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A CIRCUIT OVERSEER STATES, "YOUR FAITH IS GARBAGE AND NEEDS TO BE TORN DOWN"

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2 hours ago, Outta Here said:

Amateur drivel 

I agree.

He should have used clip on wireless microphones with the receivers plugged into the mic jack of his video camera,  I have AZDEN mic system that will take two wireless clip-on microphones on separate channels and combine them at the camera. 

It would have made for much more consistent sound when he was outside.   Also ... there was no explanation about what the SUBJECT of his disfellowshipping hearings was all about, ( all hush-hush ... can't tell you...) so it seems that his whole spiel was about an ignorant and clueless CO, of which we know from experience, there is no shortage.

No news there.

I was once explaining to s high ranking Elder type about how I view duty to put up with the shortcomings of the Elders sort of like being in the Marines, and you have to obey the officers even though ..... and he cut me off in a loud angry voice "I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ANYTHING ABOUT THE MARINES!" ...  and so I was not able to explain my viewpoint at all.

And that elder had ASKED .... for.... my viewpoint.

What he accuses is entirely believable, ONLY because I have seen similar things over and over and over.  He, however, provided no proof .. or even relatable context to make HIS story anything but noise.

Although the author of this video may have some legitimate concerns, he did not provide any background information, such a "who?, what?, when?, where?, how?, and /or why?", so like his compressed air train horns for his truck, although impressive, had no meaning.

Without enough information to check any story he might be trying to tell for accuracy, it is worth what it is.

NOISE.

Fool me a hundred times   .jpg

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13 minutes ago, Witness said:

It's one video in a series.  This is #10, I believe. 

Since there appears to me to be nothing new here, I will not be watching the previous 9 videos, unless there are  good reasons to, and there does not appear to be any.

How about a quick synopsis?

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There's a simple message in this video that doesn't require watching all 10 of them, or waiting to hear the "rest of the story".  The reason  I posted it is only to show the contradiction of Watchtower’s teachings, and what the consequences are for not having FAITH in the organization. Rev 13:4  What was told him on the day of baptism is also quoted in the Bible Teach Book:

 Baptism represents something very important. When you are immersed in water, it means that you have died to, or abandoned, your former way of life. When you come out of the water, you will begin a new life doing God’s will. It shows that you will serve Jehovah from now on. Remember that you are not dedicated to a human, an organization, or a work. You have dedicated your life to Jehovah.  "Should I Dedicate My Life to God and be Baptized?"  par 24

Hundreds of people are disfellowshipped every year for rejecting the organization, but STILL maintain their faith in God and Christ.  What the C.O. stated is exactly what the organization believes.  Rev 13:15   If one doesn’t put faith in the organization, their faith is garbage.   

Watchtower 79/3/1, pg 12-18, the article is entitiled, "FAITH IN JEHOVAH'S VICTORIOUS ORGANIZATION"

God is NOT an organization.  We are to put faith only in Him and His Son.  

 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. Exod 20:4-6

Only those who see the hypocrisy and face the day they question it, will understand what this man is going through.    I just hope there is a JW here asking the same questions as this man has.  

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

The word “garbage” is of course propaganda.

 

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

However, it would be nice to see what the overseer actually said. 😉

I agree that we (as listeners of this video) are in position to accept or reject this testimony in full or partially. .....BUT..... having knowledge of "the other side" (CO, elders) it would not be surprising that some of them are so sure in own authority and spirituality, self-righteousness to such measure/level in which some of them would dare to make proclamation how someone's faith is "garbage". Of, course we don't know what looks (what was looked) like relationship between CO and this man before this KH parking lot conversation.   

 

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GB Helper quote: "That person's relationship with JHVH is forever ruined. JHVH discards the person like a piece of garbage."

GB terminology: sinful person is garbage

CO terminology: someone's (person's) faith is garbage

"Garbage" is in WTJWORG lexic. And can be using for determining some person's spiritual or literal position inside WTJWORG or in front JHVH God.

 

 

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21 hours ago, Witness said:

Hundreds of people are disfellowshipped every year for rejecting the organization, but STILL maintain their faith in God and Christ. 

It really is not about rejecting the organization, it's because not everyone who has faith in God qualifies to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. It's about rejecting God's standards. For example, you may have faith in God, but believe the Trinity. Or you may have faith in God but see nothing wrong with celebrating Christmas, or practicing homosexuality, or living an immoral life style, or smoking......etc.

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2 hours ago, Anna said:

It really is not about rejecting the organization, it's because not everyone who has faith in God qualifies to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. It's about rejecting God's standards. For example, you may have faith in God, but believe the Trinity. Or you may have faith in God but see nothing wrong with celebrating Christmas, or practicing homosexuality, or living an immoral life style, or smoking......etc.

 

You are saying it is assumed that all those disfellowshipped for rejecting the organization, will reject God's standards as well.  I doubt the elders have the ability to peer into the future and determine that the person they are disfellowshipping , will soon become trinitarians, homosexuals, etc. 

God's standards require rejection of idolatry.  Exod 20: 4,5; Judges 10:14; Isa 44:9;46:3-5; Acts 4:12; 7:49-51; 17:24;25; Rev 13:1:4-7

God's standards require rejection of false prophesy.  Deut 18:20-22; Ezek 13:9; Matt 7:15-20; 24:24; 2 Tim 4:3,4; Acts 20:28-30; 1 John 4:1; Rev 13:11,15

JWs may say they have faith in God, but practice both idolatry and tolerate false prophesy.  

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Practice and tolerance of what is wrong, often times comes very quietly and imperceptibly.

If the premise is correct; the devil rules the world and seduces people. In that case; devil can and do every trickery to spoil what is true and right and justice/correct. In that light, WTJWORG are NOT IMMUNE on the same. Human History, or if you wish more precisely, Bible History, from Adam to nowadays proves this simple and cruel reality.

Every single free moral agent, free will human, proves one and single fact - all are corruptible, can be spoiled by bad and half true or by lie

To have the conviction that an individual or organization is in every respect correct and "having the truth" (religious or some other moral truth) is often the way to appear, to happen just the opposite. Perhaps not necessary on every particular issue. Problem that exist is in this; Organization ask from you, even demand from you to be loyal to all doctrines. They not allows your personal choice to "pick" what you feel as truth, but to carry all what they as Organization found to be The Truth.  

Sometimes, a certain Dilemma, before which we sometimes find ourselves, is the moment when we can be relieved of the trap of the deception in which we fall. But the liberation process of this kind does not always succeed. The fallacy, which is within us, provides a strong resistance and people around us (power of collective/group), who are loyal to the same deceit, working to encourage us to stay in the trap. 

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10 hours ago, Anna said:

It really is not about rejecting the organization, it's because not everyone who has faith in God qualifies to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. It's about rejecting God's standards. For example, you may have faith in God, but believe the Trinity. Or you may have faith in God but see nothing wrong with celebrating Christmas, or practicing homosexuality, or living an immoral life style, or smoking......etc.

@Anna I cannot believe you said / wrote this. Are you drunk ?

I left the JW Org because of God's high standards. Because the GB and it's Org are going against God's high standards. 

Are you totally blind to the Child Abuse within JW Org ?

Are you blind to the shunning of people that leave the JW Org for the right reasons ? 

Are you blind to the lies / misuse of scriptures / changing of use of scriptures ?

Do you think JW's have a higher standard of morals than other people ? 

Are you so blinded by the smokescreen of hypocrisy in the JW Org ? 

Are you so dominated by those 8 men in charge and by the Elders that act as policemen ? 

Sorry Anna, I think that your comment is so naive. 

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5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

 I cannot believe you said / wrote this. Are you drunk ?

John, You should bring it down a few notches. I should say up front that I am not a moderator but was given some admin privileges only to be able to move posts around and keep topics better organized.

So I'm not speaking as any kind of moderator, and I do not have (or condone) the use of those kinds of privileges to discipline or censure people. People can say just about anything they want about another person's beliefs here. But we shouldn't say just anything we want about the individual. We shouldn't presume to impute bad motives or a bad state of mind (as in drunkenness).

I didn't want to respond to a matter before hearing it, so I ended up watching the video. (I use the term "watching" loosely. Because it was YouTube, I was able to turn it up to 2x speed and then repeatedly click forward on the red line so skip about 3 seconds and then watch 3 seconds over and over. This gives the general idea of a 10 minute video in just over 2 minutes.)

I thought the person sounded angry, perhaps understandably, but also very haughty. I thought it interfered with his message, if not his credibility. Seems he and his wife heard a few statements and we have no idea if he is quoting them exactly or really putting them in context. We have to allow that people have different personalities and different views and reactions, but we can't give credit to an idea just because we agree, and then discredit another view (as naive and drunken, for example) just because we disagree.

Instead, we should deal with the subject matter raised, not the specific individual's motives and state of mind.

I also fail at this. Many of us do. But I hope you aren't upset that I point it out.

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7 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

John, You should bring it down a few notches. I should say up front that I am not a moderator but was given some admin privileges only to be able to move posts around and keep topics better organized.

So I'm not speaking as any kind of moderator, and I do not have (or condone) the use of those kinds of privileges to discipline or censure people. People can say just about anything they want about another person's beliefs here. But we shouldn't say just anything they want about the individual. We shouldn't presume to impute bad motives or a bad state of mind (as in drunkenness).

I didn't want to respond to a matter before hearing it, so I ended up watching the video. (I use the term "watching" loosely. Because it was YouTube, I was able to turn it up to 2x speed and then repeatedly click forward on the red line so skip about 3 seconds and then watch 3 seconds over and over. This gives the general idea of a 10 minute video in just over 2 minutes.)

I thought the person sounded angry, perhaps understandably, but also very haughty. I thought it interfered with his message, if not his credibility. Seems he and his wife heard a few statements and we have no idea if he is quoting them exactly or really putting them in context. We have to allow that people have different personalities and different views and reactions, but we can't give credit to an idea just because we agree, and then discredit another view (as naive and drunken, for example) just because we disagree.

Instead, we should deal with the subject matter raised, not the specific individual's motives and state of mind.

I also fail at this. Many of us do. But I hope you aren't upset that I point it out.

@JW Insider Yes I'm upset that you choose to point it out. You are talking like an Elder. This isn't one of your Kingdom Halls so don't try to dominate me. 

Have you ever read Billy the Kid's comments, saying that I need medical attention ?  That's ok is it ? 

And TTH has mentioned my past situation causing me problems etc. 

My comment to Anna was about her comment not about the video. 

OK, let's get down to basics. what exactly was Anna saying about people that reject the JW Org ? 

She was saying that ex-JW's rejected God's standards. I'm an ex JW so does that include me ?

Anna was saying that ex JW's are not good enough to serve God. That is just what the GB and JW Org want people to believe. It's part of the brainwashing. It stops many JW's asking any questions. 

I was hurt by Anna's comment and I'm equally hurt by yours. But then you are both JW's so what more should I expect. 

I think TTH has said this is basically an open forum and we must all accept what others say. Things hurt me and I try to 'let it go by' (quoting Joe Cocker) but I don't expect people to talk down to me as if they are an Elder in a KH. 

Are you an elder ? Your name makes me think you are a 'spy' 'Insider'. Whistleblower.  But probably an Elder too.

Maybe you should stay in the 'Private Club' which is probs more 'soft' for you. 

If @admin thinks I'm out of line I'm sure they will give me a warning or ban me from the forum. 

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I focused on “God’s standards”, but after reading the comment by Srecko and John, I realized I missed this part highlighted :

14 hours ago, Anna said:

It really is not about rejecting the organization, it's because not everyone who has faith in God qualifies to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. It's about rejecting God's standards.

Typically, JWs believe qualifying to be a JW is following God’s standards.    One must enter into a religion formulated by men to “qualify” for life, which is why a person becomes a Mormon, a Seventh Day Adventist or a Catholic.  They gather their flock and pin them down with rituals to be observed and interpretations called doctrine that must be adhered to.  When men rule over men, God’s standards which are based on Christ’s teachings, do not exist.  The captive treasure that the Watchtower uses for its unique validation as “the truth”, are the anointed ones.  Rev 20:7-9; 13:10

 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.  Col 2:8

The “elemental spiritual forces” that instigate the need of an earthly organization, a labeled religion to serve God, is sourced in Satan.   The man in the video who is being slandered because of his desire to put faith in the truths of the Bible, is beginning to wake up to this fact.   He has every reason to be angry.  

 

 

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17 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Yes I'm upset that you choose to point it out. You are talking like an Elder. This isn't one of your Kingdom Halls so don't try to dominate me.

OK.

18 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Have you ever read Billy the Kid's comments, saying that I need medical attention ?  That's ok is it ? 

No it's not OK. I didn't happen to see that one, but I don't doubt you. I've seen similar from him. If you thought that what he said was unnecessarily harsh and judgmental, I hope you or someone else said something. Even if he would have felt like "elders" were trying to dominate him, he should know that such statements are as hurtful as more blatant types of bullying. It's the unnecessarily harsh judgment of the person's motives or state of mind that I think we should avoid.

20 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And TTH has mentioned my past situation causing me problems etc. 

I think I remember that from him -- a couple of times, in fact. I didn't take it as overly harsh but I was sensitive to your reaction. Sometimes we choose to reveal a portion of our background and experience in order to add credibility to our comments. In such cases, we legitimately open up that background itself to scrutiny and assumptions about its relevance, or import. BTK regularly tries to discredit my own experiences and background as either false or ill-motivated. He has that right, because I have given him that right in choosing to share my experiences as they relate to my opinions. I think that to some extent you open yourself up to criticism about your own views when you admit that they are based on experiences. If we don't like your opinions on a matter we might feel cornered by your first-hand knowledge of the issue, at least anecdotally. So our best defense is to say that your opinions are "tainted" by your experience instead of "informed" by your experience. It's a very weak response, but for those who come here to learn about people's experiences, the weakness of that kind of argument against the opinion/experiences probably becomes obvious to others.

46 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

OK, let's get down to basics. what exactly was Anna saying about people that reject the JW Org ?

I'll let her answer that. I admit there were some weaknesses in her argument, with respect to addressing your view of the organization, just as I suspect there were weaknesses in all of our responses. But I appreciate you bringing it back to the basics of what she was saying.

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On 5/3/2019 at 8:13 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Since there appears to me to be nothing new here, I will not be watching the previous 9 videos, unless there are  good reasons to, and there does not appear to be any.

I won't watch the present nor the previous nine.  I agree there is nothing here.  

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2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Anna, and JWinsider are a couple.

Yikes.

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

But, their tail is a dead giveaway.

Yikes, again.

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

When I said you need meds, I heard that from people here before, like JAMES. However, you won’t see a censure from JWinsider lobbied against James Thomas Rook Jr.

This is pretty much correct as I remember it, too. It was JTR who made fun of you (while you were using a different name). It was about "meds" at least once, and he also made fun of you on another occasion in a similar vein. You called him out on it at the time, so I didn't see a need to. You actually called him out on it a second time a few months later and JTR denied that he had ever said what he actually had said. But again, you were already calling him out on it.

I called out John on his "drunk" reference, just as a reminder that these things sometimes escalate and someone ends up getting disciplined and then there are hurt feelings for a long time to come. And what's worse is that sometimes the escalations can get out of hand and people leave or get locked out of the forum. I hate to see such things.

But as I think about it, I was wrong to mention anything to John. It wasn't my place. And perhaps it was even a bit sexist of me to step in for Anna as if she couldn't respond for herself. As you say, it's not like I try to step in for every little thing. Even when you say things I don't like about me personally, I let about 90 percent of them go without mentioning anything. (In fact, when I tried to respond to about 30 percent of your claims in a recent thread, it was John who stepped in to censure both of us for unchristianlike fighting.)

So, @JOHN BUTLER I would like to apologize for involving myself in an argument that was not for me, in the first place. I have my own prejudices like everyone else, perhaps more than you. Some person's comments I hardly ever even read. So I could never be a fair moderator anyway.

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On 5/3/2019 at 8:13 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

How about a quick synopsis?

Don't think you will be getting any of that. Not even a refund on lost time. Aside from that, such videos are common whereas any can said something word of mouth and a flock of people will automatically believe it because they share the same disdain for someone or something.

There is stuff out there that tend to like us Unitarians to lizards or gov't sleeper agents or something weird. Non religiously, there is videos and terms deemed outlandish.

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My goodness topic wars. (A bit like Robot Wars only funnier) 

We we are all totally off topic of course and we all have our own opinions.

@BillyTheKid46 I honestly don't know who is a Witness and who is an ex-Witness, or who was never a Witness at all

My opinion was that @JW Insider is still a Witness but working for both sides, a bit like Judas did. My feelings are that he/she thinks the JW Org as a whole has the 'truth' but that maybe the GB are going off track. 

As for @Anna , I'm totally confused. I thought she, I presume she is a she, was a Witness as I thought she wrote in the present time about her kingdom hall and elders. 

And you Billy, even you confuse me. Sometimes I think you are a Witness and other times I think you are a religious person but not a Witness.

Hence, everyone, I tell you this, once again. When I upvote or downvote or make reference to a comment, it is ONLY about that ONE comment.  One reason for that is I have a bad memory and cannot remember ten comments back, and a second reason is that a lot of the time,such as now, we are totally off topic anyway, so we cannot be commenting on the actual topic heading.

I do wish people would be their real selves, real names, real photos, etc. It would make my life so much easier. 

Good morning From me in Devon England at 9.30am. I am not a robot :) :) :) 

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2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

My opinion was that @JW Insider is still a Witness but working for both sides, a bit like Judas did. My feelings are that he/she thinks the JW Org as a whole has the 'truth' but that maybe the GB are going off track.

For what it's worth, my opinion is that @JW Insider works for both sides in a different sense. I like the way Paul put it:

  • (1 Corinthians 9:19-23) . . .For though I am free from all people, I have made myself the slave to all, so that I may gain as many people as possible. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew in order to gain Jews; to those under law I became as under law, though I myself am not under law, in order to gain those under law. 21 To those without law I became as without law, although I am not without law toward God but under law toward Christ, in order to gain those without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, in order to gain the weak. I have become all things to people of all sorts, so that I might by all possible means save some. 23 But I do all things for the sake of the good news, in order to share it with others.

Early Christianity started out in the context of Judaism, which had become steeped in end-of-the-world eschatology, and the legalism of the Pharisees. But end-of-the-world eschatology, although dangerous to Christianity on its own (per Jesus), still naturally drew out crowds of people who sighed and groaned over the injustices of their world. They wanted a new heavens and a new earth, and they wanted it as soon as possible.

So early Christians would be mistaken to focus on eschatology, but many good Christians, desirous of a new heavens and new earth, would naturally come to Christianity through this path.

Jesus gave several illustrations showing why focusing on eschatology was so dangerous to true Christianity, and we have the words of Peter to explain how Christians must transform into those who would be the very same type of person they ought to be, whether the parousia came in their own lifetime, or whether it came 1,000 years after their own lifetime.

Another major focus of Jesus' illustrations and teaching was about legalism. Early Christianity was still steeped in Judaism, and still attempted to put Christians under law, even after it was recognized that the Judaic system didn't apply to gentiles.

Jesus' illustration in Matthew 24:45 of the unfaithful servants --who would beat their fellow slaves and try to lord it over them when the master was gone-- is a good illustration reminding us of the dangers of both eschatology AND the dangers of legalism/Pharisaism.

Paul played both sides of Pharisaism/legalism because he was accused of being an apostate from Judaism. So they asked him to pay for some legalistic customary preparations for the persons going with him to the Temple.

  • (Acts 21:20-24) . . .but they said to him: “You see, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews, and they are all zealous for the Law. 21 But they have heard it rumored about you that you have been teaching all the Jews among the nations an apostasy from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or to follow the customary practices. 22 What, then, is to be done about it? They are certainly going to hear that you have arrived. 23 So do what we tell you: We have four men who have put themselves under a vow. 24 Take these men with you and cleanse yourself ceremonially together with them and take care of their expenses, so that they may have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know that there is nothing to the rumors they were told about you, but that you are walking orderly and you are also keeping the Law.

So rather than claiming that the GB have gone off track, I believe they are continually getting more and more ON track. I believe they naturally started partly off-track as would be expected with a very eschatological Russell and a very legalistic Rutherford. But all the while, it was the right kind of heart condition being attracted to and joining into the religion -- a religion with a greater focus on the type of person we ought to be for Jehovah, for ourselves and for one another. This was much like the form of Judaism that naturally made persons fit for transformation into Christianity. Legalistic Judaism was like a tutor leading to Christ. But we must still be transformed.

Paul played both sides in order to win more persons over to Christ. To Jews he became a Jew. To Greeks he became a Greek.

Still the core of the religion itself is one that does perhaps the best job of all religions in fighting the machinations of the Devil: avoiding taking one side over another in politics and war, pointing out the unchristian influences on supposedly Christian traditions, and pointing out the value of Christian morality, and unity of purpose in preaching, meeting together, etc. To me these are the most important things. Granted the Pharisaism still keeps us hanging on to rules (like turning in time so that our right hand and our left can distinguish different types of Christian service, and misuse of the two-witness rule so that mercy and protection of children has often been sacrificed, etc.). And eschatology will keep rearing its head now and then, too.

But these things are getting better over time, getting more on-track, not off-track. Pharisees don't want to be questioned, but we must all take our Christian duty and responsibility very seriously. We must question. We must make sure of all things. And we can only expect more questioning as more persons from all walks of life keep coming into the organization. I find that this forum is still a fair enough place to question and get feedback to help test whether those questions are on the right track.

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11 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

What you and Anna do in your personal lives is of no consequence to me. If you are married to other people and are having an internet love affair

If I didn't know better, I'd say you didn't have a disgusting and filthy mind.

11 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

If you are referring what you did to AllenSmith34. That’s up to you and that person. If you made fun of or insulted that person back then

The reason I stood up for Allen Smith and all your (his) aliases was made very clear. I always defended your right to say what you wanted. Of course, you had to know, and still know, that the content of what you were saying would be open to countering opinions that could contain criticism, facts and evidence. Even if some of the statements made by some of your aliases have been deleted, none of my own were, and this is how you can see that I never insulted you of made fun of you. I never made fun of your grammar either, which is something that some of your aliases kept repeating, and for which you always failed to produce evidence. I admitted that I could not always understand what you were saying. Several people here had the same problem understanding you sometimes, not just me.

11 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

If you’re able to apologize to an opposer, why haven’t you been able to apologize to a faithful member that sees your errors?

I have apologized to you every time you have pointed out an error. This goes for all your aliases. And I'm not saying this because I think you have never pointed out an error. There have been several occasions when you were right and I was wrong. I still apologize for these mistakes, and have corrected them. By the way, I do not ask the same of you. You could say whatever filthy and disgusting things that might come into your mind. I might point them out, and sometimes I might just ignore them, but I won't ask you to apologize. 

11 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

and regardless if you think you personally insulted my life giver or not, not too long ago, is another example of your hypocrisy.

This reminds me of typical corporate-sponsored news outlets, and other forms of propaganda, in which people obviously believe, hypocritically, that if they repeat a falsehood often enough, it will probably have some "sticking" effect.

12 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

If that means you people consider me AllenSmith, then I will be AllenSmith until this person steps up to the take reins.

Thanks. I have already done so from the first day you took up this last alias. But it does make it a bit easier to refer to you again, Allen.

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@JW Insider If the Society / GB and all in 'command' had acted in the way that Paul was saying in that 1 Corinthians 9 19-23 scripture, then the Earthwide Child Abuse / Pedophilia  would never have happened. 

But you seem to see it as just collateral damage, necessary for the 'progress' of the Org. 

Quote "Still the core of the religion itself is one that does perhaps the best job of all religions in fighting the machinations of the Devil: " 

How can that be so when many of the beliefs are based on lies or misinformation and meanings of scripture constantly change to suit the purpose of the GB ? And also as I've mentioned above the Child Abuse.  

And you yourself mentioned the Armageddon threats from the Org. When in honesty they have no real idea. They keep moving the goalposts to suit themselves. 

And of course the shunning we will never agree on but we can agree to differ. 

And I've only just spotted this "and pointing out the value of Christian morality", now that has to be a joke. 

And the "We must question." Really ? and get disfellowshipped for doing so. 

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@BillyTheKid46   Quote "Therefore, John, this is really not off topic. If there was an overseer that said OUR FAITH IS GARBAGE AND NEEDS TO BE TORN DOWN

This is exactly what it means, with the examples given here."

The overseer does not have that authority from God. Neither does your GB fake 'faithful slave class '

But if you need to worship the GB then so be it.  Putting your faith in MEN is against God and against His written word and you know it.  You will be judged for doing that. 

As for me, yes, I am lost in many ways. I cannot understand why God does not make it more plain to humans which way to worship Him. I won't repeat scripture concerning the anointed as you will totally reject it again.

As for the 2 Peter 2 scripture well we can all have own own opinion of it. I think it refers to the Anointed... Verse 20 is needed to fully get the idea of it all.. 

It is quite easy for those inside and outside of the JW Org to see how those 'taking the lead' act as bullies. The threat of Armageddon is one point. Pretending it is 'so close' when it could be hundreds of years away. 

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40 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The overseer does not have that authority from God. Neither does your GB fake 'faithful slave class '

If i may say and put this subject, about "given authority" in this way:

IF some man .... IF he get (or if he imagined how his authority comes from "above") his authority from "above" (in any capacity we can imagine, secular or religious ...) he "has" such authority as far as he practicing what is good for others who are "under" his ruling, leading, governing position. 

Every time, in every separate issue, when he making or made bad decisions and bad regulations that have bad influence and bad repercussions and bad outcomes for other people - you are Not Obligate to Obey him ... or at least, you are not Obligate to Agree with him! 

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On 5/5/2019 at 9:56 AM, Melinda Mills said:

I won't watch the present nor the previous nine.  I agree there is nothing here.  

Interesting stance. So without even watching, and learning what this person said, you choose to accept group think. Not only accepting the groups position, but stating that there is nothing of value, as if you were educated on the subject. Hmmm, why even say anything at all if status quo was the approach? 

I think that forums like this and many more are invaluable, because we get to see and understand opposing views to further our knowledge and research for our position without actually having to have the conversation face to face. It gives us more time to formulate our ideas with facts (or at least hopefully facts), instead of dismissing based on our feelings. 

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Just now, BillyTheKid46 said:

Couldn't that be said about you? What makes you think your intellect is superior? What kind of value do those opposing views reflect if they are presented in a false narrative? educate yourself first before you condemn the actions of others. If you like seeing garbage, that's up to you. Don't force your views on others. Especially false ones.

Opposing views are an excellent way for one to reflect on the position we hold. If someone gives us something we've never thought of, it could actually open our eyes to a different view, but we must first be willing to listen. 

And what should I educate myself on in regards to this? Please tell me, so I can be educated. 

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@BillyTheKid46  Are you actually a Jehovah's Witness ? I'm beginning to think not

Quote "There are several reasons why a person would go directly to hell do not pass; go "

There is no 'hell'.   Only death and a possible resurrection. I say possible because not everyone, it seems, gets  a resurrection.  

The dead are conscious of nothing at all. 

I feel sure enough that i will be dead a long time before Judgement Day arrives. Then it will be in the hands of Jesus Christ as to if i get a resurrection or not.  And I cannot imagine that people will be resurrected just to be punished. 

And your comment  " Is telling people the truth, bullying, "  . JW's don't know the truth as they keep changing their ideas to suit themselves.

JW's worship their GB by accepting everything the GB say. The Elders worship their GB by doing everything their GB tells them to do, without asking questions and without conscience or moral thoughts.

And once again i say, your GB have no authority from God or from Jesus Christ. Your GB are false prophets and fake 'slaves'.

They have proved themselves false and fake by their words and deeds.

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1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Think about Srecko. Can your thought be expressed with secular authority? Can you defy your own government? What will happen if you didn't comply with your local laws? If nothing happens, let me know where you live, I would love a place that anyone can pick and choose, be good or bad at will. The last place that was that way was called Sodom and Gomorra. But, I believe angels destroyed them, not just for not obeying God's will, but the debauchery that was going on. Was lot knocking on doors or telling people in the streets, they should obey God?

 

So, how would you handle that? What kind of authority would be suitable to maintain Christian ethics to its highest standard? By confronting those taking the lead? Thinking you know better than they do? Do you have a higher moral standard? What would satisfy this theme of NOT obligated or should disagree? Remember, those in authority are tools and are an extension of God's sovereignty. When they go bad, they get the same justice as any other Christian, would.

Dear Billy, If you are JW member you already know the answer on this, that was given not only by JW but also by other kind of people (religious and non religious people) who rejecting/ed to obey something that is violate their conscience or moral standards. Some would call this act as civil disobedience. 

If you are JW member perhaps you done this also, or at least you know someone from your worldwide brotherhood who has done this and disobeyed secular authority on some issue (WTJWORG publications wrote about).  

Your question addressed to me on this issue, and in this way is out of power, it is mishit . :))

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2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Remember, those in authority are tools and are an extension of God's sovereignty. When they go bad, they get the same justice as any other Christian, would.

If you are on some leading position in JW congregation do you believe how your appointment was made by holy spirit? Do you believe that all your words and deeds are in line with holy spirit?

If you do believe such thing, that is your free will and right. 

 

If JW member want to believe that you are "gift" given by god and to obey you and what you talking to them, that is their free will and right.

 

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25 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Whose we. Do you mean, opposers. You certainly don’t mean witnesses. What positive views does an opposer offer? Can they offer a better understanding of scripture? Can they offer a better moral Christian life? Therefore, educate yourself on what a Christian is, and should be. If you’re going to give examples and excuses with justifications, I’ve heard those from a self-appointed anointed one that lacks the same biblical education you hold. Therefore, JW’s don’t need garbage or tainted scriptural understanding.

 

No I don't mean witnesses, I mean everyone. All of us can learn something from others, even if their view is not the same as ours. 

Can they offer a better understanding of scripture? you'd be surprised. 

Can they offer a better moral Christian life? They can, if you are asking about a better scriptural life than jws. Think CSA and reporting ALL criminals to the proper authorities. So certainly they can. 

 

All a person needs to do is listen to the other side before dismissing them based on what the group thinks. Group think is what lemmings do, and right off the cliff they go. ....

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1 minute ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

So, in your mind, JW's are the only one's being plegued by Satan's attack of CSA. Thank's I didn't know that. I'll put that one next to the trash bag. Unitl you can offer a better biblical understanding than Christ, your kind doesn't have anything better to offer. Maybe that's what surprises you.

nope, not anything close to what I said at all. 

Doesn't surprise me that you can't or won't comprehend. 

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On 5/5/2019 at 11:52 AM, JW Insider said:
On 5/5/2019 at 11:01 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

OK, let's get down to basics. what exactly was Anna saying about people that reject the JW Org ?

I'll let her answer that.

What I was saying is that not everyone who has faith in God, is recognized by God as a true worshiper. It is true that ultimately God reads hearts and reads motives, and that we cannot judge anyone, but it is also true that there are many people whose faith is obviously misguided and not in harmony with scripture at all. For example there are those who condone things that God hates and implicitly rejects (eg. practicing homosexuals). Then there are those who have so much faith in God that they will kill thousands of people including themselves, imagining  they have rendered a sacred service to God and will wake up in paradise.

My answer was to" Witness" who suggested that faith in God was enough to please God, and therefor those who leave the org. but still have faith in God are "ok". So I said it's not about the organization as "Witness" sees it. Firstly, the organization is only in place because of the preaching work. I do not know any other establishment, besides Jehovah's Witnesses, all of whose members go out preaching. Secondly, the organization strives to strictly adhere to the scriptures. I do not know any other establishment that does this. Also, as far as I am aware, those who "leave the org." do not continue to preach, and no longer strictly adhere to the scriptures. But, some of those "who leave the org." also come back.

All those reasons you listed John, I can why someone could feel offended by them, but I also know they are arguable, and if anyone wants to learn the facts about these things they can, but many don't.  There are also many that do not see those things you listed as reasons to leave the org. because they have understood the cause of them is not due to maliciousness or evilness, but rather over-eagerness, naivete, over-zealousness, pride, fear, and other human failings that have been written about in the Bible as being possessed by  persons who God viewed favorably, despite those failings. These individuals were chastised for these weaknesses, but they never permanently lost God's favour.

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6 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Well until you do, your right I don't wish to understand your kind. Learn scripture about bad associations and filling your head with nonsense before you consider replying to my post as a professed intellect.

regurgitation from mother wt.  no real thoughts of your own I see. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:
7 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Well until you do, your right I don't wish to understand your kind. Learn scripture about bad associations and filling your head with nonsense before you consider replying to my post as a professed intellect.

regurgitation from mother wt.  no real thoughts of your own I see. 

WDS ... the gift that keeps on giving.

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@Anna I would love to see who you really are, to see you as a person that is so blind to the deliberate faults of JW Org. 

Your long answer is so full of, I think the GB call it garbage. But I'll probs get told off for saying that... 

 It is true that ultimately God reads hearts and reads motives, and that we cannot judge anyone,

Well it's good that Jesus Christ read the heart of Saul, when Saul was persecuting the early Christians isn't it ? Otherwise the Apostle Paul would not have existed.  

Quote " For example there are those who condone things that God hates and implicitly rejects (eg. practicing homosexuals). "

I see you didn't mention Pedophilia then. You really are blind. 

Quote "Firstly, the organization is only in place because of the preaching work. "

BUT, the message keeps changing to suit the GB and it's writing dept'.  Scripture is deliberately misused to misguide innocent people. The Catholic church is earthwide too with it's false message, so not much difference there. 

Quote "Secondly, the organization strives to strictly adhere to the scriptures."  Anna, wake up, the Org misuses scriptures. 

The 'This Generation' scripture is a great example. The 'Superior Authorities' scripture is another example. Are  you being deliberately blind to all this ? 

Quote "Also, as far as I am aware, those who "leave the org." do not continue to preach, and no longer strictly adhere to the scriptures. "

1. I do not preach anymore because I realise now that i only preached what I was told to preach, and that was not serving God it was serving the JW Org. I am quite prepared to admit that I do not know what 'truth' is, so i would not know what to preach. I truly believe that the scriptures, well the deeper parts thereof, are for the Anointed and that the scripture concerning 'ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew' will take place when God makes it truly known who the Spiritual Jew' really is. 

2. As for 'strictly adhere to the scriptures.'  You are right in my case, but then i was never doing so anyway as I was serving an Organisation, so I was never strictly adhering to scriptures and the Society, GB, JW Org, never did and still do not. 

Quote "There are also many that do not see those things you listed as reasons to leave the org. "

That is because those people serve the Org as their god. They do not look for truth, they are just spoonfed and accept it all. Even when the meanings of scriptures are changed by the GB or writing dept', the congregants do not even question it, they dare not for fear of being disfellowshipped. Those poor people do not know any other life, they are trapped inside that giant bubble, and frightened to look for God themselves. They rely on men that are not anointed with Holy Spirit, to guide them. The blind leading the blind, and we know what happens next. 

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19 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I would love a place that anyone can pick and choose, be good or bad at will. The last place that was that way was called Sodom and Gomorra.

That's a very revealing statement about where you would love to live, but it would certainly explain a Lot (and Lot's wife, even more so).

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On 5/6/2019 at 5:59 PM, BillyTheKid46 said:

Ryan uses profanity in his posts. You don’t see the librarian banning him from this forum.

I saw an example of that after Outta Here made a complaint about a post with profanity and I saw a lesser example of his (Ryan's) profanity in the past. I hate to see profanity here too, especially because it pushes people away who might otherwise add something more valuable here.

But there is a big difference between profanity against an ideology and directing profanity at a specific person. For example, you are well aware, I'm sure, that that "Allen Smith" was banned after repeated warnings not about profanities but about wild, raging rants that were directed at specific people. Allen acted the part of a cyber-bully. He was not just judgmental but was threatening. Personally I felt badly for persons who might have felt bullied and threatened, but I also considered that all the persons who participated here had already seen many examples from him, that ranged from pathetic to deranged. Therefore, it was likely understood that his threats were not actually meaningful and they therefore carried more "entertainment" value than anything else.

This is why I was against banning Allen, because I thought it more likely that his readers here were mature enough to see through him. For those who didn't want to be entertained in such a way, they could personally block him. I also thought that some of his ad hominem attacks (against the person instead of attempting to respond to an argument) actually strengthened the other person's argument with Allen inadvertently admitting that he could think of no actual response to the evidence itself.

It was only after the warnings that he would be banned that Allen started using profanities. Allen's surprising profanities may have helped some other people think they understand why he was banned, but they were not the real reason. The real reason was always the bullying, in my opinion. 

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23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

If the Society / GB and all in 'command' had acted in the way that Paul was saying in that 1 Corinthians 9 19-23 scripture, then the Earthwide Child Abuse / Pedophilia  would never have happened.  

You probably know that there were infamous cases of immorality that Paul referred to in his letters even to the very Corinthian congregations that Paul himself had "planted." So it doesn't seem reasonable that if the GB had acted as Paul was saying that Child Abuse / Pedophilia would somehow no longer be a problem.

23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But you seem to see it as just collateral damage, necessary for the 'progress' of the Org.

No, I don't see it as just collateral damage. But when the Org sees it as a problem, I do think it's necessary for its leaders to do all they can to remove it, and "progress" in processes and procedures that can be seen to help eliminate it.

I had said that "the core of the religion itself is one that does perhaps the best job of all religions in fighting the machinations of the Devil" to which you replied:

23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

How can that be so when many of the beliefs are based on lies or misinformation and meanings of scripture constantly change to suit the purpose of the GB ?

You are asking how it can be logical I guess that someone can be right on some things and not on others. I think you probably already know of many examples. Isaac Newton was right on a surprising number of things, but was wrong on some things, too, and only partially right on many things that he could not have been fully aware of at the time, so that he is still considered right for all practical purposes on many of those things. Aristotle, Pythagoras, St. Augustine, Jerome, Attilla the Hun, Martin Luther, Charles Taze Russell, probably even Hitler were both right on things and wrong on things. We remember them for their overall value or detriment to people or societies.

Misinformation reaches us from liars, but usually from people who truly believe the misinformation, even if it does NOT suit their own purposes. Can you imagine that Rutherford really thought he was lying when he predicted that the "Old Testament" princes like Abraham and David would come back in 1925? If so, he was preparing to be made fun of, to be seen as a fool. He evidently even admitted that he had made an a** of himself, according to the Watchtower. That doesn't strike me as trying to suit his own purposes.

23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And you yourself mentioned the Armageddon threats from the Org. When in honesty they have no real idea. They keep moving the goalposts to suit themselves.

Just as with Rutherford, I can't see how it "suits themselves." It's because of misinformation that they have believed for the same reason that we have believed it. GB are chosen not because of their ability to question, but because of their "loyalty." In other words, they are chosen for their reputation of not questioning. But when they get into that position, they realize that questions do come at them that are difficult to answer. Except for the "generation" fiasco, I think most changes since around 2000 or so have been for the better. And the only reason for the "generation" fiasco is the inability to question 1914. It seems like just too much of a coincidence.

23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And also as I've mentioned above the Child Abuse.  

It took a while, but I think they've almost gone as far as they can as of the most recent Watchtower article that covers this topic. It's now just a matter of fully implementing the processes that have been put in place. There is still a matter of compensating for the past, and this is a difficult issue to be discussed elsewhere, I hope.

23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And of course the shunning we will never agree on but we can agree to differ. 

I think we agree completely on shunning. I have no doubt at all that we have been implementing the shunning practice in an unchristian, unscriptural, and unloving manner. I can see our practice as OK from an "OT" perspective, but not at all from a "NT" perspective. If I get in complete trouble with the Org, it will be because I refuse to shun beyond what is written in the scriptures. I am more concerned about being in trouble with Jehovah than with humans in an organization. And even then, if I am shunned, it does not mean that I will shun in return. As far as it depends upon us, we should work what is good toward all, but especially toward those related to us in the faith.

23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And I've only just spotted this "and pointing out the value of Christian morality", now that has to be a joke.

No. Very serious. I think that moral cleanliness is preached correctly, even though we see that there are exceptions to how it is practiced. Many Witnesses lead double lives. Many are involved in adultery, fornication, child sexual abuse, spousal abuse, violence against children, cheating, lying, drugs, etc. But most aren't, and most appreciate the value and reminders we get from the platform. Most of us appreciate the association of like-minded persons who also wish to remain clean. I have heard persons say that they wish they could only hire Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses, one time from a person who didn't know I was a Witness. I know of worldly persons who have come into the congregation to try to find a wife from among JWs, based on admiration of their morals. I would never claim we are more moral than any other group of people. But I think we have the best advantage in terms of an overall call to morality that includes not only personal morality, but a realization that we should not even be tainted by immorality of commercial greed, nationalistic murderous wars, etc.

23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And the "We must question." Really ? and get disfellowshipped for doing so. 

Sure. It might turn out to be a temporary sacrifice for some of us. Some of us might have found ways to question and avoid any consequences. If enough Witnesses perform their Christian duty, however, even a mass of disfellowshippings will automatically produce changes. Open questioning of doctrines at Bethel became common as early as 1974 when it was obvious that 1975 would not likely turn out as Fred Franz had been repeatedly hinting at, even though he didn't predict "1975." (He only predicted what must happen before the 1970's were complete, because of 1975.) Questions became open at Bethel tables, and around Bethel "water coolers" until a crackdown began happening in mid-1978 through 1979. People got dismissed and disfellowshipped in large numbers, but this also resulted in a backlash and exposure of the witch hunting and star-chamber methods. I think the Internet itself is already resulting in a flood of questions all over again that are proving very valuable. It is these that have been been driving many of the new (and better) doctrinal changes since 2000.  

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7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Well it's good that Jesus Christ read the heart of Saul, when Saul was persecuting the early Christians isn't it ? Otherwise the Apostle Paul would not have existed.

Isn't this something we all should remember? 

 

Great point John

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11 hours ago, Anna said:

My answer was to" Witness" who suggested that faith in God was enough to please God, and therefor those who leave the org. but still have faith in God are "ok".

Is that really what I said, Anna?

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Oh @JW Insider it's probably not worth the effort to answer you but I have a bit of time before my darling wife puts my dinner on the table for me.

Let's start with a Quote "You probably know that there were infamous cases of immorality that Paul referred to in his letters even to the very Corinthian congregations that Paul himself had "planted." 

Are look Paul made the immorality known. Whereas, the Elders of the JW congregations hid it all in leters to their HQ and in filing cabinets. Why did the elders hide it ? Because on instructions from the GB. That's why it is all coming into the open now. It follows scripture about 'nothing being hidden that will not be revealed' ...

Quote " But when the Org sees it as a problem, .. "  The Org didn't see it as a problem. It was put 'in their face' by victims of abuse. The problem the GB saw was the cost of the court cases and compensations. 

Why do you use examples of people 'of the world' such as Isaac Newton etc ? They were not 'supposed to be guided by God's Holy Spirit' were they ? 

Your GB pretend to be the 'Faithful and discreet slave' providing the PROPER FOOD at the RIGHT TIME'.  BUT they have to keep changing the food as they give poison instead. So how can they be guided by God to do that ? Do you really think God deliberately misguides His people ? 

Quote "I can't see how it "suits themselves."  The Armageddon threats are obviously to frighten people to get baptised and serve the JW Org. I'm sure we've had quotes on here where the Watchtowers would say the only way to 'get saved' through Armageddon was to be in the Org. More members = more donations.  But then, as with the 7,000 year creative days, it all falls apart and can be seen as lies.  

Quote "the inability to question 1914" ? Are you suggesting more lies ? 

Quote "It's now just a matter of fully implementing the processes that have been put in place." And the two witness rule, what of that ? I'm sure in my own mind that the scripture was not for that use. 

Quote " I  think we agree completely on shunning. I have no doubt at all that we have been implementing the shunning practice in an unchristian, unscriptural, and unloving manner. "

So are we looking at a 100% turnaround on it then ? I very much doubt that.  Remember ,'By their works you will know them'.

Quote " I would never claim we are more moral than any other group of people.".  That's one thing we can agree on then. :) 

But that being the case, thousands of JW's are hypocrites. So it's an unclean Org. 

Quote "If enough Witnesses perform their Christian duty, however, even a mass of disfellowshippings will automatically produce changes. "

I was hoping for a mass 'leaving the JW Org when I left, but it didn't happen. I was hoping that would have produced change.

Enough for now , my wife is calling me to dinner. 

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4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You are asking how it can be logical I guess that someone can be right on some things and not on others. I think you probably already know of many examples. Isaac Newton was right on a surprising number of things, but was wrong on some things,

If you don't mind for my interruption in your's conversation. 

Isaac Newton or other similar person hasn't, as i know, created Organization in which people will worship someone or something. Isaac not made GB of self and few friends of him who interpreted Bible or some other Holy Book.

Religious nation as JW members, expecting more from GB than followers of Isaac would expected from him. Isaac was not made statements how he and his friends are only channel for spiritual food. :))

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Just as with Rutherford, I can't see how it "suits themselves." It's because of misinformation that they have believed for the same reason that we have believed it. GB are chosen not because of their ability to question, but because of their "loyalty."

Saul of Tarsus believed in his strong "misinformation", that was based on Scriptures. He was "chosen" by JHVH for two  task. One task was to persecute Jesus's followers. Second task was that to put Saul under power that will change his "suited misinformation" and his wrong, misdirected "loyalty".  

Would Saul became Paul without his "wrong" way of worshiping? In fact, What was wrong with his faith in God when Scriptures teaches him to be zealous for JHVH name and to excommunicate (prosecute and persecute) all Jew who not worship god according to the Law?  

Dear JW Insider. Can i, by some of your perspective, make conclusion, how GB are in same/similar position and how in their "loyalty" and "misinformation zealous" also making forms of "prosecution and persecution" of those who disagree with the GB Law, because they see how their (god's) Organizing and Interpretations of Divine Will is Process of Rowing to the Some More Perfect and Final Point of worshiping god in the future? 

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I have heard persons say that they wish they could only hire Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses,

This is interesting. I have some specific personal experience about this. In one period of time i was jobless, and working many jobs including gardening. One day (between 2002-2005 i think) sister Tekla, while working on reception desk in Zagreb Betel received telephone call from one woman (Adventist) who are looking for JW who will gardening (shearing the grass and similar) in her garden. Tekla called me and i made phone call to this Lady and was working there for several seasons. Well, this Adventist woman was show more confident in JW than in her brothers from her congregation :))  (A little self praise and humor  - she was lucky that i was that one who get this call from Betel ahahhaha)      

 

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6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Are look Paul made the immorality known. Whereas, the Elders of the JW congregations hid it all in leters to their HQ and in filing cabinets. Why did the elders hide it ? Because on instructions from the GB. That's why it is all coming into the open now. It follows scripture about 'nothing being hidden that will not be revealed'

OK. I see where you are coming from on this now. I don't know that the GB instructed the hiding from authorities and others in the congregation, but they certainly have known about the hiding, and have gone along with it, and could have ordered exposure of the problem instead of continued hiding. (In the past, hiding apparently happened in most, but not in all cases.) From that perspective, exposure of such crimes and sins would undoubtedly have reduced the problem. Especially the problem of repeat offenders. There are some cases that will probably never come to light in this system due to the systemic nature of trying to protect the reputation of an organization and leaders at the expense of protecting children.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Quote " But when the Org sees it as a problem, .. "  The Org didn't see it as a problem. It was put 'in their face' by victims of abuse. The problem the GB saw was the cost of the court cases and compensations.

They were late in their correct responses to this problem, in my opinion, but they do see it as a problem. Even if it's exposure and cost. But I know that many have seen it as a problem of justice for the victims, too. Unfortunately, that had previously been dismissed by some in power as less important.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Why do you use examples of people 'of the world' such as Isaac Newton etc ? They were not 'supposed to be guided by God's Holy Spirit' were they ?

Just an analogy to show how someone can be both right and wrong at the same time.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Your GB pretend to be the 'Faithful and discreet slave' providing the PROPER FOOD at the RIGHT TIME'.  BUT they have to keep changing the food as they give poison instead.

There are huge scriptural problems with this claim of the GB to be the exact and complete fulfillment of the FDS. I've dealt with that elsewhere. But we can't forget that it is a Christian duty to try to feed spiritual food to fellow Christians. The GB truly believe this is their duty and they also know that they are not perfect, and must admit to providing wrong guidance at times and sometimes bad spiritual food, too, in the form of false doctrines and false predictions. They probably thought them right at the time, but you are right, that it was not all 'food at the proper time.' 

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So how can they be guided by God to do that ? Do you really think God deliberately misguides His people ? 

People guided by God have made mistakes in Biblical times, when the very same persons had the privilege of seeing Jesus personally, or were even inspired at other times to write books of the Bible. Yet, the GB make no such claim about themselves that they are inspired in this same way. They feel that intensive Bible study, organizational experience, faith in Jehovah, meditation and prayer will all combine in some spiritual way to guide them. Other people have made claims that they claim inspiration, and the distinction gets blurry. And some Witnesses teach "present" truth as immutable in such a way that they, too, have blurred the distinction. In any case, God is not misguiding. It's just that people are so imperfect that we must learn to trust and obey God as ruler rather than sons of men in whom no salvation belongs.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Quote "the inability to question 1914" ? Are you suggesting more lies ? 

No. The inability to question something is often because something just seems so clear and obvious that we just can't imagine that it could ever be wrong. Or it has been repeated so often that we can't imagine it could be wrong. We don't question things we are "sure" of. It happens to all of us, and then we might be surprised some day to find out we were wrong after all. But by not questioning, we probably will never have to find out.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But that being the case, thousands of JW's are hypocrites. So it's an unclean Org.

So the early Corinthian congregation must also have been an unclean organization. Jesus' organization of his apostles must have been an unclean organization, too.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So are we looking at a 100% turnaround on it then ? I very much doubt that.  Remember ,'By their works you will know them'.

I think it will come close to that. It won't come immediately, but there will be some countries soon, I think, where we won't be allowed to preach unless we stop shunning family members for example. We will agree, and shunning will become a personal, private thing. Most Witnesses don't want to shun, we just do it because we are told it is loving. When there is no longer any threat of getting in trouble for not shunning, most of us will see that it is more loving not to shun. The change will happen organically from that point.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Enough for now , my wife is calling me to dinner.

Food at the proper time.

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Well, this Adventist woman was show more confident in JW than in her brothers from her congregation :))

That experience could be used at the next convention. Of course, it could be for other reasons. I know some Witnesses here who don't want other Witnesses doing their lawns and landscaping out of concern for privacy among the friends, or just to avoid business dealings and potential misunderstandings. We also had a brother in our congregation who ran a gas station only a quarter mile from the KH, and he was so taken advantage of that an announcement had to be made from the platform that brothers should pay their debts and not expect credit when doing business with fellow Witnesses.

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I had a Brother call me up at 7:30 in the morning, many years ago, asking in desperate need if I had any money I could lend him.  I checked my resources, and told him I had $4.00, which I was planning to use for lunch money that day, but he was welcome to that.

...... and he hung up on me.

That hamburger at lunch was especially delicious !

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BillyTheKid46:

I have somewhere in my 12TB array of 4TB USB hard drives documents from the WT that prove all the assertions you deny here and now. In about two days time I could find, correlate and present them to you .... but in the meantime my recollections only will have to give testimony that you are suffering from a major case of agenda driven WDS .

Since you are a Jehovah's Witness in good standing, I will give you a 20% discount to search for them, print them out for you and mail them to you .... after your check clears the bank.

My usual rate is $105 an hour, and I would need a two day's retainer to get started.  I would refund any funds not used.

Care to put your money where your mouth is?

 

 

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19 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

deliberate faults of JW Org. 

Whether this is deliberate or not is a matter of opinion of course. In any case, I would hesitate to say that anyone makes deliberate mistakes unless they are truly evil. So you are suggesting that the GB are evil. Well, I do not think they are evil.

19 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Quote " For example there are those who condone things that God hates and implicitly rejects (eg. practicing homosexuals). "

I see you didn't mention Pedophilia then. You really are blind. 

No one condones Pedophilia.

19 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

That is because those people serve the Org as their god. They do not look for truth, they are just spoonfed and accept it all. Even when the meanings of scriptures are changed by the GB or writing dept', the congregants do not even question it, they dare not for fear of being disfellowshipped. Those poor people do not know any other life, they are trapped inside that giant bubble, and frightened to look for God themselves. They rely on men that are not anointed with Holy Spirit, to guide them. The blind leading the blind, and we know what happens next. 

You make very general sweeping statements here about what and how Witnesses believe. Most of the Witnesses I know (I would say 99.9%) have a deep and private relationship with God themselves, with Jesus as their mediator. It must be just your idea to somehow involve a third party, the GB,  in this relationship. I do not know anyone who does that!

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2 hours ago, Anna said:

It must be just your idea to somehow involve a third party, the GB,  in this relationship

That seems to be the trouble with those who apostatize in this manner. They were idolators themselves, but having realised it, they just can't come clean and admit it, they have to accuse everyone else in the organisation they have now renounced of the very practice they themselves engaged in.

They turn themselves into "once-duped" but now "enlightened"victims to gain sympathy and acclaim from their newfound peers. Their self-appointed crusade might provide some temporary relief for the resentment and embarrassment they feel, but needs constant repetition.  

The sad thing is that they think they left the organisation they now oppose. But, actually, they were rejected. :(

1John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out so that it might be shown that not all are of our sort."

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5 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

James Thomas Rook Jr

It might be you have about 2TB’s of false allegations and speculations marred with personal assumptions. The same kind of stored information by dimwitted apostates.

However, I wouldn’t allow such a damaged person mail what would be clearly tainted material without the option of a refund.

But if you wish to take the challenge JWinsider, AKA TrueTom, I will go one step further to allow a secular court deliberate on such a matter with your supplied information. However, If the evidence does not satisfy the court, I will compel the court to charge you personally.

Care to take the Challenge?

Therefore, In God I trust, and slanders go to jail.

Spoken like a true arrogant WT lawyer .... or Gerritt Losch.

The bottom line is, you said NO, to my challenge.

 

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1 hour ago, Outta Here said:

That seems to be the trouble with those who apostatize in this manner. They were idolators themselves, but having realised it, they just can't come clean and admit it, they have to accuse everyone else in the organisation they have now renounced of the very practice they themselves engaged in.

They turn themselves into "once-duped" but now "enlightened"victims to gain sympathy and acclaim from their newfound peers. Their self-appointed crusade might provide some temporary relief for the resentment and embarrassment they feel, but needs constant repetition.  

The sad thing is that they think they left the organisation they now oppose. But, actually, they were rejected. :(

1John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out so that it might be shown that not all are of our sort."

Well if you put it like that @Outta Here I suppose I went out from JW Org because I'm not a Pedophilie and I don't condone Pedophilia, so I proved that I an not of that 'sort'.  Your quote of scripture not mine. 

As for me being an 'idolator' and then realising it, you are right. Exactly right. I did serve the JW Org as I thought it had 'truth'. But now having studied the bible myself without the misguidance of the JW Org, I see through the veneer of the GB domination. @JW Insider has just confirmed much of what I believe about the GB and it's Org. @James Thomas Rook Jr. says he has proof of same, if he is being serious. 

Actually i have 'come clean' about it many times on this forum. Maybe you don't read many of my posts.

However, I always think of Saul that thought he was doing right until Jesus showed him what was really right.  Saul would never have become Paul without guidance from Jesus Christ.  Maybe, just maybe, Jesus sees those in JW Org that think they are doing right but are doing wrong,  then maybe Jesus shows them the right way. Maybe Jesus will help people to leave the JW Org and to find the right way to serve God. I haven't given up hope In God through Christ. 

Quoter "some temporary relief for the resentment and embarrassment they feel,"   Do you really think the Apostle Paul felt that ? Look how off track Paul was, but Jesus guided him in the right direction. Do you think Paul was embarrassed ? I think Paul was too busy doing God's will to be concerned for his own embarrassment.  I'm also too busy to be embarrassed. 

Oh by the way the scripture you have used doesn't match the purpose you had for it. 

: "They went out from us ... But they went out  ...   Does not  = But, actually, they were rejected 

To leave of one's own accord is not being discarded or rejected, it is LEAVING OF ONE'S OWN ACCORD. :) :) 

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5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Look how off track Paul was, but Jesus guided him in the right direction.

 You surely don't compare your situation with that of Paul's conversion to Christianity do you? Is that the result of your "having studied the bible" yourself? The only similarity apparent is what Jesus said at Acts 26:14.

I think you will find that those who "go out" from the Christian congregation due to being of the "wrong sort" actualy fit the description of those in Jesus' illustration of the dragnet as "unsuitable fish" (wrong sort). They are thrown out by the angels, regardless of any illusion they might have of leaving of their own volition.

But then of course, as to an individual judgement of such ones, jthe final estimation  of their actual worth lies with Jehovah and the man he has appointed. With the right heart, they can still return if they become the right sort. (Of course, even that is by Jehovah's permission as it is he that "draws" men to Christ).

However you want to view it, you are not of our sort at present, and the generally patronising tone and insulting content of these postings you make suggest a heart that is abundant in rather unpleasant things at the moment. You and your former congregation are better off the way things are currently. Likely. the same applies to the video makers in the original posting.

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18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

They feel that intensive Bible study, organizational experience, faith in Jehovah, meditation and prayer will all combine in some spiritual way to guide them.

This is very good sentence, from which i read next: 

All and every moment of efforts numbered here (intensive Bible study, organizational experience, faith in Jehovah, meditation and prayer) reveals one side - human efforts, to gain, what? ....these things are combination of preconditions, causes that will, supposedly,  result in spiritual guidance (from above). 

What i see here is, only/solely working (almost fleshly) efforts of particular human who strive to get, to receive something divinely, spiritually from God, by deeds, by work (aka intensive bible study, more preaching, more meetings etc).

What is omitted in this sentence (not by purpose and not from you personally) but by common/general view in WT organization is the role of Second Part in this "equation". Influence and power that depend of that very Person who is The Source of spiritual guidance.   

Pushing made by/from WTJWORG  how person must and have to do this and that and to do it more and more, is something that can be obstacle, dam, close door for Divine Power. Yes, Divine Power destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah or Jericho Walls, BUT it can be very "Powerless" to change human minds and hearts. Because in case of Sodom and Jericho we talking about Naked Power. But when people are involved, this Spirit Force is on Next Level, in my opinion, on level of soft, gently, unobtrusively, discretely actions and effects...... After all, JHVH ask, plead for love by your free will.

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15 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I had a Brother call me up at 7:30 in the morning, many years ago, asking in desperate need if I had any money I could lend him.  I checked my resources, and told him I had $4.00, which I was planning to use for lunch money that day, but he was welcome to that.

...... and he hung up on me.

That hamburger at lunch was especially delicious !

This is wide problem, lending/borrow money to brotherhood.

I know at least three cases how JW people not return money to those JW who borrow them money.

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7 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

James Thomas Rook Jr

By not answering, you are declining my offer, in essence saying you won't accept my challenge, so what’s the difference in that puzzled mind of yours. However, I didn’t say no, I declined your offer under the terms you gave. Why flush good money down the toilet. Knows that’s the difference in arrogance.

Do you have a humorless cartoon to go along with your evasiveness?

You crack me up Billy. The level in which you interact with others is very telling. 

 

Also, it doesn't hurt my feelings if you down vote my posts. It actually makes me smile..........because you read it. 

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36 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Who are these people but a bunch of flakes like you? So what have they actually confirmed in your puzzled mind? They don't speak for the Watchtower. In their hearts, they are not affiliated to the Watchtower. They speak in the same respect as apostates. Therefore, what possible thing can they prove aside to confirm how inadequate you are in understanding scripture? The GB didn't teach you to apply scripture by their standards. They taught you through others to apply scripture by Christ standards,

 

Therefore, what have you taught yourself by learning scripture on your own? To be foolish and an apostate? You really taught yourself something. How embarrassing it will be when someone wants to use somebody like you in a court of law as a witness. It is going to be very easy to prove your personal bias and mental state.

 

Is this really the best you can come up with child ? Oh it's kid isn't it, well same thing. 

The GB wouldn't know Christ's standards if he punched them on the nose.  Once again you worship your GB. 

What have i taught myself ? Well I've taught myself that honesty is important to God even though your GB don't think it is. 

I've taught myself that just as Christ values people's lives and cares about them, then so should I, even if your GB doesn't care about people but only cares about themselves and the business / JW Org. 

I've taught myself not to fear men, even though the Elders of JW  congregations try to 'lord it over them' and to bully the congregants.

I've taught myself to think for myself instead of just being a puppet to the GB and it's Org like you are. 

But you are a blind worshipper of the GB, so there is no point talking sense to you as you cannot understand it. 

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10 hours ago, Outta Here said:

The sad thing is that they think they left the organisation they now oppose. But, actually, they were rejected. :(

 

Those who leave the organization to follow only the Father and Christ, are then labeled as rejected.  They found the “fruit”/teachings to be rotten.  The leaving happens before the rejection, which Jesus stated would occur to those who turned to him.  Matt 7:15-20; John 15:20; Matt 5:11,12

John 16:2 – “They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.”

“out of the synagogues” – “excluded from sacred assemblies of Israelites, excommunicated”

Matt 10:18 – “You will be brought before governors (GB) and kings (elders) for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.”

10 hours ago, Outta Here said:

1John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out so that it might be shown that not all are of our sort."

So, who “went out” from among who, to being with?  John is speaking of the presence of the “antichrist”.  He leads off by saying,

 “Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that theAntichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.” 1 John 2:18

The first “antichrist” in the Jewish system was the rule of the Pharisees.  They rejected Christ and had him killed by Gentiles.  We have another prophetic “Jewish” system intact right now – the organization, led by those who reject Christ.  How do we know they reject him although they speak about him?  One way of knowing, is simply because the organization “excommunicates” those anointed in Christ and all believers of Christ, which gives proof of the presence of another antichrist.  They realize that an “organization” steeped in the traditions of men is not SALVATION.  They realize that there is “no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”  Acts 4:12

The other validation of the organization as the antichrist, which is “lawlessness” against the law of God fulfilled in Christ, is the given power of the elders over the “saints”/anointed priesthood, who are the Temple of God. Matt 24:48-51; Ezek 44:6-9;2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1,2; 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:19-22

The Pharisees rejected the new “Temple” God was building. John 2:19-22  The GB rejects the “living stones” of that Temple built on Christ, because the GB has established their own “temple”, which is the organization.  The rejection of the priesthood is not only inside but outside the organization.    The Pharisees held on to the old structure of worship, and it was destroyed.  The organization demands obedience to its fabricated structure of worship, and according to Revelation, it too, will be destroyed. Rev 13:4,5-8; Rev 19:20

The scriptures are like a puzzle that when joined together, give us evidence of this happening as John said, at the last hour. 

 “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrinebut according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 2 Tim 4:3,4

Those who “went out from us” are those from the anointed Body of Christ who “maligned the way of  truth”.  As all anointed are, they were tested by Satan and took up his offer to dominate their brothers in Christ.  Luke 22:31; 4:5-7; Mat 24:48-51   They fell from God’s favor and pursued the riches of this world.  Rev 8:10,11; Heb 12:14-17  Satan, now has his out to build his deception which captured all anointed with bits of truth.  2 Thess 2:9-12

“But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction [

    Hello guest!
]does not slumber.”  2 Pet 2:1-3

In verse 3 - Through, “greedy desire to have more, covetousness, avarice”, “shall they with “fictitious” words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.”

Paul tells the anointed ones:

“Beware lest anyone cheat you ("exploits" you, "make merchandise of you") through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to ChristFor in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.”  Col 2:8

This is what Revelation reveals, the true identity of the “antichrist”/”man of lawlessness” which is the elder body of the organization, “exalting itself” over the Temple, and “sitting”/ruling/judging the anointed priests.  This is presently directed by the “false prophet”. 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 13:1,11,13-17

“The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send (“to bid a thing to be carried to one”)  them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."  2 Thess 2:9-12

We “fall” into this deceptive rule by men, by the “edge of the sword” – God’s word of truth ,used as bait.  Heb 4:12   As true to prophesy, the anointed are now “captive” among the nations of people from all over the world. This "camp of saints" is surrounded, captive to Watchtower's "empty philosophy".   Rev 16:13-16; 20:9 On the other hand,  they are also dispersed, not allowed to be unified under their one Head, Jesus Christ. Joel 3:2 This captivity to “empty philosophy”, affects all JWs.  The anointed are now “trampled” by uncircumcised “Gentiles”/elders who rule over them.  It is this “man of lawlessness” that rejects them, by spiritually “killing” them.  Rev 13:15

Those who are rejected/excommunicated from the "synagogues" by the "man of lawlessness" are not the ones who speak against Christ, but on behalf of him.

 24 "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”  Luke 21:24

It is the divisive sword that discerns each heart’s love, for either truth or lies.  Rev 13:10  Truth is not found in half-truths spoken by men.  It is found “outside” the camp where those who follow Christ suffer “disgrace” put upon them by their own people.  They “seek the city to come”, not putting their faith in  “Jehovah’s organization” – a “continuing city”  that is full of blasphemy in every definition of the word, just as the early Jewish system had become in Jesus’ day.  Heb 13:12-14

 I wish JWs would reject living in blasphemy.  To make this “tribulating” decision of either keeping the life one loves under false circumstances, or being rejecting and finding peace and truth from Christ, is the essence the great tribulation/Armageddon.  Matt 16:25

 

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’  Matt 7:21-23

 

 

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I am a self-proclaimed Barbarian, as I have stated many dozens of times here on the Archive, and in every day life.

12 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

What does that picture say about James? Where’s that witted sarcasm of your, for James Thomas Rook Jr.

It would not bother me in the least to put someone's head on a pole if I found them mistreating puppies.

The ONLY thing that keeps me in check is being one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

... this is where you look behind you and laugh, nervously.

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49 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I am a self-proclaimed Barbarian, as I have stated many dozens of times here on the Archive, and in every day life.

It would not bother me in the least to put someone's head on a pole if I found them mistreating puppies.

The ONLY thing that keeps me in check is being one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

... this is where you look behind you and laugh, nervously.

What about if they were mistreating CHILDREN ?  

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Who said:

"I do feel a bit foolish having wasted years of my life believing all of it's lies and deceit, but I congratulate myself for not being frightened to ask questions and do research for myself." 

Who said: 

"They turn themselves into "once-duped" but now "enlightened"victims to gain sympathy and acclaim from their newfound peers."

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9 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

You should be able to see me laughing my head off in youtube soon James, keep writing like this, and by tomorrow it should be there. 

Unfortunately, even with your offered incentive, I cannot write like you do, Billy.

My world view is not skewed by agenda driven WDS.

If you do laugh your head off, you will need a neck funnel to eat.

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9 hours ago, Outta Here said:

Who said:

"I do feel a bit foolish having wasted years of my life believing all of it's lies and deceit, but I congratulate myself for not being frightened to ask questions and do research for myself." 

Who said: 

"They turn themselves into "once-duped" but now "enlightened"victims to gain sympathy and acclaim from their newfound peers."

At least I'm facing the truth of what happened, whilst you are still hiding behind the GB lies. 

Maybe that just means i am mentally / emotionally stronger that you are.  I don't need that crutch any more. 

As for having 'new found peers', do I ? I don't think so. However you seem to think you know better. 

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2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

However, if I have a neck funeral to eat, it will be with knowing people like you, apostates will not be in this earth to continue that apostasy after judgment day.

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Therefore, it certainly will be comfort food that I’ll be tasting.

You have taste buds in your laughed-off head decapitated funnel-fed  throat?

WOW!  -- The mental image of that is just staggering to behold!

.... if someone pours soapy water down your funnel ... can you blow bubbles?

Now THERE is a YouTube Video I would pay $2.99 to see!

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