REPROOF FROM THE PLATFORM

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Billy !

Woooo.... perhaps we actually DO have something in common!   Whooda thunkit!?

.50 cal handgun, or rifle?  What model?  What model .45 ?    Revolver or 1911?

Now you have piqued my interest!

How about a truce to talk about hardware?

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

You have a BMG .50 rifle?  Tell me more!

WOW!

I have a Marlin 30/30 Lever Action with a 1 watt green laser epoxied to the barrel.

A Marlin Papoose .22 cal threaded for my 9mm suppressor, with a 70x zoom scope.

A 9mm Taurus Pistol, also threaded, with  an internal red laser replacing the recoil rod, and a green laser on the bottom rail.

A Marlin 88, 12 gauge, also with a green laser.

Several 38mm pistols of various barrel lengths, all with Crimson Trace red lasers.

and several others...

Do you shoot that .BMG .50 much?   I could not afford the ammo.

I think the ammo for the Desert Eagle is about a dollar a shot, if memory serves.

 

 

 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Well, I do not hunt, so I like lasers so I can get target acquisition without having to bring the weapon up to my face, allowing me to focus on everything that is going on around me. My green lasers are very bright, even in bright daylight.

Yeah, I remember when, about 30 years ago, you could buy an SKS for about $60, all coated in cosmolene.

So... how did you come to acquire the .50 BMG?

The .50 BMG is the bullet on the far left of this photo.

[TrueTomHarley]

9 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Don't get me wrong. I'm not judging. God does that to all of us. What I do is give an honest observation (assessment) on the behavior of others. In my experience with 40 years of human behavior and development, I have seen it all.

You don’t even know that the people you are arguing with are sane. You don’t even know for sure that they are people. Maybe they are bots like those the Russians supposedly employed on social media, so as to get people enraged at each other and then they could say “See how much better our form of government is? We don’t have these kinds of lunatics running around in the wild.”

If you are going to engage with opposers on social media, there are a few points to keep in mind.

1.) you probably shouldn’t.

2.) you will ultimately lose. You must be prepared to yield the final word. This is because they do not give up and the only way you can match that record is to become petulant and argumentative yourself.

3.) you somewhat negate that if you have a huge body of relevant work that you can link to, effectively answering their 50 words with your 1000. It has a way of discouraging trolls. 

4.) You cannot let yourself be goaded. It is your greatest weakness, imo. Sometimes you start out well, but when they talk back (which they will always do) you get madder and madder and MADDER until you leave a trail that, regardless of whether it is true or not, comes across as the very opposite of the way Jesus dealt with people.

5.) You must be like me, who never ever trolls and who merely confines himself to the dignified use of internet resources in search of fatheads to set straight.

Do you find enraged elephants here and think that you have to slay them? Another way to handle enraged elephants is to bury them in an avalanche of other elephants. That is what this forum serves to do. Even regular participants like myself find it impossible to keep up. Even my own stuff penned here I also put on my own blog because that is the only way I can find it again.

If the regulars can’t keep up, who else is going to? If someone says something substantial here or there, it is quickly buried amidst so much crap that it is impossible to find again—nobody but the most resolute nerd would have the patience, and should he find and spotlight it nobody pays any attention to him because he is a resolute nerd and everybody knows it and only other resolute nerds pay any attention to him.

It calls to mind when that pompous scientist/philosopher/cheerleader/atheist Alan H wrote: “I call everyone to witness that TTH has not answered my question.” “It’s just you and me, you idiot,” I retorted. “What! Do you think that you are Clarence Darrow in Inherit the Wind?”

It is inherently easier to defend something you think noble than it is for others to attack it. The benefits of the Christian teachings serve to strengthen resolve and to unbuild one, but what are the benefits to one who would tear it down? “I gotta be MEEEEEE, I gotta be FREEEEEE!!!!” only goes so far. That said, if I thought that my words here were solely for here and only here, I would not be able to motivate myself to write them.

[JOHN BUTLER]

To quote @TrueTomHarley  "The benefits of the Christian teachings serve to strengthen resolve and to unbuild one, .. " 

I think most of us here would agree to that statement. But Tom, there is a massive gap between the Christian teachings, and the JW Org.  Please remember they are two very separate things. 

God's word is available to millions or billions of people earthwide, but not many of them are JW's.  So yes, the Christian teachings are indeed very useful to upbuild and strengthen. 

As for your first sentence. Not one of us is mentally well balanced. Because we are all imperfect. (These guys with a houseful of guns have me worried. I am honestly happy that i live here in England not in the USA.)  But Jesus, or one of the disciples, said about bridling the tongue, and this here forum is just an extension of same.  It proves we are all slightly unbalanced because, 1. We wouldn't waste our time on here, 2, we wouldn't write some of the things we write.  

However Tom, I think you should seriously think about who is an opposer of the GB / JW Org, and, who is an opposer of God's Word. There is a big difference.  I do not oppose God's written word, I just don't understand a lot of it  . 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

31 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“I gotta be MEEEEEE, I gotta be FREEEEEE!!!!” only goes so far.

Antarctica?

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

7 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for your first sentence. Not one of us is mentally well balanced. Because we are all imperfect.

Show me a person who thinks they are  sane, and I will show you a person  who needs their head examined.

[JW Insider]

@JOHN BUTLER,

I see that the news is starting on this so the documentation can't be far behind.

https://ravallirepublic.com/news/state-and-regional/crime-and-courts/article_e20e2330-eeeb-5f0f-a4e8-d8bcbababd85.html

From the 69 page appeal brief from the Watchtower to the Montana Supreme Court it is made fairly clear how the corporations operate from a practical legal perspective.

In this particular case the relevant parties are summarized as WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF NEW YORK, INC.; CHRISTIAN CONGREGATION OF JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES and THOMPSON FALLS CONGREGATION OF JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES, both as appellants and third-party appellants.

All three of these major parties are referred to as "entities associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses."

For legal purposes the brief defines: "Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses (“CCJW”) (a New York nonprofit corporation that assists Jehovah’s Witnesses)." (p.2,3)

and:

"Watchtower (the faith’s New York entity that retains the attorney who gave legal advice to congregation elders)." (p.3)

It is typical in recent lawsuits to treat all Watchtower-related corporate entities as merely "advisors" in support of Jehovah's Witnesses or "the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses." In a larger sense these advisors provide logistical support for assemblies, meetings, property ownership, donation and financial management, preaching, research, writing, printing, and distribution of religious media. Similarly, the Governing Body are also treated as another "entity" of advisors for spiritual guidance that supports the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses.

(To some, this would obviously hearken back to the time under Russell and Rutherford, when the congregations, i.e, "ecclesia" or "companies," were more independent.)

In the brief, the WATCHTOWER is merely treated as the source of legal advice and legal counsel. "[E]lders of a local Montana congregation sought advice from legal counsel to know whether they had a legal duty to report." (p.2)

This recent separation of CCJW from Watchtower of New York and Watch Tower of Pennsylvania has allowed attorneys for the Watchtower to argue that outsiders have mixed them up and therefore made legal errors. For example, from the brief:

The court erroneously held that the attorney in New York violated
Montana’s reporting statute and that Watchtower was vicariously liable. The
court erroneously held that elders at CCJW in New York violated Montana’s
reporting statute and that CCJW was vicariously liable. [emphasis by WTS] p.3

This was considered by the WTS attorney to be a fatal error and therefore could continue:

And even
assuming the attorney who advised congregation elders misinterpreted the
reporting statute, a good-faith misinterpretation of a statute is not “actual
malice” and does not justify $31 million in punitive damages. [Emphasis mine.]

Although spiritual oversight of Jehovah's Witnesses, includes the Governing Body, there is now a good reason to leave the various corporations out of the mix. This way the Governing Body can legally claim to not be under the direction of the Watchtower, nor of the CCJW. The local congregations, although more closely associated with the CCJW, can also be treated as separate from these corporate entities:

Congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses receive spiritual oversight and
pastoral care from a group of local elders who are “clergy” under Montana law.

An expression that was very common in the brief referred to "established Jehovah's Witnesses doctrine and practice" without a need to acknowledge that this has historically been "established" through communication with Watchtower Society entities (where the money is kept). Instead, the connection to the CCJW can be admitted now as the legal conduit through which doctrine and practice is established, and CCJW is a source of spiritual advisement, just as the GB are. 

Congregation elders throughout the United States receive spiritual
guidance from elders at CCJW in New York. CR 77, Ex. C ¶7; Ex. G ¶7;
Ex. H ¶4. CCJW, a New York non-profit corporation headquartered in New
York, supports the religion of Jehovah’s Witnesses. CR 77, Ex. G ¶¶5-7.
Congregation elders confidentially communicate with elders at CCJW to
receive spiritual counsel and guidance. [p.8]

In other words, it's true that local congregations get advice from the CCJW which is spiritual advice, also confidential due to clergy privilege, but that the legal advice comes from the Watchtower, and this is effectively confidential due to something akin to attorney client privilege. This is clarified on page 9:

Watchtower, a New York nonprofit corporation that supports Jehovah’s
Witnesses, maintains a legal department. CR 77, Ex. Z: 39:7-40:8. While
congregation elders turn to CCJW’s Service Department elders for confidential
spiritual guidance, they call Watchtower’s Legal Department for confidential
legal advice. . . . CCJW is not owned or operated by, and
does not own or operate, Watchtower. At all relevant times (p.9)

CCJW (not Watchtower) communicated religious policies and procedures to
local elders. (p.10)

On this basis alone, as the court acknowledged blame in much higher proportion to the Watchtower (80 percent) and CCJW (15 percent) and the local congregation (4 percent) and the mother (1 percent), the WTS attorneys would therefore wish to show that the award was incorrect.

Other attempts to remove culpability and liability from New York entities were argued throughout much of the rest of the brief. For example:

Fourth, the elders with CCJW and the Watchtower attorney who learned
about the abuse all live in New York. Their duty to report is governed by New
York law, not Montana law. A state “has no authority to mandate reports by
adults or agencies in other states.”

[JW Insider]

15 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

When I was 5, I spoke to a friend of my friend’s father that was 116 years old. He forged papers to enlist in the last year of the Civil War. I asked how he felt about the Confederate and Union parade in New York back in 1916 I believe. He didn’t care for it. At 116, he still had heavy resentment for the North. I guess he died feeling that way. I never visited again.

Let's assume that the last year of the Civil War was 1865, and that this person forged papers because he was only about 16 or so. This would mean he was about 116 in 1965, when you were about 5. This fits most of what you have claimed elsewhere about your age and experience, and it means that you are about my age.

It reminds me of 1964, when we moved to the Springfield/Joplin, Missouri area to 'serve where the need was greater' and we ended up assigned to a congregation in the Boonville/Versailles, Missouri area. In Missouri we came across several persons up until about 1967 who claimed to remember the Civil War. I never met someone who claimed to fight, but a few who lost their parents or other close relatives. One old man on my "magazine route" as we called it, claimed to have been over 100 and he made "fiddles." He said his father fought but I don't even remember for which side. 

What really impressed me is that, at age 5, you asked him about a "Confederate and Union" parade in New York that happened nearly 45 years before you born. And a seemingly obscure parade, at that! I could hardly find out anything about this particular parade.

[JOHN BUTLER]

 @JW Insider This is what i get when i try the link, because UK is part of Europe 

451: Unavailable due to legal reasons

But this court case : Legal legal legal, but no moral, no going the extra mile. No, obeying God as ruler rather than men,  it's obeying the legal department rather than God. 

Judas, to the very extreme. Think about the money money money. 

 CCJW, a New York non-profit corporation headquartered in New
York, supports the religion of Jehovah’s Witnesses. CR 77, Ex. G ¶¶5-7.

What ????? So the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's witnesses are not Jehovah's witnesses, they just support Jehovah's Witnesses.  So um, if CCJW is the headquarters, then what it it the headquarters of ?  And how can it be called the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses ?

And they are also saying that the individual congregations are not part of CCJW or Watchtower.  Then why does each and every congregation have to send its  donations to the CCJW or Watchtower ? The individual congregations can only keep enough money to cover one or two months expenses and has to send the rest to CCJW (or Watchtower).  If the congregations are completely separate then what authority does the CCJW or W/t have over each and every congregation ? 

Oh well, even more reason to not be a JW isn't it ?  I hope the Kid loves all this  

[JW Insider]

26 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And they are also saying that the individual congregations are not part of CCJW or Watchtower.

I'm not saying the individual congregations are not part of the CCJW or the Watchtower, I'm just showing the kinds of legal arguments that must be made to protect the financial part of the current kingdom "interests." It's not that I think that attorneys should not try to do what they can to limit financial exposure either, as long as they are also looking for "fairness" and "justice" for the victims. But all Witnesses should be aware that the material resources that we currently enjoy as part of the organization are not permanent. They are not "promised." In fact, all of us should at all times be willing to walk by faith and not by sight.

A lack of money can result in a breakdown of the lines of communication between a local congregation and various entities in New York. Are we willing to make the best of such a situation and trust in Jehovah? The WTS/CCJW is currently trying to prepare Witnesses for such an eventuality. Will it happen as predicted? Will it happen in a way that doesn't come anywhere close to what is being predicted? What if the GB are taken by some nefarious forces, as you have spoken of? What if they are put in prison for covering up child abuse? They have surely considered these possibilities themselves. What if, instead of the protection expected in an imminent great tribulation, our religion and organization becomes an object of derision for 40 more years? (These are not predictions and have nothing to do with any Bible prophecies that I know of.)

In any particular country, or perhaps even on a more international scale, we have certain expectations bolstered by prophetic interpretations, and we will easily maintain faithfulness if those expectations seem to align with our beliefs about ourselves. But we also need to be prepared for maintaining our faith under completely different circumstances. One of those circumstances might be merely going on for another 50 years as more and more of our brothers lose their enthusiasm, and cannot seem to be goaded any longer by proddings of 'imminence.' We can go back to a Biblical question in Luke 18:8:

Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

[JOHN BUTLER]

@JW Insider But as I've said before, if the GB are 'taken' in any way (death or prison etc) for the Child Abuse issue or false teachings or shunning etc, then it will not be persecution for serving God, but more like people taking revenge or legal action because the GB did not serve God. 

Surely you can see that some of the hate that people have for the GB and JW's, has nothing to do with any prophecy, nothing to do with how they serve God, but more to do with the facts of how the GB and JW's behave in an immoral and unjust way. So any 'worldly action' against the GB / JW Org is more likely to be by those that have suffered in some way because of the GB and it's Org's actions. I don't think that is in prophecy.  If the GB tries to pretend that any action against them is related to prophecy I will find it so funny.