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A CIRCUIT OVERSEER STATES, "YOUR FAITH IS GARBAGE AND NEEDS TO BE TORN DOWN"

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1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Think about Srecko. Can your thought be expressed with secular authority? Can you defy your own government? What will happen if you didn't comply with your local laws? If nothing happens, let me know where you live, I would love a place that anyone can pick and choose, be good or bad at will. The last place that was that way was called Sodom and Gomorra. But, I believe angels destroyed them, not just for not obeying God's will, but the debauchery that was going on. Was lot knocking on doors or telling people in the streets, they should obey God?

 

So, how would you handle that? What kind of authority would be suitable to maintain Christian ethics to its highest standard? By confronting those taking the lead? Thinking you know better than they do? Do you have a higher moral standard? What would satisfy this theme of NOT obligated or should disagree? Remember, those in authority are tools and are an extension of God's sovereignty. When they go bad, they get the same justice as any other Christian, would.

Dear Billy, If you are JW member you already know the answer on this, that was given not only by JW but also by other kind of people (religious and non religious people) who rejecting/ed to obey something that is violate their conscience or moral standards. Some would call this act as civil disobedience. 

If you are JW member perhaps you done this also, or at least you know someone from your worldwide brotherhood who has done this and disobeyed secular authority on some issue (WTJWORG publications wrote about).  

Your question addressed to me on this issue, and in this way is out of power, it is mishit . :))

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2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Remember, those in authority are tools and are an extension of God's sovereignty. When they go bad, they get the same justice as any other Christian, would.

If you are on some leading position in JW congregation do you believe how your appointment was made by holy spirit? Do you believe that all your words and deeds are in line with holy spirit?

If you do believe such thing, that is your free will and right. 

 

If JW member want to believe that you are "gift" given by god and to obey you and what you talking to them, that is their free will and right.

 

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7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Thanks. I have already done so from the first day you took up this last alias. But it does make it a bit easier to refer to you again, Allen.

Okay, True Tom, you keep thinking it. I'm honored 😉

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4 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Opposing views are an excellent way for one to reflect on the position we hold. If someone gives us something we've never thought of, it could actually open our eyes to a different view, but we must first be willing to listen. 

And what should I educate myself on in regards to this? Please tell me, so I can be educated. 

Whose we. Do you mean, opposers. You certainly don’t mean witnesses. What positive views does an opposer offer? Can they offer a better understanding of scripture? Can they offer a better moral Christian life? Therefore, educate yourself on what a Christian is, and should be. If you’re going to give examples and excuses with justifications, I’ve heard those from a self-appointed anointed one that lacks the same biblical education you hold. Therefore, JW’s don’t need garbage or tainted scriptural understanding.

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3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Are you actually a Jehovah's Witness ? I'm beginning to think not

Quote "There are several reasons why a person would go directly to hell do not pass; go "

More than you’ll know, but I guess your kind of intelligence doesn’t support a hypnotical gesture.  Therefore, tell the world how you are a “bully” also, and stop your whining about feeling hurt just because you thought a friend that supported your views all of a sudden, made a truthful observation on how the ORG is far more structured than you ever gave it credit for, since your deeds are false and fake.

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3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Dear Billy, If you are JW member you already know the answer on this, that was given not only by JW but also by other kind of people (religious and non religious people) who rejecting/ed to obey something that is violate their conscience or moral standards. Some would call this act as civil disobedience. 

Do you think, Jesus didn’t know how wrong the Pharisees were?

How would you apply your understanding to that of scripture? You are trying to justify what you clearly aren’t understanding.

Did, God intend to have his followers apply good Christian values regardless if a government was good or bad? Or is just a made up story in scripture?

Matthew 23:3

3So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

civil.jpg

Under what category would civil disobedience fall under by applying Bible Principle, that people can justify going against scripture to make excuses to satisfy their personal desire.

Therefore, you tell me how anyone can be disobedient and be a Christian at the same time. give me a point in scripture where we can justify that conduct. Remember, without excuses and justifications.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Whose we. Do you mean, opposers. You certainly don’t mean witnesses. What positive views does an opposer offer? Can they offer a better understanding of scripture? Can they offer a better moral Christian life? Therefore, educate yourself on what a Christian is, and should be. If you’re going to give examples and excuses with justifications, I’ve heard those from a self-appointed anointed one that lacks the same biblical education you hold. Therefore, JW’s don’t need garbage or tainted scriptural understanding.

 

No I don't mean witnesses, I mean everyone. All of us can learn something from others, even if their view is not the same as ours. 

Can they offer a better understanding of scripture? you'd be surprised. 

Can they offer a better moral Christian life? They can, if you are asking about a better scriptural life than jws. Think CSA and reporting ALL criminals to the proper authorities. So certainly they can. 

 

All a person needs to do is listen to the other side before dismissing them based on what the group thinks. Group think is what lemmings do, and right off the cliff they go. ....

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3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If you are on some leading position in JW congregation do you believe how your appointment was made by holy spirit? Do you believe that all your words and deeds are in line with holy spirit?

If you do believe such thing, that is your free will and right. 

Where does it state in scripture once you take the lead, you inherited perfection? This means you need to look at yourself under a microscope before you decide to criticize others.

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9 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Can they offer a better moral Christian life? They can, if you are asking about a better scriptural life than jws. Think CSA and reporting ALL criminals to the proper authorities. So certainly they can. 

So, in your mind, JW's are the only ones being plagued by Satan's attack of CSA. Thank's I didn't know that. I'll put that one next to the trash bag. Until you can offer a better biblical understanding than Christ, your kind doesn't have anything better to offer. Maybe that's what surprises you.

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1 minute ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

So, in your mind, JW's are the only one's being plegued by Satan's attack of CSA. Thank's I didn't know that. I'll put that one next to the trash bag. Unitl you can offer a better biblical understanding than Christ, your kind doesn't have anything better to offer. Maybe that's what surprises you.

nope, not anything close to what I said at all. 

Doesn't surprise me that you can't or won't comprehend. 

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1 minute ago, Shiwiii said:

nope, not anything close to what I said at all. 

Doesn't surprise me that you can't or won't comprehend.

Well until you do, your right I don't wish to understand your kind. Learn scripture about bad associations and filling your head with nonsense before you consider replying to my post as a professed intellect.

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On 5/5/2019 at 11:52 AM, JW Insider said:
On 5/5/2019 at 11:01 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

OK, let's get down to basics. what exactly was Anna saying about people that reject the JW Org ?

I'll let her answer that.

What I was saying is that not everyone who has faith in God, is recognized by God as a true worshiper. It is true that ultimately God reads hearts and reads motives, and that we cannot judge anyone, but it is also true that there are many people whose faith is obviously misguided and not in harmony with scripture at all. For example there are those who condone things that God hates and implicitly rejects (eg. practicing homosexuals). Then there are those who have so much faith in God that they will kill thousands of people including themselves, imagining  they have rendered a sacred service to God and will wake up in paradise.

My answer was to" Witness" who suggested that faith in God was enough to please God, and therefor those who leave the org. but still have faith in God are "ok". So I said it's not about the organization as "Witness" sees it. Firstly, the organization is only in place because of the preaching work. I do not know any other establishment, besides Jehovah's Witnesses, all of whose members go out preaching. Secondly, the organization strives to strictly adhere to the scriptures. I do not know any other establishment that does this. Also, as far as I am aware, those who "leave the org." do not continue to preach, and no longer strictly adhere to the scriptures. But, some of those "who leave the org." also come back.

All those reasons you listed John, I can why someone could feel offended by them, but I also know they are arguable, and if anyone wants to learn the facts about these things they can, but many don't.  There are also many that do not see those things you listed as reasons to leave the org. because they have understood the cause of them is not due to maliciousness or evilness, but rather over-eagerness, naivete, over-zealousness, pride, fear, and other human failings that have been written about in the Bible as being possessed by  persons who God viewed favorably, despite those failings. These individuals were chastised for these weaknesses, but they never permanently lost God's favour.

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6 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Well until you do, your right I don't wish to understand your kind. Learn scripture about bad associations and filling your head with nonsense before you consider replying to my post as a professed intellect.

regurgitation from mother wt.  no real thoughts of your own I see. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:
7 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Well until you do, your right I don't wish to understand your kind. Learn scripture about bad associations and filling your head with nonsense before you consider replying to my post as a professed intellect.

regurgitation from mother wt.  no real thoughts of your own I see. 

WDS ... the gift that keeps on giving.

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@Anna I would love to see who you really are, to see you as a person that is so blind to the deliberate faults of JW Org. 

Your long answer is so full of, I think the GB call it garbage. But I'll probs get told off for saying that... 

 It is true that ultimately God reads hearts and reads motives, and that we cannot judge anyone,

Well it's good that Jesus Christ read the heart of Saul, when Saul was persecuting the early Christians isn't it ? Otherwise the Apostle Paul would not have existed.  

Quote " For example there are those who condone things that God hates and implicitly rejects (eg. practicing homosexuals). "

I see you didn't mention Pedophilia then. You really are blind. 

Quote "Firstly, the organization is only in place because of the preaching work. "

BUT, the message keeps changing to suit the GB and it's writing dept'.  Scripture is deliberately misused to misguide innocent people. The Catholic church is earthwide too with it's false message, so not much difference there. 

Quote "Secondly, the organization strives to strictly adhere to the scriptures."  Anna, wake up, the Org misuses scriptures. 

The 'This Generation' scripture is a great example. The 'Superior Authorities' scripture is another example. Are  you being deliberately blind to all this ? 

Quote "Also, as far as I am aware, those who "leave the org." do not continue to preach, and no longer strictly adhere to the scriptures. "

1. I do not preach anymore because I realise now that i only preached what I was told to preach, and that was not serving God it was serving the JW Org. I am quite prepared to admit that I do not know what 'truth' is, so i would not know what to preach. I truly believe that the scriptures, well the deeper parts thereof, are for the Anointed and that the scripture concerning 'ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew' will take place when God makes it truly known who the Spiritual Jew' really is. 

2. As for 'strictly adhere to the scriptures.'  You are right in my case, but then i was never doing so anyway as I was serving an Organisation, so I was never strictly adhering to scriptures and the Society, GB, JW Org, never did and still do not. 

Quote "There are also many that do not see those things you listed as reasons to leave the org. "

That is because those people serve the Org as their god. They do not look for truth, they are just spoonfed and accept it all. Even when the meanings of scriptures are changed by the GB or writing dept', the congregants do not even question it, they dare not for fear of being disfellowshipped. Those poor people do not know any other life, they are trapped inside that giant bubble, and frightened to look for God themselves. They rely on men that are not anointed with Holy Spirit, to guide them. The blind leading the blind, and we know what happens next. 

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19 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I would love a place that anyone can pick and choose, be good or bad at will. The last place that was that way was called Sodom and Gomorra.

That's a very revealing statement about where you would love to live, but it would certainly explain a Lot (and Lot's wife, even more so).

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On 5/6/2019 at 5:59 PM, BillyTheKid46 said:

Ryan uses profanity in his posts. You don’t see the librarian banning him from this forum.

I saw an example of that after Outta Here made a complaint about a post with profanity and I saw a lesser example of his (Ryan's) profanity in the past. I hate to see profanity here too, especially because it pushes people away who might otherwise add something more valuable here.

But there is a big difference between profanity against an ideology and directing profanity at a specific person. For example, you are well aware, I'm sure, that that "Allen Smith" was banned after repeated warnings not about profanities but about wild, raging rants that were directed at specific people. Allen acted the part of a cyber-bully. He was not just judgmental but was threatening. Personally I felt badly for persons who might have felt bullied and threatened, but I also considered that all the persons who participated here had already seen many examples from him, that ranged from pathetic to deranged. Therefore, it was likely understood that his threats were not actually meaningful and they therefore carried more "entertainment" value than anything else.

This is why I was against banning Allen, because I thought it more likely that his readers here were mature enough to see through him. For those who didn't want to be entertained in such a way, they could personally block him. I also thought that some of his ad hominem attacks (against the person instead of attempting to respond to an argument) actually strengthened the other person's argument with Allen inadvertently admitting that he could think of no actual response to the evidence itself.

It was only after the warnings that he would be banned that Allen started using profanities. Allen's surprising profanities may have helped some other people think they understand why he was banned, but they were not the real reason. The real reason was always the bullying, in my opinion. 

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23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

If the Society / GB and all in 'command' had acted in the way that Paul was saying in that 1 Corinthians 9 19-23 scripture, then the Earthwide Child Abuse / Pedophilia  would never have happened.  

You probably know that there were infamous cases of immorality that Paul referred to in his letters even to the very Corinthian congregations that Paul himself had "planted." So it doesn't seem reasonable that if the GB had acted as Paul was saying that Child Abuse / Pedophilia would somehow no longer be a problem.

23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But you seem to see it as just collateral damage, necessary for the 'progress' of the Org.

No, I don't see it as just collateral damage. But when the Org sees it as a problem, I do think it's necessary for its leaders to do all they can to remove it, and "progress" in processes and procedures that can be seen to help eliminate it.

I had said that "the core of the religion itself is one that does perhaps the best job of all religions in fighting the machinations of the Devil" to which you replied:

23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

How can that be so when many of the beliefs are based on lies or misinformation and meanings of scripture constantly change to suit the purpose of the GB ?

You are asking how it can be logical I guess that someone can be right on some things and not on others. I think you probably already know of many examples. Isaac Newton was right on a surprising number of things, but was wrong on some things, too, and only partially right on many things that he could not have been fully aware of at the time, so that he is still considered right for all practical purposes on many of those things. Aristotle, Pythagoras, St. Augustine, Jerome, Attilla the Hun, Martin Luther, Charles Taze Russell, probably even Hitler were both right on things and wrong on things. We remember them for their overall value or detriment to people or societies.

Misinformation reaches us from liars, but usually from people who truly believe the misinformation, even if it does NOT suit their own purposes. Can you imagine that Rutherford really thought he was lying when he predicted that the "Old Testament" princes like Abraham and David would come back in 1925? If so, he was preparing to be made fun of, to be seen as a fool. He evidently even admitted that he had made an a** of himself, according to the Watchtower. That doesn't strike me as trying to suit his own purposes.

23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And you yourself mentioned the Armageddon threats from the Org. When in honesty they have no real idea. They keep moving the goalposts to suit themselves.

Just as with Rutherford, I can't see how it "suits themselves." It's because of misinformation that they have believed for the same reason that we have believed it. GB are chosen not because of their ability to question, but because of their "loyalty." In other words, they are chosen for their reputation of not questioning. But when they get into that position, they realize that questions do come at them that are difficult to answer. Except for the "generation" fiasco, I think most changes since around 2000 or so have been for the better. And the only reason for the "generation" fiasco is the inability to question 1914. It seems like just too much of a coincidence.

23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And also as I've mentioned above the Child Abuse.  

It took a while, but I think they've almost gone as far as they can as of the most recent Watchtower article that covers this topic. It's now just a matter of fully implementing the processes that have been put in place. There is still a matter of compensating for the past, and this is a difficult issue to be discussed elsewhere, I hope.

23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And of course the shunning we will never agree on but we can agree to differ. 

I think we agree completely on shunning. I have no doubt at all that we have been implementing the shunning practice in an unchristian, unscriptural, and unloving manner. I can see our practice as OK from an "OT" perspective, but not at all from a "NT" perspective. If I get in complete trouble with the Org, it will be because I refuse to shun beyond what is written in the scriptures. I am more concerned about being in trouble with Jehovah than with humans in an organization. And even then, if I am shunned, it does not mean that I will shun in return. As far as it depends upon us, we should work what is good toward all, but especially toward those related to us in the faith.

23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And I've only just spotted this "and pointing out the value of Christian morality", now that has to be a joke.

No. Very serious. I think that moral cleanliness is preached correctly, even though we see that there are exceptions to how it is practiced. Many Witnesses lead double lives. Many are involved in adultery, fornication, child sexual abuse, spousal abuse, violence against children, cheating, lying, drugs, etc. But most aren't, and most appreciate the value and reminders we get from the platform. Most of us appreciate the association of like-minded persons who also wish to remain clean. I have heard persons say that they wish they could only hire Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses, one time from a person who didn't know I was a Witness. I know of worldly persons who have come into the congregation to try to find a wife from among JWs, based on admiration of their morals. I would never claim we are more moral than any other group of people. But I think we have the best advantage in terms of an overall call to morality that includes not only personal morality, but a realization that we should not even be tainted by immorality of commercial greed, nationalistic murderous wars, etc.

23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And the "We must question." Really ? and get disfellowshipped for doing so. 

Sure. It might turn out to be a temporary sacrifice for some of us. Some of us might have found ways to question and avoid any consequences. If enough Witnesses perform their Christian duty, however, even a mass of disfellowshippings will automatically produce changes. Open questioning of doctrines at Bethel became common as early as 1974 when it was obvious that 1975 would not likely turn out as Fred Franz had been repeatedly hinting at, even though he didn't predict "1975." (He only predicted what must happen before the 1970's were complete, because of 1975.) Questions became open at Bethel tables, and around Bethel "water coolers" until a crackdown began happening in mid-1978 through 1979. People got dismissed and disfellowshipped in large numbers, but this also resulted in a backlash and exposure of the witch hunting and star-chamber methods. I think the Internet itself is already resulting in a flood of questions all over again that are proving very valuable. It is these that have been been driving many of the new (and better) doctrinal changes since 2000.  

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    • By The Librarian
      “What Is Truth?”
      THAT question was cynically posed to Jesus by the Roman Governor Pontius Pilate. He was not interested in an answer, and Jesus did not give him one. Perhaps Pilate viewed truth as too elusive to grasp.
      Pilate indifferently rejected the opportunity to learn such truth. What about you?
      Learn more about Jesus Christ:
       
       
    • By Bible Speaks
      25 "Therefore, now that you have put away deceit, each one of you speak truth with his neighbor, because we are members belonging to one another." (Eph.4:25) NWT
      Don't let your ears witness what your eyes didn't see. Don't let your mouth speak what your heart doesn't  feel.    Live a honest life for Jehovah! 

      IMG_8907.mov
    • By Bible Speaks
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. "But we have renounced the shameful, underhanded things, not walking with cunning or adulterating the word of God; but by making the truth manifest, we recommend ourselves to every human conscience in the sight of God."
      (2 Cor. 4:2)

    • By Bible Speaks
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. O Jehovah, who may
             be a guest in your tent?
      Who may reside in your holy mountain?
        Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. The one who is walking faultlessly,
      Practicing what is right
      And speaking the truth in his heart."
                 (Psalm 15:1,2)       Do not let your mouth say       what your heart doesn't feel. 
    • By Bible Speaks
      What Does the Bible Say About Christmas? ???????
      The Bible’s answer
      The Bible does not give the date of Jesus’ birth, nor does it say that we should celebrate his birthday. As McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia states: “The observance of Christmas is not of divine appointment, nor is it of NT [New Testament] origin.” Instead, an examination of the history of Christmas exposes its roots in pagan religious rites. The Bible shows that we offend God if we try to worship him in a way that he does not approve of.—Exodus 32:5-7.  History of Christmas customs
      Celebrating Jesus’ birthday: “The early Christians did not celebrate [Jesus’] birth because they considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom.”—The World Book Encyclopedia.
      •December 25: There is no proof that Jesus was born on that date. Church leaders likely chose this date to coincide with pagan festivals held on or around the winter solstice.
      •Gift-giving, feasting, partying: The Encyclopedia Americana says: “Saturnalia, a Roman feast celebrated in mid-December, provided the model for many of the merry-making customs of Christmas. From this celebration, for example, were derived the elaborate feasting, the giving of gifts, and the burning of candles.” The Encyclopædia Britannica notes that “all work and business were suspended” during Saturnalia.
      •Christmas lights: According to The Encyclopedia of Religion, Europeans decorated their homes “with lights and evergreens of all kinds” to celebrate the winter solstice and to combat evil spirits.
      •Mistletoe, holly: “The Druids ascribed magical properties to the mistletoe in particular. The evergreen holly was worshiped as a promise of the sun’s return.”—The Encyclopedia Americana.
      •Christmas tree: “Tree worship, common among the pagan Europeans, survived after their conversion to Christianity.” One of the ways in which tree worship survived is in the custom of “placing a Yule tree at an entrance or inside the house in the midwinter holidays.”—Encyclopædia Britannica.
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    • By Bible Speaks
      @caribbeangiirll shares with us: “My sister and I are out in service working the territory in Curacao, Netherlands Antilles. It was our first time doing territory work here since both of us were living in Canada and took the truth there. We had so much fun sharing the good news here.”
    • By Bible Speaks
      @almaguers123 from Corpus Christi,Texas, USA shares with us: “Our first part as a family!!! My husband finally made the truth his own and was baptized this year. So happy we almost couldn’t contain ourselves. Thanks to Jehovah’s undeserved kindness we are enjoying many blessings together.” Baptisms Corpus Christi Texas USA
    • By Bible Speaks
      "Ride in the cause of truth and humility."—Ps. 45:4.
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