How the New European Data Law Will Affect Jehovah’s Witnesses - My Take

[TrueTomHarley]

4 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion

One atheist was trying to illuminate me on the wonders of science. He pointed to quantum theory, that a tiny particle might disappear here and simultaneously reappear there. “On a large scale, it would be as though I appeared right in your living room out of nowhere,” he told me.

I replied that JW scientists knew all about this and had been working on the problem for some time, with obvious applications in the field ministry. 

[Srecko Sostar]

3 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

And ^[b]they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months.

Well, this verse not confirm how God torments Human Souls after Death , but while they are  still Alive. :))))

[Evacuated]

6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

The Vietnamese Branch Office Lawyer?

No. That was Dun Kwik

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Flying mechanical Drones witnessing, instead of Cart Witnessing!

Whata GREAT idea !

Not to be confused with existing witnessing drones.

[Witness]

19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

that if you decide to listen to prophets like Hananiah,

Hananiah, in Jeremiah 28, prophesied a premature freedom with the promise of peace; as do the governing body/leaders of the WT.  Both proclaim a freedom from Babylon – “breaking free” of Babylon’s “yoke”. 

Hananiah:   “Thus speaks the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, saying: ‘I have broken the yoke of the king of Babylon. And I will bring back to this place Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, with all the captives of Judah who went to Babylon,’ says the Lord, ‘for I will break the yoke of the king of Babylon.’ ”Jer 28:2,4

From the WT 16/11 p. 22-23:  The facts show, however, that in the decades leading up to World War I, God’s anointed servants were actually breaking free from Babylon the Great, not becoming enslaved to it.

Jeremiah answers Hananiah:  (GNT) - ⁶ “Wonderful! I hope the Lord will do this! I certainly hope he will make your prophecy come true and will bring back from Babylonia all the Temple treasures and all the people who were taken away as prisoners. ⁷ But listen to what I say to you and to the people. ⁸ The prophets who spoke long ago, before my time and yours, predicted that war, starvation, and disease would come to many nations and powerful kingdoms. ⁹ But a prophet who predicts peace can only be recognized as a prophet whom the Lord has truly sent when that prophet's predictions come true.”

From the organization’s leaders:

WT 15/7/15 pp. 1,2:  Jehovah’s people enjoy a special environment of peace in the earthly part of his organization.

WT 05/2/15 pp. 17-22:  Our spiritual heritage can also infuse in us a deep sense of spiritual security that can be enjoyed only within Jehovah’s organization. 05/2/15 pp. 17-22

The messages of these two prophets contradict all other prophetic messages throughout Bible history made by God’s authentic servants to deliver to His people; and always when they were steeped in sin and idolatry.  Exod 32:8,4; Jer 2:5; Rom 1:25

 Then the prophet Jeremiah said to Hananiah the prophet, “Hear now, Hananiah, the Lord has not sent you, but you make this people trust in a lie. Jer 28:15

Gerrit Loesch:  “Since Jehovah God and Jesus Christ completely trust the faithful and discreet slave, should we not do the same?”

With each passing year, “peace” is far from being realized in the organization. Lawsuits, prison sentences, sell-off of real estate, the percentage of growth rate being stagnant, disfellowshipping (certainly not a sign of peace, but of “war” Eph 6:12) shows a different picture of “Zion” than what Isaiah prophesied in Isa 2:2,3.   This is because the organization is a complete counterfeit Zion. 

 “Go and tell Hananiah, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord: “You have broken the yokes of wood, but you have made in their place yokes of iron.” ¹⁴ For thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: ‘I have put a yoke of iron on the neck of all these nations, that they may serve Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; and they shall serve him. I have given him the beasts of the field also.’ ”

Since the GB admit that Christendom is not an anti-typical fulfillment of Jerusalem, Jesus’ words of Matt chapter 24  describing  the “great tribulation” to occur and its impending destruction, cannot apply to Christendom, but to God’s people.  There is no longer any excuse for JWs to believe it does.  Spiritual “Babylon” is where God’s people now reside. 

As an instrument of Satan, the ruling dynasty of Babylon, initially headed by Nebuchadnezzar, held Israel in exile for 68 years, until Babylon’s overthrow. it-2 pp. 866-870

Today, the symbolic time period in “Babylon” has reached completion, by the exposure of the identity of the Man of Lawlessness, which is the Beast from the Sea in Revelation 13:1, and as WT puts it, Satan’s “organization”.

Beast #1 - Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 

 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.  Rev 13:1,2,7

If the anointed servants of Christ have already ‘broke free’ of Babylon, how is it they are “overcome”, which means “conquer, to carry off the victory” by the Beast/organization, which is an “instrument of Satan”?  And over and over, JWs are told they are the “great crowd” out of all nations, tribes, people and tongues.  Rev 7:9  Where else in the world of “organization” do we find both the “saints” and people from all nations gathered in one organization?

 

Beast #2 - Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.

Beast #2 is a composite false prophet – a Harlot, who has left their covenant in Christ who directs Beast #1. Col 2:18,19

“Now you arrogant leaders who rule here in Jerusalem over this people, listen to what the Lord is saying. ¹⁵ You boast that you have made a treaty with death and reached an agreement with the world of the dead. You are certain that disaster will spare you when it comes, because you depend on lies and deceit to keep you safe.”  Isa 28:114,15

He was granted power to give breath (direct spirit) to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 

Recall that on your baptism day, before eyewitnesses, you were asked whether you had dedicated yourself to Jehovah and understood that “your dedication and baptism identify you (mark) as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization.” Wt 17/4 p. 5-7

Anyone who rejects the organization’s “mark” is disfellowshipped – “killed”.

¹⁶ He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, ¹⁷ and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

“mark” - of the mark stamped on the forehead or the right hand as the badge of the followers of the Antichrist… of idolatrous images

 “buy or sell” -  be in the market place, to attend it/to be busy,to trade, to sell whatever is sold:

“buy” – which happens at each meeting, Watchtower’s “marketplace”, and when reading every magazine.   JWs are “buying” their spiritual food from a false prophet and not directly from Jesus Christ.  Rev 3:18

WT 13/7/15 pp. 20-21:   In this time of the end, Jesus is feeding his true followers through that faithful slave. It is extremely important that we know who the faithful slave is. Our friendship with God depends on receiving spiritual food through this faithful slave.

In return for what JWs have “bought”, friendship with God leading to eternal life is the result of this spiritual exchange, when “purchasing” spiritual food from the governing body/organization.

“sell” -the cart work/preaching work of JWs, including the total commitment to an organization; enslaved to not only its teachings, but to the rulership of men.  1 Cor 7:23; Rom 6:16

WT 95/10/1 pp. 25-28:  We can be certain that it was not just a ruse used by Jesus to keep his followers busy in the preaching and teaching work.  Yes, the God-stimulated sense of urgency had a wonderfully encouraging effect on the first-century Christians, helping them to keep busy in the all-important work of preaching and teaching. It continues to encourage us today in many ways. It (the preaching work) keeps us from becoming complacent or ‘weary of well doing.’

What an odd thing to say, unless the men who wrote this, wanting you to believe the “preaching work” of JWs follows Christ’s example, know their brand of preaching is really…a RUSE.   JWs deliver or “sell” the “faithful slave’s” food in the preaching work; direct from a “faithful slave” who has preached failed doctrine (which is NOT a sign of being faithful and discreet in the least), and a premature proclamation of peace.  John 6:27

The “antichrist” is spoken of in 2 Thess chapter 2.  “As if from us” (2 Thess 2:2)– from those within the anointed Body of Christ, a message is declared that the “day of the Lord has come”. 1914 was declared as the “Day of the Lord” by the Watchtower organization, which results in the pronouncement of a “spiritual paradise”. 

In 1 Thess 5, the cry of “peace and security” is sounded by those who preach that the “day of the Lord” has come, which again, has been accomplished by the Watchtower organization and its false prophets. 

“For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. ³ When they say, “Peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. ⁴ But you, brothers and sisters, are not in the dark, for this day to surprise you like a thief.”  1 Thess 5:2-4

 Paul states this is the sign of the presence of the “lawless one” whom God “sends” or allows to overcome His people.  God allowed Babylon to conquer His people in Jeremiah’s time for their act of rebellion against Him, and he has allowed it again.  It is the “instrument” of discipline allowed by God. Luke 22:31 Once he removes His protective Spirit, Satan steps in.  2 Thess 2:9

When Paul wrote 2 Thess 2 he is speaking to God’s anointed people of this lawless presence to come. He taught the anointed ones that they are the Temple of God (1 Cor 3:16,17) and he is warning these “living stones” (1 Pet 2:5,9) that a “Gentile” force would “sit” in the Temple (“to set, appoint, to confer a kingdom on one).  2 Thess 2:4; Rev 11:1,2  This is in place, with the elder body ruling over the anointed priesthood.  Obedience to them and the GB who directs them,  is paramount to one’s continued existence in the organization.  Matt 24:48-51   The elder body is “lawlessness” – the “man of lawlessness” and the “disgusting thing standing in the holy place”.  Matt 24:15

The call in Rev 18:4-8 is to “my people” – to “flee Babylon”. Jer 51:6;Matt 24:16 God’s anointed “living stones” are not in Christendom, but where the premature cry of “’peace and security” in a “spiritual paradise” uttered by a false prophet…is established as “truth”. 

2 Thess 2:9-12: “The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, ¹⁰ and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. ¹¹ And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, ¹² that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

Do God’s people face “war, starvation, and disease” in the Watchtower? Matt 24:7

Both starvation and disease are the result of drinking in the Harlot’s “wormwood” –bitter waters full of lies, delivered to God’s saints and the “nations” with them, by her “locust scorpion” army.   Rev 6:6; 13:7; 9:1-5; 8:10,11; 18:8

 

 

 

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Both starvation and disease are the result of drinking in the Harlot’s “wormwood”

I gave a brief Witness to someone who quite obviously wore his righteousness on his sleeve, and he said “No thank you. I’m Christian”

(I would never do the following it were but an honest statement of fact. But—believe me on this—it was plainly meant to play the “Superior” card. “No thank you—I’m Christian” - to convey his judgement that I was not.)

”Actually, only a Christian would do what I am doing,” I told him. “Frankly, I’m a little surprised that you are not doing it yourself.”

Slowly fade smug smile.

[JW Insider]

I think I just got bored that there had been less scriptural discussion of late (not counting some notable exceptions here and there, however).

10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

With regard to Jeremiah 29:11, I guess this is true what you point out, and normally I would be on your side on this, but here i just can’t get too worked up over it. It is used essentially as an ice-breaker here. Call it not the primary application but a secondary one.

Nothing to get worked up over, but we do have an obligation to handle the word of God aright. And I don't think it is wrong to use the verse as a statement of something positive, because it is something very positive. In fact, to me, there is something very meaningful going on in this verse, and I hate to think we miss it by using the verse out of context.

In context, it is actually amazing that God's people are being asked to stop defending their land, stop defending the Davidic Kingdom and the Temple, but to just willingly leave with Babylonian captors, pray for Babylon to let you live a peaceful life as captives, get ready to stay a long time there, get married, plant fruit trees, have kids, and then await a time when you (or at least your children) can come back to the re-promised land and start fresh. Jehovah had something truly amazing in mind for those who were willing to listen to something that really made no rational sense to most of the people listening.

This probably didn't make much sense that an enemy who would be starving people to death in a siege on Jerusalem was going to be someone they should compromise with. It might even look like treason to their fellow Judean brethren. And yet, we have actual physical evidence among tens of thousands of neo-Babylonian documents that the Jews very quickly formed peaceful communities in Babylon. Jeremiah was right, even though it seemed to be against all the odds. Neither the upper or the lower classes generally believed him; other prophets were claiming something else. Jeremiah was imprisoned for such talk. All the while some Jews were fleeing to Egypt or in other directions for protection, or with the thought that they could regroup and fight Babylon. Jeremiah said they shouldn't do that either. The royal family was sure that it should defy Babylon and make its stand against it. The land was being decimated of all its people. At the time, who'd have thought that Jeremiah was giving good inspired advice?

If there is a "type-antitype" lesson here, it's probably not that we should compromise with some antitypical Babylon.  It's more likely that the point is that God's people today might have to be willing to give up our comfortable reliance on the physical, visible "Temple" and our authoritative "governors." God's people will have to understand that each one of us will stand spiritually on our own. We are temporary residents (alien residents) in a world that we should not get too attached to. We are not judged for what our earthly or spiritual "fathers" have done, but the law will be written on our own hearts. We won't be reliant on what our neighbors or brothers tell us about how to know Jehovah, for each of us will know Jehovah on our own. I think all those points are found in the next couple of chapters, especially Jeremiah 31:28-34:

(Jeremiah 31:28-34) 28 “And just as I watched over them to uproot, to pull down, to tear down, to destroy, and to do harm, so I will watch over them to build up and to plant,” declares Jehovah. 29 “In those days they will no longer say, ‘The fathers ate sour grapes, but the teeth of the sons were set on edge.’ 30 But then each one will die for his own error. Any man eating sour grapes will have his own teeth set on edge.” 31 “Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant. 32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, ‘my covenant that they broke, although I was their true master,’ declares Jehovah.” 33 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I will write it. And I will become their God, and they will become my people.” 34 “And they will no longer teach each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know Jehovah!’ for they will all know me, from the least to the greatest of them,” declares Jehovah. “For I will forgive their error, and I will no longer remember their sin.”

[JW Insider]

23 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

you may not have noticed that someone pointed to a Religion News article (it may have been Outta Here) that Jer 29:11 was the new feel-good verse of our age, replacing John 3:14

Missed that.

23 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

As for Matthew 5:3, I am not one of those who say the NWT is great and all the other translations suck, but in this case I think it has hit a home run. 

As I said, I don't have a problem with this one because I'm sure we have the right idea about the actual correct application. I don't think we needed to put the interpretation into the translation though, because more likely translations of the original Greek were available, and these more likely translations fit other scriptures much better.

For example, the Greek does not literally say: "beggars in spirit." The word usually translated "poor" primarily means wretched or reduced to wretchedness, not beggar. Of course, many wretched or persons "reduced to wretchedness" were forced to beg, so a secondary meaning could be "beggar" in some circumstances. Most beggars are poor, but not all poor are beggars, so it's better to stick with the more literal meaning of the word and not add anything to that meaning unless context says we must. The more literal meaning of the term, was not evidently crouching in the stance of a beggar, necessarily, but crouching as if cringing in fear, or slinking away (from crowds, from society, from getting kicked out of places).

Of course, the term must have included beggars, which makes the translation possible. But look at the parallel in Luke where the verse reads merely as follows:

(Luke 6:20, 21) . . .Happy are you who are poor, for yours is the Kingdom of God. 21 “Happy are you who hunger now, for you will be filled. “Happy are you who weep now, for you will laugh.

Do we think that Luke missed the point completely about the "beggars" and only noticed that they were poor, hungry and weeping? So, the thing to figure out then is if adding the term "of/in spirit" changes the meaning to those who must be conscious of a need for "spirit." If it were so germane to the meaning in Matthew, you'd think it would have been at least hinted at in Luke. We end up giving the words for lack of "spirit" a new meaning of lack of "spirituality" when we add the idea of a "spiritual need." What they really need, we are told elsewhere in Matthew is to have their spirits lifted, because they are broken-hearted and sighing and groaning over the system of things and their particular circumstances in it. So it's right in one sense.

(Matthew 11:5, 6) . . .the poor are being told the good news. 6 Happy is the one who finds no cause for stumbling in me.”

But the more likely sense is that Jesus, by his ministry of curing and preaching and bringing hope, is accomplishing the goal that fulfills what was written about Jesus through Isaiah:

(Isaiah 61:1-3) . . .The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, Because Jehovah anointed me to declare good news to the meek. He sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And the wide opening of the eyes to the prisoners,  2 To proclaim the year of Jehovah’s goodwill And the day of vengeance of our God, To comfort all who mourn,  3 To provide for those mourning over Zion, To give them a headdress instead of ashes, The oil of exultation instead of mourning, The garment of praise instead of a despondent spirit.

Jesus brought hope of justice, hope of a new world. He healed; he fed; he comforted; he even raised the dead. He stood up to the religious oppressors; he preached a day when the world they lived in would pass away and a new Kingdom would be born. He therefore raised the spirits of those who were wretchedly reduced in spirit (despondent, depressed).

(Matthew 11:28-30) 28 Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh you. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am mild-tempered and lowly in heart, and you will find refreshment for yourselves. 30 For my yoke is kindly, and my load is light.”

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

As I said, I don't have a problem with this one because I'm sure we have the right idea about the actual correct application. 

I guess the real problem is that when I say

“Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven,” (KJV)

everyone says “Huh?”

[JOHN BUTLER]

9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I gave a brief Witness to someone who quite obviously wore his righteousness on his sleeve, and he said “No thank you. I’m Christian”

(I would never do the following it were but an honest statement of fact. But—believe me on this—it was plainly meant to play the “Superior” card. “No thank you—I’m Christian” - to convey his judgement that I was not.)

”Actually, only a Christian would do what I am doing,” I told him. “Frankly, I’m a little surprised that you are not doing it yourself.”

Slowly fade smug smile.

So you think it is 'Christian' to give people one message one day then a different message next week when the GB / Org changes the meaning of scriptures. What you take to the people is not from God or Jesus Christ, it is from your superiors in the JW Org / Watchtower Soc'.  So maybe that person was more 'Christian' than you. At least they are not taking false information to people. 

[TrueTomHarley]

36 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

What you take to the people is not from God or Jesus Christ, it is from your superiors in the JW Org / Watchtower Soc'. 

Our “superiors” are us. They were once regular members of some congregation or other. Many of them cut their teeth doing work more lowly than most of those whom they would later lead—full time evangelizing in developing lands. The only reason this ridiculous division of our “superiors” and us is created is to further the silly meme of one group victimizing the other.

[JOHN BUTLER]

6 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Our “superiors” are us. They were once regular members of some congregation or other. Many of them cut their teeth doing work more lowly than most of those whom they would later lead—full time evangelizing in developing lands. The only reason this ridiculous division of our “superiors” and us is created is to further the silly meme of one group victimizing the other.

Or is it because they have exalted themselves with the title of 'Faithful and discreet slave', above all the anointed Earthwide ?

They would have 'cut their teeth' on false teachings then it seems, teaching lies to innocent people. The very basics of the Soc / Org's teachings have changed and the meanings of scriptures too.