A CIRCUIT OVERSEER STATES, "YOUR FAITH IS GARBAGE AND NEEDS TO BE TORN DOWN"

[Anna]

Oh my. It seems Billy the Kid's imagination is running away with him!

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

28 minutes ago, Anna said:

Oh my. It seems Billy the Kid's imagination is running away with him!

But hey.... THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT!!

[Shiwiii]

6 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Well until you do, your right I don't wish to understand your kind. Learn scripture about bad associations and filling your head with nonsense before you consider replying to my post as a professed intellect.

regurgitation from mother wt.  no real thoughts of your own I see. 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

6 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

7 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Well until you do, your right I don't wish to understand your kind. Learn scripture about bad associations and filling your head with nonsense before you consider replying to my post as a professed intellect.

regurgitation from mother wt.  no real thoughts of your own I see. 

WDS ... the gift that keeps on giving.

[JOHN BUTLER]

@Anna I would love to see who you really are, to see you as a person that is so blind to the deliberate faults of JW Org. 

Your long answer is so full of, I think the GB call it garbage. But I'll probs get told off for saying that... 

 It is true that ultimately God reads hearts and reads motives, and that we cannot judge anyone,

Well it's good that Jesus Christ read the heart of Saul, when Saul was persecuting the early Christians isn't it ? Otherwise the Apostle Paul would not have existed.  

Quote " For example there are those who condone things that God hates and implicitly rejects (eg. practicing homosexuals). "

I see you didn't mention Pedophilia then. You really are blind. 

Quote "Firstly, the organization is only in place because of the preaching work. "

BUT, the message keeps changing to suit the GB and it's writing dept'.  Scripture is deliberately misused to misguide innocent people. The Catholic church is earthwide too with it's false message, so not much difference there. 

Quote "Secondly, the organization strives to strictly adhere to the scriptures."  Anna, wake up, the Org misuses scriptures. 

The 'This Generation' scripture is a great example. The 'Superior Authorities' scripture is another example. Are  you being deliberately blind to all this ? 

Quote "Also, as far as I am aware, those who "leave the org." do not continue to preach, and no longer strictly adhere to the scriptures. "

1. I do not preach anymore because I realise now that i only preached what I was told to preach, and that was not serving God it was serving the JW Org. I am quite prepared to admit that I do not know what 'truth' is, so i would not know what to preach. I truly believe that the scriptures, well the deeper parts thereof, are for the Anointed and that the scripture concerning 'ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew' will take place when God makes it truly known who the Spiritual Jew' really is. 

2. As for 'strictly adhere to the scriptures.'  You are right in my case, but then i was never doing so anyway as I was serving an Organisation, so I was never strictly adhering to scriptures and the Society, GB, JW Org, never did and still do not. 

Quote "There are also many that do not see those things you listed as reasons to leave the org. "

That is because those people serve the Org as their god. They do not look for truth, they are just spoonfed and accept it all. Even when the meanings of scriptures are changed by the GB or writing dept', the congregants do not even question it, they dare not for fear of being disfellowshipped. Those poor people do not know any other life, they are trapped inside that giant bubble, and frightened to look for God themselves. They rely on men that are not anointed with Holy Spirit, to guide them. The blind leading the blind, and we know what happens next. 

[JW Insider]

19 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I would love a place that anyone can pick and choose, be good or bad at will. The last place that was that way was called Sodom and Gomorra.

That's a very revealing statement about where you would love to live, but it would certainly explain a Lot (and Lot's wife, even more so).

[JW Insider]

On 5/6/2019 at 5:59 PM, BillyTheKid46 said:

Ryan uses profanity in his posts. You don’t see the librarian banning him from this forum.

I saw an example of that after Outta Here made a complaint about a post with profanity and I saw a lesser example of his (Ryan's) profanity in the past. I hate to see profanity here too, especially because it pushes people away who might otherwise add something more valuable here.

But there is a big difference between profanity against an ideology and directing profanity at a specific person. For example, you are well aware, I'm sure, that that "Allen Smith" was banned after repeated warnings not about profanities but about wild, raging rants that were directed at specific people. Allen acted the part of a cyber-bully. He was not just judgmental but was threatening. Personally I felt badly for persons who might have felt bullied and threatened, but I also considered that all the persons who participated here had already seen many examples from him, that ranged from pathetic to deranged. Therefore, it was likely understood that his threats were not actually meaningful and they therefore carried more "entertainment" value than anything else.

This is why I was against banning Allen, because I thought it more likely that his readers here were mature enough to see through him. For those who didn't want to be entertained in such a way, they could personally block him. I also thought that some of his ad hominem attacks (against the person instead of attempting to respond to an argument) actually strengthened the other person's argument with Allen inadvertently admitting that he could think of no actual response to the evidence itself.

It was only after the warnings that he would be banned that Allen started using profanities. Allen's surprising profanities may have helped some other people think they understand why he was banned, but they were not the real reason. The real reason was always the bullying, in my opinion. 

[JW Insider]

23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

If the Society / GB and all in 'command' had acted in the way that Paul was saying in that 1 Corinthians 9 19-23 scripture, then the Earthwide Child Abuse / Pedophilia  would never have happened.  

You probably know that there were infamous cases of immorality that Paul referred to in his letters even to the very Corinthian congregations that Paul himself had "planted." So it doesn't seem reasonable that if the GB had acted as Paul was saying that Child Abuse / Pedophilia would somehow no longer be a problem.

23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But you seem to see it as just collateral damage, necessary for the 'progress' of the Org.

No, I don't see it as just collateral damage. But when the Org sees it as a problem, I do think it's necessary for its leaders to do all they can to remove it, and "progress" in processes and procedures that can be seen to help eliminate it.

I had said that "the core of the religion itself is one that does perhaps the best job of all religions in fighting the machinations of the Devil" to which you replied:

23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

How can that be so when many of the beliefs are based on lies or misinformation and meanings of scripture constantly change to suit the purpose of the GB ?

You are asking how it can be logical I guess that someone can be right on some things and not on others. I think you probably already know of many examples. Isaac Newton was right on a surprising number of things, but was wrong on some things, too, and only partially right on many things that he could not have been fully aware of at the time, so that he is still considered right for all practical purposes on many of those things. Aristotle, Pythagoras, St. Augustine, Jerome, Attilla the Hun, Martin Luther, Charles Taze Russell, probably even Hitler were both right on things and wrong on things. We remember them for their overall value or detriment to people or societies.

Misinformation reaches us from liars, but usually from people who truly believe the misinformation, even if it does NOT suit their own purposes. Can you imagine that Rutherford really thought he was lying when he predicted that the "Old Testament" princes like Abraham and David would come back in 1925? If so, he was preparing to be made fun of, to be seen as a fool. He evidently even admitted that he had made an a** of himself, according to the Watchtower. That doesn't strike me as trying to suit his own purposes.

23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And you yourself mentioned the Armageddon threats from the Org. When in honesty they have no real idea. They keep moving the goalposts to suit themselves.

Just as with Rutherford, I can't see how it "suits themselves." It's because of misinformation that they have believed for the same reason that we have believed it. GB are chosen not because of their ability to question, but because of their "loyalty." In other words, they are chosen for their reputation of not questioning. But when they get into that position, they realize that questions do come at them that are difficult to answer. Except for the "generation" fiasco, I think most changes since around 2000 or so have been for the better. And the only reason for the "generation" fiasco is the inability to question 1914. It seems like just too much of a coincidence.

23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And also as I've mentioned above the Child Abuse.  

It took a while, but I think they've almost gone as far as they can as of the most recent Watchtower article that covers this topic. It's now just a matter of fully implementing the processes that have been put in place. There is still a matter of compensating for the past, and this is a difficult issue to be discussed elsewhere, I hope.

23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And of course the shunning we will never agree on but we can agree to differ. 

I think we agree completely on shunning. I have no doubt at all that we have been implementing the shunning practice in an unchristian, unscriptural, and unloving manner. I can see our practice as OK from an "OT" perspective, but not at all from a "NT" perspective. If I get in complete trouble with the Org, it will be because I refuse to shun beyond what is written in the scriptures. I am more concerned about being in trouble with Jehovah than with humans in an organization. And even then, if I am shunned, it does not mean that I will shun in return. As far as it depends upon us, we should work what is good toward all, but especially toward those related to us in the faith.

23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And I've only just spotted this "and pointing out the value of Christian morality", now that has to be a joke.

No. Very serious. I think that moral cleanliness is preached correctly, even though we see that there are exceptions to how it is practiced. Many Witnesses lead double lives. Many are involved in adultery, fornication, child sexual abuse, spousal abuse, violence against children, cheating, lying, drugs, etc. But most aren't, and most appreciate the value and reminders we get from the platform. Most of us appreciate the association of like-minded persons who also wish to remain clean. I have heard persons say that they wish they could only hire Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses, one time from a person who didn't know I was a Witness. I know of worldly persons who have come into the congregation to try to find a wife from among JWs, based on admiration of their morals. I would never claim we are more moral than any other group of people. But I think we have the best advantage in terms of an overall call to morality that includes not only personal morality, but a realization that we should not even be tainted by immorality of commercial greed, nationalistic murderous wars, etc.

23 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And the "We must question." Really ? and get disfellowshipped for doing so. 

Sure. It might turn out to be a temporary sacrifice for some of us. Some of us might have found ways to question and avoid any consequences. If enough Witnesses perform their Christian duty, however, even a mass of disfellowshippings will automatically produce changes. Open questioning of doctrines at Bethel became common as early as 1974 when it was obvious that 1975 would not likely turn out as Fred Franz had been repeatedly hinting at, even though he didn't predict "1975." (He only predicted what must happen before the 1970's were complete, because of 1975.) Questions became open at Bethel tables, and around Bethel "water coolers" until a crackdown began happening in mid-1978 through 1979. People got dismissed and disfellowshipped in large numbers, but this also resulted in a backlash and exposure of the witch hunting and star-chamber methods. I think the Internet itself is already resulting in a flood of questions all over again that are proving very valuable. It is these that have been been driving many of the new (and better) doctrinal changes since 2000.  

[Shiwiii]

7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Well it's good that Jesus Christ read the heart of Saul, when Saul was persecuting the early Christians isn't it ? Otherwise the Apostle Paul would not have existed.

Isn't this something we all should remember? 

 

Great point John

[Witness]

11 hours ago, Anna said:

My answer was to" Witness" who suggested that faith in God was enough to please God, and therefor those who leave the org. but still have faith in God are "ok".

Is that really what I said, Anna?

[JOHN BUTLER]

Oh @JW Insider it's probably not worth the effort to answer you but I have a bit of time before my darling wife puts my dinner on the table for me.

Let's start with a Quote "You probably know that there were infamous cases of immorality that Paul referred to in his letters even to the very Corinthian congregations that Paul himself had "planted." 

Are look Paul made the immorality known. Whereas, the Elders of the JW congregations hid it all in leters to their HQ and in filing cabinets. Why did the elders hide it ? Because on instructions from the GB. That's why it is all coming into the open now. It follows scripture about 'nothing being hidden that will not be revealed' ...

Quote " But when the Org sees it as a problem, .. "  The Org didn't see it as a problem. It was put 'in their face' by victims of abuse. The problem the GB saw was the cost of the court cases and compensations. 

Why do you use examples of people 'of the world' such as Isaac Newton etc ? They were not 'supposed to be guided by God's Holy Spirit' were they ? 

Your GB pretend to be the 'Faithful and discreet slave' providing the PROPER FOOD at the RIGHT TIME'.  BUT they have to keep changing the food as they give poison instead. So how can they be guided by God to do that ? Do you really think God deliberately misguides His people ? 

Quote "I can't see how it "suits themselves."  The Armageddon threats are obviously to frighten people to get baptised and serve the JW Org. I'm sure we've had quotes on here where the Watchtowers would say the only way to 'get saved' through Armageddon was to be in the Org. More members = more donations.  But then, as with the 7,000 year creative days, it all falls apart and can be seen as lies.  

Quote "the inability to question 1914" ? Are you suggesting more lies ? 

Quote "It's now just a matter of fully implementing the processes that have been put in place." And the two witness rule, what of that ? I'm sure in my own mind that the scripture was not for that use. 

Quote " I  think we agree completely on shunning. I have no doubt at all that we have been implementing the shunning practice in an unchristian, unscriptural, and unloving manner. "

So are we looking at a 100% turnaround on it then ? I very much doubt that.  Remember ,'By their works you will know them'.

Quote " I would never claim we are more moral than any other group of people.".  That's one thing we can agree on then.  

But that being the case, thousands of JW's are hypocrites. So it's an unclean Org. 

Quote "If enough Witnesses perform their Christian duty, however, even a mass of disfellowshippings will automatically produce changes. "

I was hoping for a mass 'leaving the JW Org when I left, but it didn't happen. I was hoping that would have produced change.

Enough for now , my wife is calling me to dinner. 

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You are asking how it can be logical I guess that someone can be right on some things and not on others. I think you probably already know of many examples. Isaac Newton was right on a surprising number of things, but was wrong on some things,

If you don't mind for my interruption in your's conversation. 

Isaac Newton or other similar person hasn't, as i know, created Organization in which people will worship someone or something. Isaac not made GB of self and few friends of him who interpreted Bible or some other Holy Book.

Religious nation as JW members, expecting more from GB than followers of Isaac would expected from him. Isaac was not made statements how he and his friends are only channel for spiritual food. :))

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Just as with Rutherford, I can't see how it "suits themselves." It's because of misinformation that they have believed for the same reason that we have believed it. GB are chosen not because of their ability to question, but because of their "loyalty."

Saul of Tarsus believed in his strong "misinformation", that was based on Scriptures. He was "chosen" by JHVH for two  task. One task was to persecute Jesus's followers. Second task was that to put Saul under power that will change his "suited misinformation" and his wrong, misdirected "loyalty".  

Would Saul became Paul without his "wrong" way of worshiping? In fact, What was wrong with his faith in God when Scriptures teaches him to be zealous for JHVH name and to excommunicate (prosecute and persecute) all Jew who not worship god according to the Law?  

Dear JW Insider. Can i, by some of your perspective, make conclusion, how GB are in same/similar position and how in their "loyalty" and "misinformation zealous" also making forms of "prosecution and persecution" of those who disagree with the GB Law, because they see how their (god's) Organizing and Interpretations of Divine Will is Process of Rowing to the Some More Perfect and Final Point of worshiping god in the future? 

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I have heard persons say that they wish they could only hire Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses,

This is interesting. I have some specific personal experience about this. In one period of time i was jobless, and working many jobs including gardening. One day (between 2002-2005 i think) sister Tekla, while working on reception desk in Zagreb Betel received telephone call from one woman (Adventist) who are looking for JW who will gardening (shearing the grass and similar) in her garden. Tekla called me and i made phone call to this Lady and was working there for several seasons. Well, this Adventist woman was show more confident in JW than in her brothers from her congregation :))  (A little self praise and humor  - she was lucky that i was that one who get this call from Betel ahahhaha)