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Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man

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The NWT says at Zechariah 8:23:

23  “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations

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 will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe
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 of a Jew,
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 saying: “We want to go with you,
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 for we have heard that God is with you people.”’”
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I have noticed that one poster in particular has referenced this scripture several times and put it in the context of being able to identify the true religion at the time of the final judgment. The poster admits that in the meantime, he can't really tell who that "Jew" represents. But it is evidently associated in his mind with a group of "truly anointed" persons. By this he evidently means those who are truly led by the holy spirit, who are truly motivated by the holy spirit, and who therefore give proper guidance and to others. They should be giving always healthful, if not "perfect" spiritual food, and always at the proper time.

For that particular poster, this disqualifies the eight or so men who currently claim to be the "faithful and discreet slave" since they admit that their food is not always perfect (and therefore could not qualify as "at the proper time," either.)

When a verse from the "OT" is not specifically repeated in the "NT" with an explanation, we are pretty much on our own to decide whether it has a specific prophetic application to our own day, or to the near future. In many cases the verse will look quite specific, but we can only give it a general application to our own day. In other cases there are specifics, and we can try to make specific applications to those specific references.  Of course, in every case we could look to the overall situation, the historical context, and find either warning examples, teaching examples, or encouragement in the words (2 Tim 3:16,17).

In this case, the historical context is an audience of Jews having trouble getting up the willingness or courage to overcome obstacles related to rebuilding their temple. Some of those obstacles were economic (including bad harvests) and some of it was the fear of encroaching enemies, and more populous nations around them. And some of it was no doubt an overall despondency that it would take too long and never get finished, and thus be a wasted effort. Those kinds of issues are easily generalized into our own personal issues with respect to overcoming obstacles related to our own spiritual goals. They can also be looked at in terms of our willingness to be involved with organizational goals or congregational goals when economics, delays, mistakes, and the despondency of others can take a toll on our own courage.

But what about the Watchtower's usual interpretation of this verse? Is it definitive? Can it mean anything else? These are the kinds of questions that Christians should always ask of everything we believe, if we want to be like the Beroeans, or "make sure of all things."

 

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3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

By this he evidently means those who are truly led by the holy spirit, who are truly motivated by the holy spirit, and who therefore give proper guidance and to others.

I noticed that you skipped/avoided to use one Old, Good, Bible based word -  "inspired". :) 

"Led" is also good Bible word in connection with JHVH and spirit. 


But what is wrong in using word "inspired" in connection with our decisions and works in religious/spiritual matters? 

Motivated as word, looks, seems to be more in connection with our own autonomy and free choice.  

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    Hello guest!

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  would seem to signify people from all over the Earth. 

" By this he evidently means those who are truly led by the holy spirit, who are truly motivated by the holy spirit, and who therefore give proper guidance and to others. "

Well actually I think HE means those that are TRULY ANOINTED OF HOLY SPIRIT, just as the Apostles were. 

And I think HE means that it would be 'visible' in some way, but maybe only to those truly seeking God in a 'pure way'. 

Quote "They can also be looked at in terms of our willingness to be involved with organizational goals or congregational goals when economics, delays, mistakes, and the despondency of others can take a toll on our own courage."

This is very vague and general in it's meanings. " organizational goals or congregational goals " Which organisation and congregations ? 

" mistakes " By whom where and when ? 

 

 

 

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@Srecko Sostar, Yes I avoided the word "inspired" for now, because I think it gets us into another topic with its own complexities. But it is a topic I think we can get to (assuming the topic is of interest to others).

@JOHN BUTLER, I'd like to consider your view of the scripture in detail. Although I wanted to get a baseline for others, so that we are all clear on the Watchtower's interpretation first. On the issue of organizational or congregational goals, I was merely trying to tie it back to the original context of rebuilding the temple, and then use words that remind many of us of the same type of activities in modern times. You could replace it with your own preferred religious terms: ecclesia, church, synagogue, temple, etc. I meant the same idea with mistakes: meaning mistakes by the Jewish people at the time which can remind us of mistakes made in modern times.

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@JW Insider I can read your words but they make no sense to me. 

You seem to be trying to 'hide' that scripture inside a million other words, maybe to discredit the scripture or me. Either way it matters not to me, for my feelings are that anyone reading my words that is truly interested in what I'm saying, will understand exactly where I am coming from. 

That is why TTH and BtK cannot understand me, because they only see things from the JW Org viewpoint. Which in fact, it seems, is where you are seeing things from. 

So, maybe give your interpretation, of, what the Watchtower's interpretation is of that scripture. The reason i say it like that is, because even JW's seem to disagree on matters of scripture and W/t interpretations. 

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Regarding the Watchtower's interpretation, a simple and recent explanation is found in the introduction to a 'life experience' article from 2012.

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When I was in my early teens, two Bible passages struck me. Today, over 70 years later, I can still remember the time when I grasped the meaning of 

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, which speaks of “ten men” taking hold of “the skirt of a man who is a Jew.” They tell the Jew: “We will go with you people, for we have heard that God is with you people.”

THE Jewish man symbolizes anointed Christians, and the “ten men” represent the “other sheep,” or “Jonadabs,” as they were known back then. 

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 (
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) When I understood that truth, I realized how much the fulfillment of my hope to live forever on earth depends upon my loyal support of the anointed class.

Jesus’ illustration of “the sheep” and “the goats,” found at 

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, also deeply impressed me. “The sheep” picture those who receive a favorable judgment during the time of the end because they do good to Christ’s anointed brothers still on earth. As a young Jonadab, I said to myself, ‘Len, if you want to be viewed by Christ as a sheep, you’ve got to support his anointed brothers, accepting their leadership because God is with them.’ That understanding has guided me during more than seven decades.

I should note that a few people have come to think that the March 15, 2015 Watchtower indicated that there are no longer any specific classes of people that are identified by prophecies. So they might wonder why the Jew represents anointed Christians and the 'ten men' specifically represent the 'other sheep.' That 2015 article, and this new understanding, was really intended to help us avoid the problem of arbitrarily making up specific applications of interpretation for every Bible parable and historical occurrence, and saying it was the ONLY correct application. Prophecies (like Zechariah) are still considered fair game for interpreting specific applications to classes of people today.

(The Watchtower makes exceptions, and still uses the parable-as-prophecy motif for the "sheep and goats" parable, and, of course, the "faithful and discreet slave" parable. There is one other possible parable-as-prophecy exception, but this one is in a prophetic book, Daniel 4's tree dream parable/prophecy.)

The idea of only using a historical occurrence in the Bible to only say it "reminds" us of a certain thing, rather than "it must represent this particular thing" was used in the same life experience article mentioned above. For example:

. . . she gave me the parcel and left. It contained a warm overcoat. Her loving gesture reminded me of Hannah bringing her young son Samuel a coat while he was serving at the tabernacle.—

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.

And again at the end of the article:

Just before his death, Jesus told his disciples: “You will not always have me” with you. (

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) We other sheep are also aware that we will not always have Christ’s anointed brothers among us on earth. I count it, therefore, an inestimable privilege to have been closely associated for over 70 years with many of the anointed—gratefully holding on to the skirt of a Jew.

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59 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You seem to be trying to 'hide' that scripture inside a million other words, maybe to discredit the scripture or me.

No. It's just me. Just so we're 'on the same page' about what the WT says on the subject. (Because we are on a JW forum.) Whether it's right or wrong or somewhere in between can be discussed later. Also, to provide a bit of 'methodology' about how the WT handles prophetic interpretation.

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9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

have noticed that one poster in particular has referenced this scripture several times and put it in the context of being able to identify the true religion at the time of the final judgment. The poster admits that in the meantime, he can't really tell who that "Jew" represents. But it is evidently associated in his mind with a group of "truly anointed" persons. By this he evidently means those who are truly led by the holy spirit, who are truly motivated by the holy spirit, and who therefore give proper guidance and to others. They should be giving always healthful, if not "perfect" spiritual food, and always at the proper time.

For that particular poster, this disqualifies the eight or so men who currently claim to be the "faithful and discreet slave" since they admit that their food is not always perfect (and therefore could not qualify as "at the proper time," either.)

Since when did a self-imposed royal priest (witness) has made biblical sense to you, that you exalt that person over God's decision to choose who will represent him on earth? Spiritual wisdom is needed. Where is it with that person

You are speaking of a shameful insight if anyone accepts your words since there is no one more qualified to pick and choice earthly representatives than God himself. Certainly, "witness" that doesn't understand scripture disqualifies that individual as a beckon of light, and certainly NOT part of Christ Body with the Hate such a person harbors in their heart.

The fact you don't understand certain things, you are desperately trying to understand about the end of days doesn't mean no one else understands the signs. That just means, God Holy Spirit has taken away that privilege from your heart because it has grown cold and conflicted. So, stop trying, your wasting your time on that.

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6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So, maybe give your interpretation, of, what the Watchtower's interpretation is of that scripture.

I think the Watchtower's interpretation is clear. In many ways it matches up with yours, John.

The WT interpretation is that the "Jew" is the truly anointed class of Christians, and the "ten men" are persons out of all the nations who are not of the anointed class but who look to them for guidance, a good example, etc. These non-anointed are shown joining with these anointed in some way.

Historically, if we were to accept that the truly anointed persons were represented by the 'governing leaders' of the Bible Students / Jehovah's Witnesses in the last century or so, then the very fact that they were joined (beginning especially around 1935) by a much larger group who then identified themselves as non-anointed seems like a perfect fulfillment.

It is easy to see why, in that 2012 life experience article, a person of the "great crowd" who was obviously very enamored with his periodic association with members of the anointed, felt that he was seeing this prophecy fulfilled in his own case. Several of those anointed with whom he had repeated contact served on the Governing Body, or would later serve on the Governing Body. This was clearly a sub-theme of the 2012 Watchtower article based on the following quotes/excerpts:

  • but also several anointed brothers, including Pryce Hughes, Edgar Clay, and Jack Barr, who became a member of the Governing Body.
  • One of my fellow students, Lloyd Barry; one of the instructors, Albert Schroeder; and John Booth, overseer of Kingdom Farm (where Gilead School was located) later became members of the Governing Body.
  • During that time, I got to know such pillars as Milton Henschel, Karl Klein, Nathan Knorr, T. J. (Bud) Sullivan, and Lyman Swingle, all of whom once served on the Governing Body.
  • I have had the privilege of periodically returning to world headquarters in New York. During those visits, I received good advice from different members of the Governing Body.

So, while the "Jew" represents the anointed class, we are subtly reminded that the anointed class is represented by the Governing Body, considered to be the core representatives of "Christ's brothers."

In the past, of course, when one said "Christ's brothers are the faithful slave" it meant all of the anointed.

*** w09 10/15 p. 16 par. 15 “You Are My Friends” ***
Therefore, the primary way that those with the earthly hope demonstrate their desire to be friends with Christ is by supporting the faithful slave class.

Technically, the "Jew" in Zechariah still does mean all of the anointed, not just the GB. But even before the doctrinal change making them the same entity, the Governing Body had already pointed to themselves as the ones  representing the faithful slave. 

*** ws11 7/15 p. 24 par. 9 Have You Entered Into God’s Rest? ***
They show us that Jehovah is using the faithful and discreet slave to teach us the truth. Sometimes the Governing Body, who represents the faithful and discreet slave, reviews how we understand certain truths.

So the "Jew" in Zechariah 8 is not just another representation of the Governing Body. But based on the above, it is still intended to be the practical conclusion, when it comes to defining who, we, the "other sheep" firmly hang onto for guidance and direction.

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2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Since when did a self-imposed royal priest (witness) has made biblical sense to you

I was referring to John Butler as the person who has repeatedly referenced the "10 men who take hold of the skirt of a Jew." I hadn't realized it if "Witness" had also repeatedly referenced this. 

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I am adding more here to give the simplest view of what the "Governing Body" believes about those who claim to be anointed.

The most recent article that explains the scripture makes this point by asking a seemingly silly question.

*** ws16 January p. 21 “We Want to Go With You” ***
DO WE NEED TO KNOW THE NAMES OF ALL TODAY WHO ARE ANOINTED?

. . . . This means that the Jew is not just one person but represents the whole group of anointed ones. The other sheep know this, and they serve Jehovah along with that group. They do not need to know the names of every member of that group and follow each one of them.

No one thinks that the truly anointed are ONLY in the Governing Body. However, the only anointed that we are asked to follow cannot practically be ALL the anointed all around the world. In fact we are warned against giving too much attention to "just any" member of the anointed. And, by the same token, any member of the anointed would be out of place to ask for special attention. This might seem wrong, but that is clearly going to help avoid schisms, power struggles, and help drive peace and unity in the congregation.

The article goes on to point this out:

*** ws16 January p. 22 par. 6 “We Want to Go With You” ***
Jehovah’s holy spirit helps his servants to be humble, not proud. (Colossians 3:12) So anointed ones do not think that they are better than others. They know that Jehovah does not necessarily give anointed ones more holy spirit than he gives his other servants. And they do not feel that they can understand Bible truths more deeply than anyone else.

*** ws16 January p. 22 par. 7 “We Want to Go With You” ***
Although anointed ones feel that it is an honor to be invited to go to heaven, they do not expect others to treat them in a special way. .... So an anointed person is not surprised if some do not believe right away that he has been anointed. He realizes that the Bible tells us not to be quick to believe someone who says that God has given him a special responsibility.

*** ws16 January p. 22 par. 8 “We Want to Go With You” ***
Anointed Christians do not feel that they should spend time only with other anointed ones, as if they were members of a club. They do not try to find other anointed ones so that they can talk about being anointed or meet in groups to study the Bible. (Galatians 1:15-17) The congregation would not be united if anointed ones did this. They would be working against the holy spirit, which helps God’s people to have peace and unity.—Read Romans 16:17, 18.

The article actually offers some reasons why we would not immediately trust that someone who claims to be anointed truly is anointed. Ultimately, this all points to reasons to focus our attention on the Governing Body (faithful and discreet slave) as the identified representatives of the anointed.

*** ws16 January pp. 23-25 “We Want to Go With You” ***
DO WE NEED TO WORRY ABOUT THE NUMBER?
12 For many years, the number of those who ate the bread and drank the wine at the Memorial kept going down. But recently, that number has been going up every year. Do we need to worry about this? No. Let us see why not.
13 “Jehovah knows those who belong to him.” (2 Timothy 2:19) Unlike Jehovah, the brothers who count the number of people eating the bread and drinking the wine at the Memorial do not know who truly is anointed. So the number includes those who think that they are anointed but are not. For example, some who used to eat the bread and drink the wine later stopped. Others may have mental or emotional problems and believe that they will rule with Christ in heaven. Clearly, we do not know exactly how many anointed ones are left on earth.
. . .  During the last days, Jehovah has continued to choose people who will be part of the 144,000. (See endnote.) So if God decides to choose some of these just before the end, surely we would not doubt that he is doing the right thing. (Isaiah 45:9; Daniel 4:35; read Romans 9:11, 16.) (See endnote.) We must be careful not to react like the workers who complained about the way their master treated those who started working in the last hour.—Read Matthew 20:8-15.
16 Not all who have the hope of living in heaven are part of “the faithful and discreet slave.” (Matthew 24:45-47) Just as in the first century, Jehovah and Jesus today are using a few people to feed, or teach, many. Only a few anointed Christians in the first century were used to write the Christian Greek Scriptures. And today, only a few anointed Christians have the responsibility to give God’s people “food at the proper time.”

Clearly "some of these" claimants are considered truly anointed. But we have no way of knowing who is and who isn't. And even if we did, we would not give them special attention, nor would they give each other special attention, even if they have been known to serve faithfully for long periods of time.

One of the reasons for the emphasis on the Governing Body is so that we can say we have identified the truly anointed persons who can properly represent the other anointed persons, and therefore by following and hanging onto their "robe" we (the other sheep) are properly hanging onto the skirt of the Jew.

I know you, John, don't believe that the GB represent the "Jew" in the Zechariah prophecy, or that they represent "Christ's brothers" in Matthew. But I think you can see why it makes perfect sense to most Witnesses. It makes sense historically in a way that no other religion can point to in their recent past. And it makes sense practically if one accepts the belief that a Governing Body should represent all the rest of the anointed.

I am not claiming that this is the only way to look at it. (For reasons I can explain later.) But I do think we should acknowledge the reasons it makes so much sense to most Witnesses.

Your own arguments against it, I think, boil down to the fact you say that the GB have "allowed" child sexual abuse by not doing enough about it, and that the shunning doctrine is unchristian, and that some (much?) of the provided spiritual food has been not good spiritually. But since you have not been able to discover another anointed person or group that non-anointed should "take hold of," then Witnesses would simply respond with 'where else should they go?' Do you really know a group that represents something better? If it were just a matter of a few who feel this way leaving the JWs, what would that accomplish exactly? 

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I wonder why the Anointed of God, although self admittedly NOT inspired of God, the ones supplying "food at the proper time", etc., seem to be completely devoid of common sense of any kind, on any subject.

They have been struggling with the CSA problem for YEARS now, and are seemingly no closer to a solution than they were five years ago.

IT'S NOT THAT HARD !!!!!

This is NOT Quantum Chromodynamics!

 

ALWAYS REPORT CSA.jpg

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I wonder why the Anointed of God, although self admittedly NOT inspired of God, the ones supplying "food at the proper time", etc., seem to be completely devoid of common sense of any kind, on any subject.

2019-05-30_021209.jpg

Would you want a Surgeon who was equally good at what he does, as the GB is at what they do?

I might consider closing a wound with Vise-Grip pliers, and Duct Tape, instead!

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10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

They tell the Jew: “We will go with you people, for we have heard that God is with you people.”

I found this interesting: They heard. They heard, question is From Whom? Hear and say? 

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

So, while the "Jew" represents the anointed class, we are subtly reminded that the anointed class is represented by the Governing Body, considered to be the core representatives of "Christ's brothers."

This same "Jew" aka GB are those who made self claim about their appointed position in 1919 and they told this to the people who joined them in this belief and in other various beliefs.

In Parallel time/moment this "joined" people (later called great crowed) went to the streets to actively inform other people, worldly people and told them how they know this particular "Jews" who are baked by god himself and ask them to join in Proclamation about this.

Well, impetus about WHO are JEWS, was made/generated by "self" appointed Bible Students in 1919. The Word; "God is with you" is not came by god's revelation to worldly people who later join the organization. No, the words came from Not Inspired, Doctrinal and Instructional Error Prone source.    

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@JW Insider  Wow, so much to try to answer. 

However I'm glad you mentioned this bit  Others may have mental or emotional problems 

The GB / Writing department actually wrote this. AND NOW we see people such a s TTH and BtK using it.

Anyone that disagrees with the GB / JW Org are seen as having mental or emotional problems.  Do you honestly think the GB / Writing dept' didn't know that this would become the norm' ? This is how low they have sunken. 

Next :- The GB / Org says about the Anointed. 

 They know that Jehovah does not necessarily give anointed ones more holy spirit than he gives his other servants. And they do not feel that they can understand Bible truths more deeply than anyone else.

What utter nonsense. What the GB are really saying here is that THEY do not understand the Bible because THEY do not have the Holy Spirit from God. 

There would be NO POINT in following the JEW if the JEW didn't know the right direction. If others that are not Anointed know and understand as much or even more about God's word, and it the same others were receiving as much or more Holy Spirit from God then why would those others want to go in the wrong direction just to follow So called anointed that haven't got a clue ? Do you see how your GB / Writing department make themselves look so stupid ? 

The Watchtower / GB / JW Org put in such a very poor argument for the GB being superior to the other Anointed. 

As I think you mentioned (well you did write a lot :) ) the 'Faithful and discreet slave class' are the complete number of Anointed here on Earth at this time, BUT in my opinion, the GB have exalted themselves above the other Anointed still on earth. The scripture at Luke 14 v11 'For everyone that exalts himself will be humbled ...'  I think your GB are in for a big fall.

Again your GB / Writing dept write :- 

Although anointed ones feel that it is an honor to be invited to go to heaven, they do not expect others to treat them in a special way. ...

Um, the GB, DO expect others to treat them in a special way, because the GB expect every JW to follow them and to believe their every word. 

Quote you :  the Governing Body had already pointed to themselves as the ones  representing the faithful slave. 

*** ws11 7/15 p. 24 par. 9 Have You Entered Into God’s Rest? ***
They show us that Jehovah is using the faithful and discreet slave to teach us the truth. Sometimes the Governing Body, who represents the faithful and discreet slave, reviews how we understand certain truths.

Don't really need much more proof positive that the GB are acting as dictators here. Telling congregants not to make contact with others of the Anointed. Telling the others of the Anointed not to make contact with each other. Telling all congregants that only they, the GB, have the right to give instruction to the JW Org and all its members. 

Sorry I have to go to an auction now to collect a few things I've won. Talk again later, John 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I found this interesting: They heard. They heard, question is From Whom? Hear and say? 

There was evidently no voice booming from heaven in the original context. I get the sense that it was by reputation. Not even that the nation of Israel was out there trying to make proselytes (converts) but that it was by reputation people were hearing good things about Israel.

It was based on a common promise that is found many times in the prophetic books: if the Israelites continue to forsake their spiritual heritage (temple, law, etc) then they will be punished, but if they continue in the ways of Jehovah's law, they will be blessed. In this case, blessed so much that surrounding nations will hear that God is with them, and people from those nations will want to become Israelites, too.

We know that the original context is that Jehovah is "jealous" or "zealous" to have his name and reputation known through his people from Zion (Jerusalem) again. And even though he has punished Judah and Israel for sins, he does not regret it. But now is time for a fresh start, and if they handle it right this time, their blessings will be so great as to attract other nations, too.

In fact, in the next chapter (Zech 9) the examples were to start with "the eyes of man" in Syrian cities to the north, even reaching to Damascus, then 120 miles north of Damascus (Hamath) and even on to Phoenician cities of Tyre and Sidon. 

In some limited sense this probably happened as Jews scattered by Babylon 70 years earlier, and Israelites scattered by Assyria nearly 200 years earlier, had settled into these nations all around, but would now want to firmly take hold of those blessings upon true Jews in Jerusalem. Persons they had married, and even proselytes and foreigners would want to join them too. Over the next few hundred years, by the time of Herod and Jesus, in fact, we know of many Jewish proselytes, and strong support of Judaism throughout all parts of the Roman Empire. The LXX from Egypt became a well-read "OT" Bible that was known across the empire. Even a couple of Caesars were friends of Herod, and some wives of prominent Roman leaders took a strong interest in the religion Judaism. Ancient synagogues have been found with inscribed names of Roman patrons who would have provided much of the funding for these synagogues.

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20 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

However I'm glad you mentioned this bit  Others may have mental or emotional problems 

The GB / Writing department actually wrote this. AND NOW we see people such a s TTH and BtK using it.

The GB use the argument that many are fed by the hands of a few --and only 8 "NT" Bible writers fed the entire 1st century congregations. And since you can't practically follow many different anointed persons, at least there is a practical way to follow a few. One of the points is that you can't necessarily trust that just any person who claims to be anointed is truly anointed. There really are many claimants that most Witnesses would consider to be just people with mental or emotional problems. Most of us have known such persons in our local congregations. I think this is already a 'given' that other Witnesses realize and the GB are acknowledging it. Of course, it's clear that the GB use this fact with the purpose of adding evidence that only a few persons can really be trusted to represent the anointed. This should lead us to agree with them that Jesus trusts the faithful slave [Governing Body] and therefore we should, too.

30 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Anyone that disagrees with the GB / JW Org are seen as having mental or emotional problems.  Do you honestly think the GB / Writing dept' didn't know that this would become the norm' ? This is how low they have sunken.

This is a product, unfortunately, of being so absolutely sure one has the truth. Anyone who would deviate from obvious, rational truth must have a deviant mind. They'd have to be crazy to give up on all the truth based on a few mistakes here and there. Anyone who does so is some kind of apostate, like a dog returning to his vomit, and must be "mentally diseased."

I agree that this is a dangerous result of the reminder (acknowledgment) that SOME really do have mental or emotional problems, and we should be wary of giving anything they say too much importance. You will notice that whenever I say something that differs from the GB's current teachings in the WT, that someone like BTK will surely be around to try to discredit it so that no one gives it too much importance.

(I think this is actually a safeguard so that no one takes only my own opinions and experiences as something to follow without questioning them first. I welcome the push back, especially when it can help me to further endeavor to make sure of all things.)

41 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

They know that Jehovah does not necessarily give anointed ones more holy spirit than he gives his other servants. And they do not feel that they can understand Bible truths more deeply than anyone else.

You say that this is an admission by the GB that they don't really have holy spirit to understand the Bible. It's probably more of a caution not to give just anyone a 'pass.' We shouldn't quote someone who says they are anointed on some doctrinal point, just because we heard it from an 'anointed' person. But the word "necessarily" probably also reminds us that some anointed might get more holy spirit than others, a possible way of saying that we could expect the GB to get more holy spirit to understand Bible truths whenever Jehovah deems it necessary.

45 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Do you see how your GB / Writing department make themselves look so stupid ? 

I don't think they are saying they don't have a clue. I think they are actually (overall) saying to trust them for now, even though things can still become better and clearer, but definitely don't just automatically trust any person claiming to be anointed who disagrees with us. This is practical advice for unity. It might not ALWAYS be the correct advice in all circumstances, but elsewhere they have already admitted that not all their advice will turn out to be correct or Biblical. But then again, what religion can you think of where people are told to just follow anyone who claims authority of some kind?

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1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As I think you mentioned (well you did write a lot :) ) the 'Faithful and discreet slave class' are the complete number of Anointed here on Earth at this time, BUT in my opinion, the GB have exalted themselves above the other Anointed still on earth.

I probably wasn't clear. The Watchtower considered the 'faithful and discreet slave' to be the complete number of anointed here on the earth (from about 1879 to 1897, and then again from about 1927 to 2011). But recently it has become a small, identifiable group of persons we can know individually by name: the members of the Governing Body. (Between 1897 and 1927 it was taught to be one person we could know individually by name: Charles T. Russell.)

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I probably wasn't clear. The Watchtower considered the 'faithful and discreet slave' to be the complete number of anointed here on the earth (from about 1879 to 1897, and then again from about 1927 to 2011). But recently it has become a small, identifiable group of persons we can know individually by name: the members of the Governing Body. (Between 1897 and 1927 it was taught to be one person we could know individually by name: Charles T. Russell.)

What a complete contradiction in full. 

It just proves to anyone that has common sense that the GB have exalted themselves. And it is so funny that this 'organisation' that you seem to trust sooooo much, keeps changing its mind on things of scripture. 

BTK seems to think that the GB always follow scripture, yet it can be clearly seen that the GB are always changing the meanings of the scriptures they use. This is only one example.

Quote The GB use the argument that many are fed by the hands of a few --and only 8 "NT" Bible writers fed the entire 1st century congregations. Um, it seems you are saying that just because only 8 men wrote the NT writings, that only those 8 men 'fed the entire 1st century congregations. Did the others retire then or go on holiday?

There were at least 13 Apostles, because Judas was replaced, and then Paul was given direct instruction form Christ. Are you saying that the rest of these men did not feed the 1st century congregations ?  Just because they were not used to write what we have now as scripture does not mean they did not feed the congregations at that time. I would presume much more was done by word of mouth than in writing.  

However i can see here in your words that you are just a spokesperson for the GB /JW Org / W/t, and that you do not consider any other possibilities. I'm glad I left the 'Org' so that I have opened my mind to consider all things. I do admit that I've not found any real answers but that does not mean i would blindly follow '8 men'. 8 men that have no proof whatsoever that they have any authority from God or Jesus Christ. 

 

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5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

There was evidently no voice booming from heaven in the original context. I get the sense that it was by reputation. Not even that the nation of Israel was out there trying to make proselytes (converts) but that it was by reputation people were hearing good things about Israel.

Voice from heaven? I do not think even the greatest believer among JW would expect a voice from heaven. :)) It is out of sense to even have a little thought/idea about such possibility. Of, course some of WT magazine editors and members maybe have such idea, and send spiritual vibrations to readers, how JHVH somehow whispering  to writers of WT publication, what to put in columns. 

Reputation. That is of course very important. Jericho citizens also heard about Israel reputation. How they are successful warriors and destroying all on their way. In this case fear about own life was motivated non-Jew tribes to take military reputation of Israel in consideration. 

Reputation of modern Congregation in this last two century, showed some results that worldly people take as important. On other hand,  WTJWORG preoccupation about own reputation bring on light many issues of not transparency and even hiding of things that is bad.

PR through publishers and publication want to show only "bright side" of WT Organizations/Corporations and JW religion. Not talking openly about "taboo issues" and negativity of Instructional and Doctrinal rules, beliefs not bring to positive reputation.  

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