Wine was like water in the Mediterranean regions. Paul told Timothy to take some wine instead of water. 

This type of “hit piece” reporting ( it doesn’t matter who the target is) has a way of resolving into nothing.

(Now, if I should see him in there every single day........)

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15 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

Where did he get such money? I thought he made a "Vow of poverty" as part of the Religious Order of Jehovah's Witnesses?


12 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Vow of poverty is funny instrument, and why to apply that on people who has nothing? 

There is something very childish about these remarks, as though one has gone on a "starvation diet" and his enemies later come along and are upset that he has not starved to death.

It is very very unlikely, I think, that dedicated funds account for his spree. If you have worked with Jehovah's Witnesses, you simply know this.

He co-directs an organization directly benefiting 8 million persons, and indirectly benefiting many more. That will include friends in financial high places; those sort of friends are not stingy.

In Knorr's time, he being the one to funnel vendor business here and there, some of those vendors would lavish gifts on him. I've been told (anecdotal evidence - @JW Insider will know things like this) that he had given him (I think by a paper manufacturer) a Cadillac or two, which mostly just sat there in the Bethel garage. At the time, such was standard practice anywhere, and since many members of Congress enriched themselves that way, laws were passed against it. Not sure if they were passed to dissuade anyone other than Congress, though.

I appeal to JWI for facts, even though he corrected me when I wrote that the GB rode in the wheelwells of airplanes so as to get from Point A to Point B as cheaply as possible. 'Nah, they don't,' he said.

Have parallel things happened in this day with technology vendors? Dunno. Maybe. What! is anyone other than Lloyd so stupid as to think he is guzzling himself away after a day's work pondering God? It may even be intended for entertaining those vendors themselves, who, when they come calling, distrust the Kool-Aid.

Now, the GB doesn't do business deals, like Knorr did. They have them isolated whereby they simply think about God, like the apostles in the first century who didn't want to be distracted by "waiting on tables." So that suggesting doesn't fit so closely as in might with Knorr. But still...

Every exchange I have had with Lloyd reveals him to be a pretty nasty piece of work. That does not mean that he will not have plenty of allies, for he gets the job done. But he has an affinity for bullying and taunting gifs. I used him as a window into the world of opposers, but I ultimately dropped him from my feed, because I was too tempted to answer him. Every exchange shows him up as bullying, but it gets wearing even though I like to show him up in that way. There really is something to that circuit assembly part geared to teens (with spillover for adults, probably, as good general council) about that kid who replied to one "apostate" because he just got mad at the truth being maligned & and he was reasoned with that it might not be such a good idea.

Here is my latest (ideally my last) episode with this character:


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8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

In Knorr's time, he being the one to funnel vendor business here and there, some of those vendors would lavish gifts on him. I've been told (anecdotal evidence - @JW Insider will know things like this) that he had given him (I think by a paper manufacturer) a Cadillac or two, which mostly just sat there in the Bethel garage. . . .  I appeal to JWI for facts. . . .

I am still under my own self-imposed gag order with respect to joining in discussions of anything controversial that might affect anyone's view of Witness doctrine and Watchtower practices, past and present.

Also, I have not listened to Lloyd Evans for more than 5 minutes, total. I heard he did a fair job on the Montana CSA trial, but I have only read the court documents. I know nothing of this liquor store picture/video, and am embarrassed to comment in a topic with this name. I go into a liquor store almost weekly myself because the owner lets me take about 30 strong cardboard boxes every Saturday night or Sunday morning. Once every month or so, I'll feel bad about taking advantage, so I buy a bottle of wine. I need the boxes because I'm in the middle of culling out literally thousands of books from my shelves and storage, and other things from my garage and basement, that I've been donating and tossing. Hundreds of these books were given to my wife when she was the school district's Director of Second Languages, ESL, and Curriculum. They lavished sets of books on her because she made decisions that would mean tens of thousands of dollars for these vendors. I have no direct knowledge of Knorr's gifts or offers from vendors, if any, but I've heard about similar rumors.

Drinking stories were always rampant at Bethel. There were always stories of higher-ups getting drunk, but this was likely fueled by younger Bethelites who were looking for excuses for their own behavior. The cooks who worked an after-dinner late shift only available to "higher ups" had the most consistent stories, but I still saw signs of exaggeration. But I have seen young Bethelites get drunk, and it was shameful and embarrassing. (For some 19 and 20 year olds, Bethel would have been their first real experience with alcohol.) I have seen housekeepers gathering liquor bottles from rooms and the sum total would have surprised anyone. I was sometimes surprised that people were periodically sent home for stealing and immorality, but never (that I knew of) for excessive drinking.

This does not mean that excessive drinking was ever condoned. I heard plenty of good scriptural counsel against excessive drinking from the Bethel "morning worship" following the discussion of the day's text. 

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4 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Jesus and his disciples had wine with their meal.  Wine was like water in the Mediterranean regions. Paul told Timothy to take some wine instead of water. 

The wine in Jesus’ day was mostly “peasant wine”, harvest wine.  It was barely fermented and had to be cut with water to make it palatable because of the lack of filtering.  Wine today is not the same wine as thousands of years ago.  The fermentation process has come a long way since then.   




I wonder what the reaction would be if a JW happened to walk into a liquor store for a bottle of whatever…and found his “neighbor” from the kingdom hall buying up over $900.00 worth of whisky and other alcohol, on any day of the week.  My, how the rumors would fly. They fly if a man offers an unmarried woman a ride to the kingdom hall.  But something like this, would most likely catch the attention of the elders who would be moved to make a “shepherding call”. 

But in this case, a GB member, who had his opinion in the creation of the opening video below, is given all sorts of excuses for his actions. 

I can’t believe JWs do not see the hypocrisy. JWs don't WANT to see it.




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37 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I know nothing of this liquor store picture/video, and am embarrassed to comment in a topic with this name.

I just watched the video from the last post. Very creepy. Seems it should be illegal to post a video like this. GB TMZ. Easily misinterpreted, too.

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Also, I have not listened to Lloyd Evans for more than 5 minutes, total. 

That’s 5 more minutes than me. It is very hard for me to indulge in these podcasts because the host is almost always obnoxious, petulant, or dull beyond words.

Reading I do much of, where one can cover the ground much faster and can even skim for something new if the bulk of it is drivel, as it often is.

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Internet sources.

NOT JW explanation:

1) Furthermore, another perspective motivating people to take the vow of poverty is the sheer inequality in the world. Rather than simply acknowledging the existence of poverty, individuals who take the vow gain first-hand experience, an experience that may better equip them to aid the poor in the future.

2) A vow, taken by members of some religious orders to renounce all personal property; everything they possess being used for the common good.

JW explanation:

What is involved in serving under the simple Vow? It means that those in special full-
time service have formally entered into an arrangement in which they agree to expend their full-
time efforts toward the advancement of a religious goal. It also means that they are doing so
without any expectation of being paid, as one would be in a secular setting. Members can enter
into this arrangement because the Order sees to it that each member's basic necessities of life are
cared for. Although the term "poverty" is used in the Vow, this does not mean that the
Governing Body is asking you to relinquish ownership in property that you now possess or that
you may acquire in the future. Rather, this expression means that you agree to forego the
expectation of being paid for your endeavors while serving in the Order and that you also agree
to not seek gainful employment while serving in the Order. As those of you who have devoted
many years to special full-time service can verify, this is the arrangement under which special
full-time servants have been living for many years, even prior to the time when this arrangement
was formally documented through the signing of a previous vow.
Concerning point six of the Vow, sources of income other than work are not affected by
being under this Vow. It does not pertain to income such as interest from bank accounts or
bonds, dividends from stocks, rent received from property owned by the member, and other

Page 4 of 4
income unrelated to present personal efforts. It does not apply to gifts, inheritances, or
unsolicited benefits, which a member of the Order may receive from time to time. Any of you
who are receiving income from possessions are not required to turn these monies over to the
Order, although you should be aware that (his income is no doubt subject to taxation.
In summary, reading prayerfully and signing the Vow does not mean that you cannot own
property or that you have determined to donate all your material possesions to the Order. Rather,
it documents that you have agreed to serve Jehovah as a special full-time servant, serving in
cooperation with others in the Order, without expectation of financial gain. and that you have
determined to refrain from any gainful activity while in Jehovah's special full-time service.
We are pleased to present you with this direction from the Governing Body and trust that
this letter answers any questions you may have. However, please feel free to write to the branch
office if you have any remaining inquiries.

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