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Justified war

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I didn't want to hijack another thread so I'm starting a new one. I haven't seen this topic covered before so I'm presenting it for discussion. Can any war be justified? For example genocidal tyrants started wars for land, which is dumb. The united states started a war with native americans and Mexicans for land. However Hitler started a war and needed to be stopped, so war was used to stop him. Now we have muslim extremist who want to kill everyone who won't bow down to their allah. We got a smart bunch here so I am interested in your thoughts.

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HERE IS A START

Wars were justified under theocracy when the Israelites were told to conquer the Canaanites and take the land he gave their forefathers.

(Hebrews 11:32-34) 32 And what more will I say? For time will fail me if I go on to relate about Gidʹe·on, Baʹrak, Samson, Jephʹthah, David, as well as Samuel and the other prophets. 33 Through faith they defeated kingdoms, brought about righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the force of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from a weak state were made powerful, became mighty in war, routed invading armies. 

War was justified to oust a powerful wicked angel from heaven

(Revelation 12:7-17)  7 And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.” 13 Now when the dragon saw that it had been hurled down to the earth, it persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is to be fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent spewed out water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river. 16 But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon spewed out from its mouth. 17 So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness concerning Jesus.

After Christ came there is no justified war on earth among humans

 

Christ made peace

(Luke 2:13, 14) . . .Suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly army, praising God and saying: 14 “Glory in the heights above to God, and on earth peace among men of goodwill.”

(Ephesians 2:11-22) 11 Therefore, remember that at one time you, people of the nations by fleshly descent, were the ones called “uncircumcision” by those called “circumcision,” which is made in the flesh by human hands. 12 At that time you were without Christ, alienated from the state of Israel, strangers to the covenants of the promise; you had no hope and were without God in the world. 13 But now in union with Christ Jesus, you who were once far off have come to be near by the blood of the Christ. 14 For he is our peace, the one who made the two groups one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. 15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, in order to make the two groups in union with himself into one new man and to make peace, 16 and to reconcile fully both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself. 17 And he came and declared the good news of peace to you who were far off, and peace to those near, 18 because through him we, both peoples, have free access to the Father by one spirit. 19 So you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God, 20 and you have been built up on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone. 21 In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah. 22 In union with him you too are being built up together into a place for God to inhabit by spirit. 


(1 John 4:8) Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love.

(1 John 3:10-12) 10 The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Whoever does not practice righteousness does not originate with God, nor does the one who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; 12 not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for what reason did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother were righteous.

True Christians do not in engage in physical warfare, but spiritual warfare

 2 Cor 10:3 -6 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ; 6 and we are prepared to inflict punishment for every disobedience, as soon as your own obedience is complete. 

(Ephesians 6:14-18) . . .Stand firm, therefore, with the belt of truth fastened around your waist, wearing the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having your feet shod in readiness to declare the good news of peace. 16 Besides all of this, take up the large shield of faith, with which you will be able to extinguish all the wicked one’s burning arrows. 17 Also, accept the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the spirit, that is, God’s word, 18 while with every form of prayer and supplication you carry on prayer on every occasion in spirit. And to that end stay awake, constantly making supplication in behalf of all the holy ones.

Christians look forward to the spiritual and literal fulfilment of prophecies about the end of all wars

(Psalm 46:9)  9 He is bringing an end to wars throughout the earth. He breaks the bow and shatters the spear; He burns the military wagons with fire.

(Psalm 72:7)  In his days the righteous will flourish, And peace will abound until the moon is no more.  


(Micah 4:1-3) 4 In the final part of the days, The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, And it will be raised up above the hills, And to it peoples will stream.  2 And many nations will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah And to the house of the God of Jacob. He will instruct us about his ways, And we will walk in his paths.” For law will go out of Zion, And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem.  3 He will render judgment among many peoples And set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away. They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears.. . .

Source of wars - world ruled by Satan

(John 18:36) Jesus answered: “My Kingdom is no part of this world. If my Kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my Kingdom is not from this source.”

(James 4:1-3) 4 What is the source of the wars and fights among you? Do they not originate from your fleshly desires that carry on a conflict within you? 2 You desire, and yet you do not have. You go on murdering and coveting, and yet you are not able to obtain. You go on fighting and waging war. You do not have because of your not asking. 3 When you do ask, you do not receive because you are asking for a wrong purpose, so that you may spend it on your fleshly desires.

False religion blood guilty - have not taught God's will

(Revelation 18:21-24) . . .Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again. 22 And the sound of singers who accompany themselves on the harp, of musicians, of flutists, and of trumpeters will never be heard in you again. And no craftsman who practices any trade will ever be found in you again, and no sound of a millstone will ever be heard in you again. 23 No light of a lamp will ever shine in you again, and no voice of a bridegroom and of a bride will ever be heard in you again; for your merchants were the top-ranking men of the earth, and by your spiritistic practices all the nations were misled. 24 Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”
 

 

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This talk about justification of war and such, I'm piggy backing off of the thought of 

22 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Hitler started a war and needed to be stopped, so war was used to stop him. Now we have muslim extremist who want to kill everyone who won't bow down to their allah. We got a smart bunch here so I am interested in your thoughts.

 

Is it not right in the eyes of morality/society to stop such tyrants from killing people just for the reason that they are not of the same race or religion? I read today that Kim Jung-un has executed his official for a failed summit between the US and North Korea. He did this by claiming that the official was a spy for the US = Public execution.  

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19 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

After Christ came there is no justified war on earth among humans

is this war between nations or individuals? 

19 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

True Christians do not in engage in physical warfare, but spiritual warfare

I guess this answers my first question, but it leads me to another. Why did Jesus tell His disciples to go and buy a sword then if they didn't have one? 

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1/  Nations and individuals are humans

 

 

2/*** it-1 p. 169 Arms, Armor ***
The fact that two swords were available among the disciples on the night of Jesus’ betrayal was not unusual for those times (Lu 22:38), and there is evidence that for Galileans in particular it was not uncommon to carry arms. (See The Jewish War, by F. Josephus, III, 42 [iii, 2].) Jesus’ words at Luke 22:36, “Let the one having no sword sell his outer garment and buy one,” would not indicate that his disciples were about to enter into a hazardous life. Rather, he desired to have a sword available among his followers on that night in order to demonstrate clearly that, though they would come into circumstances that could easily provoke armed resistance, he did not intend to resort to the sword but would give himself up voluntarily in harmony with God’s will. Thus, when Peter did react and try to put up armed resistance, lopping off the ear of Malchus, Jesus ordered him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.” (Mt 26:52; Joh 18:10, 11) Certainly, Peter’s sword and the other one at hand would have availed little against such a large group of armed men, and by trying to use them, they would undoubtedly have ‘perished by the sword.’ (Mt 26:47) More important, such attempted delivery of Jesus would have failed, being completely contrary to Jehovah God’s purpose. (Mt 26:53, 54) As it was, later that day Jesus could plainly state to Pilate: “If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”—Joh 18:36.

 

Take it or leave it.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

The fact that two swords were available among the disciples on the night of Jesus’ betrayal was not unusual for those times (Lu 22:38), and there is evidence that for Galileans in particular it was not uncommon to carry arms. (See The Jewish War, by F. Josephus, III, 42 [iii, 2].)

Jesus told them to obtain a sword. This is a stated fact by means of Luke 22:36. Obviously the account that was coming up, Jesus being seized, was in this narrative and that it was to fulfill prophesy, but Jesus already knew that there was two swords. Why then was He telling them to buy one? If they came upon a circumstance that they would need to defend themselves? Doesn't this come up in today's world where we may find ourselves in a position to defend our family and friends? From say......tyranny? 

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If you read the account carefully ( EEEEK! ) you will see that Jesus said to THEM (ALL the Apostles) to buy swords .... but TWO apostles already had their personal swords in the room with them, and called it to Jesus attention., and after reconsideration .. Jesus said "it is enough"

The Idea was to demonstrate to a bunch of bullies and mobsters that Jesus would not be "lynched' ... not to start a Jewish/Roman War.

By the way ... those who live by the sword often die by the sword ..., but although I have carried a gun all day, every day, almost all of my adult life, I was a Surveyor and Engineer, and did NOT live by the sword.

And I do not now.

I do know of four Sisters out in the Field Ministry who were hit by a car and all of them were killed.

..those who live by the car, often die by the car.

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Here is another thought, many of those who post here are in the United States, not all, but many. 

How exactly did this country (the US) gain these freedoms? The freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. There are plenty of countries who do not have these freedoms, and instead a national religion or party. So how did we get these? By means of the people fighting for these freedoms. Fighting in wars and fighting ourselves. The men and women (myself included) who dedicate a portion of their life, or all of it, have done this for the greater good of our country with the oath of "under God".  I'm sure not all of them took that portion of the oath seriously, but none the less. It is because of these people that the United States is what it is today. That being said, how can people take the benefit from those who gained these freedoms for us but yet then condemn the very thing that provided the means for our freedom. 

Reminds me of those returning from Vietnam and the reception they received. 

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23 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Wars were justified under theocracy when the Israelites were told to conquer the Canaanites and take the land he gave their forefathers.

I think that the wars of the first Israel were wars for the land, territory.

But let us recall on some important details i have found before some 20 years ago when faced with this historical reports in Bible. Abraham, a forefather of the future nation of Israel, was extremely wealthy and gained possession over large areas of land. But as time passed, there have been several things. That land that Abraham acquired or bought during his life, and legally left to his successors/heirs after his death, somehow was went to, passed on other individuals, families, people, tribes, and nations.

Please recall, for example, how he bought land for grave , for his wife. I can imagine how that was not some small piece of land, but huge territory. After long time, we saw how his tribe and grandsons moved to Egypt and left or sold territory. But we also must think about how many people in time of Great Famine sold possessions they have for food. Well, many people gave "money", sold animals, gold, silver, houses, sold land, territory and finally themselves to Pharaoh ( and Joseph) for food. Such sale was "legitimate" and many lost their property under these circumstances. 
I suppose how some part of the territory or perhaps all that land that once belonged to Abraham,  Israel slaves want back, in this way or that way, because they consider themselves as  "legitimate" heirs.  But, because that land has been in the possession of others for several hundred years already, question was: how to return land back to them? Only by war and conquest.

Issue of religion, worshiping and gods has been of second importance, or another good reason/motivation why to go to war. Fighting for "Freedom" and  for "Homeland" and for "Own People" was always powerful force that leads people. 

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

How exactly did this country (the US) gain these freedoms? The freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. There are plenty of countries who do not have these freedoms, and instead a national religion or party. So how did we get these? By means of the people fighting for these freedoms

Don't forget that the apostle Paul also  did great work in "legally" establishing the good news (the right to call on others and share faith).  Also don't forget that most of the freedoms now established in USA were spearheaded by humble Jehovah's Witnesses, who took the cases to court, tested the cases in court, and won these cases, thereby establishing rights for all including themselves. This fact has been established and acknowledged by many scholars, historians and jurists.

 

Things were pretty wild in the USA at one time as well.  No wonder people are accustomed to having lots of guns even now. Let Rook and other USA brothers talk about this. I am from a small island that used to be British. Most human rights were recently established in the last 100 years or so.

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49 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

Also don't forget that most of the freedoms now established in USA were spearheaded by humble Jehovah's Witnesses, who took the cases to court, tested the cases in court, and won these cases, thereby establishing rights for all including themselves.

Remember that this was only an option because of those whom established this country. Without those freedoms, then those jws you mentioned would have nothing. 

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For various legal, human rights, many people have fought. JW people, minority national or racial communities, LGBT community and others.

True, some individuals paid a high price for their rights. But I think that JW people because of their pacifist attitude can have "struggle" for their rights only intellectually.

If millions of "infidels" or false Christians did not shed blood in wars (WW 1 and 2) against established systems or nazism and other dictatorships, intellectual and passive resistance would not yield some results (or it would, but on some day in far future after global Natural Catastrophe or Alien visitation). 

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On 6/1/2019 at 12:24 AM, Shiwiii said:

Remember that this was only an option because of those whom established this country. Without those freedoms, then those jws you mentioned would have nothing. 

Exactly. Imagine "Legal Battle" between Lawyers Team of Israeli slaves and Pharaoh's Lawyers ? :))

Of course, do not imagine. Read report about Moses who came before Pharaoh and ask him to let go slaves live the Egypt. Moses = attorney. Slaves = party to the proceedings.

Intellectual reasoning was insufficient. Next step was application of force in several phases and of different intensity. Justified? Don't know.

But Bible report said how many people (including Egyptians) sold themselves for bread. And which idea that was? Joseph's idea as Prime minister for Pharaoh. Well, it seems how he has established or strengthened the existing ones, slave system, in Egypt. His father and brothers (68 who came from Canaan in Egypt) left own land because of famine. And they said to Pharaoh how they will stay in Egypt for short time. But they stay much longer, Even after famine has stopped (few years) they not went back. Only to buried their father Jacob. 

I suppose how not only Joseph, but also all his  brothers and their families, have much privileges in Egypt. And it is possible how they have own slaves for themselves. Question is, why they not went back to Canaan after famine has stooped? They were very wealthy before and they get to be more wealthy in their stay in Egypt. Their father Jacob lived  last 17 years in Egypt before he died (famine lasted 7 years). 

Justified wars? Justified slavery? Justified wealthy? .......etc ????? :))) All these and many more are misconceptions. Misconceptions that we creating and we destroying. Always over again.

 

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On 5/30/2019 at 12:31 PM, Matthew9969 said:

I didn't want to hijack another thread so I'm starting a new one. I haven't seen this topic covered before so I'm presenting it for discussion. Can any war be justified? For example genocidal tyrants started wars for land, which is dumb. The united states started a war with native americans and Mexicans for land. However Hitler started a war and needed to be stopped, so war was used to stop him. Now we have muslim extremist who want to kill everyone who won't bow down to their allah. We got a smart bunch here so I am interested in your thoughts.

Clear your mind, look for your own reasoning. Especially in this area of using the OT in support for comparison. After Christ sacrifice, NO WAR is justifiable under the NT. That, in essence, stopped the progression of Christianity as a means for salvation. The early church fathers and the Papacy decided to use War as a means to exalt themselves. The same standard that is used for any war after Jesus death.  Regardless if it's for land and riches. Resources, genocide, etc. They do it under that banner of God and country. That's an excuse to justify their own evil end.

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Billy:

All you just said is true...but War .. is when the people subjugated, enslaved, have their homes and resources confiscated, etc .... FIGHT BACK.

Otherwise, the Nazis could have politely marched backwards into Poland.

Armed Forces are used to make people do things they don't want to, under pain of death and deprivation.

Self Defense is a NATURAL RIGHT that every living thing has ..... if they can manage it ... and choose to try.

 

 

 

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Under man’s dominion for self-preservation, yes! BUT

When a true Christian fights a good fight for the sovereignty of God and gets killed for it, self-defence doesn’t compute under Bible principles.

Matthew 24:9-10

Witnessing to All Nations

9Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations on account of my name. 10At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another,

Does this look familiar?

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Does a fish actually hate the Eagle that swoops down from the sky and sinks its talons in the side of a fish, to kill and eat?

You are an amazing person Billy.0

The worst case of WDS I have ever seen this side of the mirror, and always wrong about EVERYTHING!

Nothing new here ..... this is universally the case with agenda driven thinking.

None of us are immune to believing lies when we use agenda driven thinking.

 

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