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TrueTomHarley

How the New European Data Law Will Affect Jehovah’s Witnesses - My Take

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2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I do comedy often to lessen the brutality of real truth.

Ah, so that is why certain people on here dislike me, because i don't turn real truth into comedy. 

Sorry i can't oblige on that. I've seen too much suffering in many way to make jokes out if it. 

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11 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But be serious on this one. Surely the Stock Exchange is still gambling ?

Attend any business school or talk to any banker or businessman. Go to any retirement seminar. Talk to any financial advisor. Contact the Human Resources department of your employer.

See if the stock market is considered gambling.

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7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Attend any business school or talk to any banker or businessman. Go to any retirement seminar. Talk to any financial advisor. Contact the Human Resources department of your employer.

See if the stock market is considered gambling.

You are talking from a 'worldly viewpoint', I was meaning from a more scriptural / moral viewpoint of honesty, hard work and conscience.

Basically the GB / Org allows the stock market just like Moses allowed divorce. And it seems for the same reason the Society allowed smoking up until 1970 even though they knew it was wrong in the late 1800's.

They are frightened to offend too many people, as it would mean less money in the pot from contributions. 

 

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23 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You are talking from a 'worldly viewpoint', I was meaning from a more scriptural / moral viewpoint of honesty, hard work and conscience.

It certainly can be indulged in as though gambling, but so can most things. Start a business, for example, and you are “gambling” with many unknowns. Far “safer” to walk into the factory and ask for a job. You are “gambling” every time you get behind the wheel of a car.

But the basic idea of “investing” in the stock market is not gambling at all. Buying a stock is buying a very very tiny piece of a company. You benefit the company by supplying it with the funds it needs to expand. In turn, you are (a very tiny) part owner of that company, to thrive if it thrives.

How “moral” it is is anyone’s guess. It depends upon where you are & what companies you invest in. In the case of huge companies, it becomes the case of the tail (the stockholders) wagging the dog (the company).

If you, for example, own John’s Bomb Company [and I am not being snarky or suggestive here, I am just trying to illustrate a point] then you are content to wait for customers. When you get an order for a bomb, you go into the workshop to make one.

But when you are a gigantic weapons company with many stockholders to “feed,” you have to keep feeding them. You cannot just wait for bomb orders to roll in—what if there is a period of peace?  If you don’t make and sell a lot of bombs, then you don’t make money for your stockholders, and they go somewhere else where they can make money. 

So there is an irresistible temptation to make your market. That’s why the armaments companies have a huge presence in government circles as lobbyists. It is not merely to say, ‘Hey, if you need bombs, we are better than that other company.’ More significantly, it is to say, ‘The world is a very dangerous place, with many many enemies that must be kept in check. You cannot have too many bombs on hand, and as it turns out, we make them.’

For the longest time, Russia (or the Soviet Union) has been identified as the king of the north, who puts his trusts in fortresses. It is he who hosts public parades of weapons rolling through the streets—boasting in military might.  Still, right now, the U.S. is bombing more countries than he.

This is but the most blatant example. Parallels can be found in most industries—energy, food, chemical, pharmaceutical, banking, for instance. They can’t just wait around for people to order their product. They must, in order to “feed” the stockholders, go out and make markets, and expand ones already made.

It is entirely separate from “gambling,” and might be seen as the bigger evil. After all, if you have some money, you are “gambling” far more by sticking it under your mattress. You are gambling that there is no fire or thief. And if you put your money in the bank, you know very well that they are not just sitting on it. They are putting it in the stock market in hopes of making a profit. Or they are loaning it out to other people, who may not pay it back. How’s that for gambling (with your funds)? 

 

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3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

But the basic idea

Should/could this sort of worldly basic idea be possible to find in this spiritual advice: "Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves." 

If yes, perhaps Jesus was not only spiritual Teacher but also successful Wall Street Investment Advisor?

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14 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If yes, perhaps Jesus was not only spiritual Teacher but also successful Wall Street Investment Advisor?

Well.....if you insist upon going there, then you must also include Pharoah’s daughter, who went down to the Nile bank and withdrew a small prophet.

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8 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Well.....if you insist upon going there, then you must also include Pharoah’s daughter, who went down to the Nile bank and withdrew a small prophet.

TTH that is fantastic. Best one on here that I've seen. 

On a more serious note though. If as I think you said, the GB /Wt / JW Org (who it seems are 3 separate entities ) are investing in the 'stocks', is it possible to trace exactly what stocks they are investing in.  There are always rumours of course but is it possible to find the truth. Do any of those 3 have to publicly show who they are investing in ? 

Another strange thing, if they are 'charities' non profit making, then surely 'playing the stock exchange' is making profit. 

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3 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Another strange thing, if they are 'charities' non profit making, then surely 'playing the stock exchange' is making profit. 

Anyone who has any money at all must park it somewhere when not in immediate use. Large swaths of the market far emphasize safety of principle over its increase. After all, if you do nothing at all, you lose your principle due to inflation.

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8 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

is it possible to trace exactly what stocks they are investing in. 

And don’t think that you are springing any sneaky traps on anyone. Talk to my financial advisor, @Witness And then just link to the thread that already exists. I’m not about to reinvent the wheel here.

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30 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Well.....if you insist upon going there, then you must also include Pharoah’s daughter, who went down to the Nile bank and withdrew a small prophet.

Oh Tom, I do not insist on anything here :)))

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Re making interest by way of bank or stock market:

(Matthew 25:24-27) 24 “Finally the slave who had received the one talent came forward and said: ‘Master, I knew you to be a demanding man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you did not winnow. 25 So I grew afraid and went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26 In reply his master said to him: ‘Wicked and sluggish slave, you knew, did you, that I reaped where I did not sow and gathered where I did not winnow? 27 Well, then, you should have deposited my money with the bankers, and on my coming I would have received it back with interest.
 

Jesus acknowledged the bankers' work (and the methods they use to get interest). If the bankers gamble with your money (in the stock market  - every single bank [international development bank and commercial bank] has a department that invests in stocks) and make interest you don't usually complain and ask how the interest was made and wherein they invested your money.  You put out your hand and take the interest.  It is like what Paul said:

(1 Corinthians 10:25, 26)" 25 Eat whatever is sold in a meat market, making no inquiry because of your conscience, 26 for “to Jehovah belong the earth and everything in it.” 

 

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6 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

(Matthew 25:24-27) 24 “Finally the slave who had received the one talent came forward and said: ‘Master, I knew you to be a demanding man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you did not winnow. 25 So I grew afraid and went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26 In reply his master said to him: ‘Wicked and sluggish slave, you knew, did you, that I reaped where I did not sow and gathered where I did not winnow? 27 Well, then, you should have deposited my money with the bankers, and on my coming I would have received it back with interest.

Here we have confusion about Bible verses and meaning. Can we conclude from Jesus' words that He supported the financial and economic system of the Jewish and Roman Monetary System?

Parables and Illustrations or Verbatim Advice what do do with Money? :)))

What is Spiritual and what is Literal? What is Story Lesson?  

"...you knew, did you, that I reaped where I did not sow and gathered where I did not winnow?"  - Is this Jesus, Master you want as King? 

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Jesus Saves .... But Moses INVESTS!

 

And remember what God told the Pioneer Brother in Ohio who lost his job, and his wife lost hers, and she became pregnant, and the Brother prayed incessantly, day and night, to win the Lottery, to support his family ....

( ... imagine a voice like rolling thunder ...)

IT WOULD HELP IF YOU BOUGHT A TICKET !

 

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10 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Re making interest by way of bank or stock market:

(Matthew 25:24-27) 24 “Finally the slave who had received the one talent came forward and said: ‘Master, I knew you to be a demanding man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you did not winnow. 25 So I grew afraid and went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26 In reply his master said to him: ‘Wicked and sluggish slave, you knew, did you, that I reaped where I did not sow and gathered where I did not winnow? 27 Well, then, you should have deposited my money with the bankers, and on my coming I would have received it back with interest.
 

Jesus acknowledge the bankers work (and the methods they use to get interest). If the bankers gamble with your money (in the stock market  - every single bank [international development bank and commercial bank) has a department that invests in stocks) and make interest you don't usually complain and ask how the interest was made and wherein they invested your money.  You put out your hand and take the interest.  It is like what Paul said:

(1 Corinthians 10:25, 26)" 25 Eat whatever is sold in a meat market, making no inquiry because of your conscience, 26 for “to Jehovah belong the earth and everything in it.” 

 

Twisting scripture to suit your own means. Typical JW. There is a big difference between putting your money in the bank and Gambling on the stock market.

Gambling is gambling whatever way you do it. It's not me that is against gambling it's your GB / JW Org / W/t writers.

It's the love of money that is a sin not just having money. But my point is , as with the Smoking thing, not made 'law' in the Org until 1970, and the Christmas thing not made 'law' in the Org until around 25 years after they knew it was wrong.  So it is with the Stock Market, they know it's wrong but they still do it and allow others to do it. 

But if a congregant should do the Lottery or other forms of gambling they would get 'reproved' from the platform. 

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4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

"...you knew, did you, that I reaped where I did not sow and gathered where I did not winnow?"  Is this Jesus, Master you want as King? 

Since all these parables are explained in the context of working for kingdom interests—largely, in the preaching and disciple-making activity, I think this line translates into the “wicked” slave refusing to do that work and throwing it back in the Master’s face, as though to say:

”You want disciples? Then get off your lazy rear end and make them yourself!”

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On 5/29/2019 at 3:35 AM, TrueTomHarley said:
  On 5/28/2019 at 4:20 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

But be serious on this one. Surely the Stock Exchange is still gambling ?

Some may feel this to be the case. Of course there is no mandate to invest in Stocks as there is also no prohibition. It is just one of those matters for a personal decision, such a problem for those who prefer rules. Investopedia has a summary on this "myth".

Investing in Stocks Equates to Gambling

This reasoning causes many people to shy away from the stock market. To understand why investing in stocks is inherently different from gambling, we need to review what it means to buy stocks. A share of common stock represents ownership in a company. It entitles the holder to a claim on assets as well as a fraction of the profits that the company generates. Too often, investors think of shares as simply a trading vehicle, and they forget that stock represents ownership.

In the stock market, investors are constantly trying to assess the profit that will be left over for shareholders. This is why stock prices fluctuate. The outlook for business conditions is always changing, and so are the future earnings of a company.

Assessing the value of a company is complex. There are so many variables involved that short-term price movements appear to be random (academics call this the random walk theory); however, over the long term, a company is supposed to be worth the present value of the profits it will make. In the short term, a company can survive without profits because of the expectations of future earnings, but no company can fool investors forever—eventually, a company's stock price will show the true value of the firm.

Gambling, in contrast, is a zero-sum game. Gambling merely takes money from a loser and gives it to a winner. No value is ever created whereas the overall wealth of an economy increases through investing. As companies compete, they increase productivity and often develop products that improve lives. Investing and creating wealth should not be confused with gambling's zero-sum game.

Of course, some approach investment with a gambler's mentality and often end up with a gambler's reward.....nothing.

As far as gambling is concerned, elders have better things to do than be concerned about those who wish to throw their money into the air. However, there are other connected issues that have more serious repercussions, These may invite attention.

I couldn't resist exploding the Stock Exchange myth as it has surfaced here and may mislead others, but I'm bowing out of this thread now as it is off topic and discused thoroughly elsewhere :)

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31 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

Some may feel this to be the case. Of course there is no mandate to invest in Stocks as there is also no prohibition. It is just one of those matters for a personal decision, such a problem for those who prefer rules. Investopedia has a summary on this "myth".

Investing in Stocks Equates to Gambling

This reasoning causes many people to shy away from the stock market. To understand why investing in stocks is inherently different from gambling, we need to review what it means to buy stocks. A share of common stock represents ownership in a company. It entitles the holder to a claim on assets as well as a fraction of the profits that the company generates. Too often, investors think of shares as simply a trading vehicle, and they forget that stock represents ownership.

In the stock market, investors are constantly trying to assess the profit that will be left over for shareholders. This is why stock prices fluctuate. The outlook for business conditions is always changing, and so are the future earnings of a company.

Assessing the value of a company is complex. There are so many variables involved that short-term price movements appear to be random (academics call this the random walk theory); however, over the long term, a company is supposed to be worth the present value of the profits it will make. In the short term, a company can survive without profits because of the expectations of future earnings, but no company can fool investors forever—eventually, a company's stock price will show the true value of the firm.

Gambling, in contrast, is a zero-sum game. Gambling merely takes money from a loser and gives it to a winner. No value is ever created whereas the overall wealth of an economy increases through investing. As companies compete, they increase productivity and often develop products that improve lives. Investing and creating wealth should not be confused with gambling's zero-sum game.

Of course, some approach investment with a gambler's mentality and often end up with a gambler's reward.....nothing.

As far as gambling is concerned, elders have better things to do than be concerned about those who wish to throw their money into the air. However, there are other connected issues that have more serious repercussions, These may invite attention.

I couldn't resist exploding the Stock Exchange myth as it has surfaced here and may mislead others, but I'm bowing out of this thread now as it is off topic and discused thoroughly elsewhere :)

Like I've said before people can make excuses for almost any action. The GB and it's Org are very good at it. 

Um, I thought the JW Org was 'no part of the world', so why would it interest itself in the economy of the world. 

I had a nephew that was really good at poker and won quite a fortune, so to him it wasn't gambling. :) 

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16 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Jesus acknowledged the bankers' work (and the methods they use to get interest). If the bankers gamble with your money (in the stock market  - every single bank [international development bank and commercial bank] has a department that invests in stocks) and make interest you don't usually complain and ask how the interest was made and wherein they invested your money.  You put out your hand and take the interest.

Yes Melinda, you say well. But me or you as private person, individuals put our own money we earned with our hard labor. WTJWORG put other people money without their consent and will and with any, no chance to give them back interest/gain/profit of such investing.  :))

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4 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

WTJWORG put other people money without their consent

Last I checked, they had not hacked into my bank account to take anything.

It is others who try to do that, and that is why a simple command on my computer may takes seconds, even minutes to execute, due to security measures in place to thwart the theives.

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