Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man

[TrueTomHarley]

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It reminds us that converts aren't just made from a door to door ministry. 

I like the online study feature on the website. I like the cart witnessing. I do wish that we were not so all-over-the-board with the door-to-door but would more-or-less settle on a consistent presentation, like working with the Good News brochure—‘15 chapters, 15 hour discussions, after which you have a working knowledge of the Bible—not everything, but a foundation. It’s what we offer—do you want it or not?’

This incremental doorstop study approach doesn’t work for me. I have little patience for it. It’s too hard to find people home to string several together. In view of the new privacy laws taking effect, the method is even going to be harder to pursue.

And I like the idea that once you engage with people in any way and that they come to learn of your faith, everything that you do becomes a witness.

Not to divert from you thread, though (as I sometimes do) Continue.

[JOHN BUTLER]

Not to divert from you thread, though (as I sometimes do) Continue

TTH, you just did, totally off topic  

But why not just use the BIBLE, isn't it the Bible that is supposed to inspire people. 

By using a 'brochure' you are just doing what i said JW's do, acting as a parrot for the GB.

Hebrews 4:12 New International Version (NIV)

^"12For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."

Now that is where the truth is, in God's word, not in any brochure made up by earthling man. 

[JW Insider]

38 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I do wish that we were not so all-over-the-board with the door-to-door but would more-or-less settle on a consistent presentation

One size fits all is not necessarily a good approach either, as everyone is at a different stage of knowledge, readiness, etc.

Back when I was so sure we were right about everything in every detail I felt comfortable working college/university housing territory with an improvised presentation that went something like this, depending on the student's style of speaking:

. . . A lot of people of religious faiths might come up to you claim that they aren't here to convert you. But listen, I'll admit that we are; and it's because we are sure we are right, and we're sure it's important. I know that's easy to say, but it's why we'd like to prove it. So we offer free home Bible studies at your convenience to fit your own schedule. This way, in case you don't believe us, you can ask us anything you want and we'll get an answer to all your Bible questions.

It was a bit heady and haughty, but I could literally start more "Bible Studies" than I knew what to do with. I was giving away "Bible Studies" to other pioneers, and a day of 4 or 5 Bible Studies was easier than cart witnessing is today. One month I had 20 Bible Studies (and even got counseled over it by our Circuit Overseer because my magazine placements were down). A few of these students became Witnesses, and two of them even came to NYC to visit me at Bethel and in my NYC congregation.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I actually said it could not BE the GB of the JW Org. I don't remember saying it could not be any group like ... 

I know, but it's still related. Do you expect it to be a group LIKE the GB in the sense of a group of leaders of a certain religion, or leaders who promote a certain set of specific doctrines, but whom you accept because they also give evidence you can accept of being "anointed." I think you imply that the GB claim to be inspired (although they would never use those exact words). Would you expect the person(s) who fit the actual "Jew" of Zechariah to claim to be inspired?

[Witness]

10 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

That’s the beauty of it, witness. You don’t have to follow the Watchtower GB as a blasphemer of God’s Holy Spirit. Remember, your self-imposed anointing is personally telling God DIRECTLY, you are willing to ONLY obey certain aspects of his commandments.

You absolutely don't make sense.  I gave you the link from the JW website that shows what Watchtower has taught about the Body of Christ - that it is comprised of the anointed ones.  Today, in word, (maybe in print also) they teach differently than what they have written in their publications in the past.  They speak out of both sides of their mouth and you are choosing their most recent LIE.  Why would I chose to follow the GB's twisted path?  Why do YOU?  Their teachings are blaspheming the Holy Spirit.  They are no different than the Pharisees - a brood of vipers.  Matt 12:34  If you could only see how confused you are by following these men.  

[JOHN BUTLER]

47 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I know, but it's still related. Do you expect it to be a group LIKE the GB in the sense of a group of leaders of a certain religion, or leaders who promote a certain set of specific doctrines, but whom you accept because they also give evidence you can accept of being "anointed." I think you imply that the GB claim to be inspired (although they would never use those exact words). Would you expect the person(s) who fit the actual "Jew" of Zechariah to claim to be inspired?

So did you deliberately misquote me ?  If you did it doesn't matter. 

I suppose I expect the Anointed to be leaders as that scripture says that the earthly class 'will go with them'. 

And yes I expect the Anointed to be the ones that form the true way of serving God for all of those here on Earth that truly want to serve God properly. I don't like the word 'religion' as it is used as a 'pigeon hole' or a tag. 

Why do you think I imply that the GB claim to be inspired, when I know they put in writing that they are not inspired. 

It is because they are not inspired that they cannot be the true Anointed Faithful slave. This is proven by their actions and writings, rules and denials, misuse of scripture, misinterpretation of scripture, ad infinitum ..... 

I would expect that the true Anointed would clearly be seen to be such, by their actions, words, encouragement, love, honesty, respect, understanding of others, willingness to help others, again, ad infinitum... 

In the 1960's I was a Mod. Now there is a stupidity in that film Quadrophenia that shows Mods shouting 'We are the Mods We are the Mods', but in truth in my hometown we did not go around telling people that we were Mods. We didn't need to, people could see by our 'way of life'  that we were Mods.

This is how I think the True Anointed would be, clearly seen to be such, and in many countries, so that people could approach them to 'follow them'. Like I've said communication Earthwide is so simple now. Well you are reading this and you are on the other side of the Earth, so point proven.

Must go,  parcels to post, busy life  

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Dear Librarian. I have no idea why my post came out twice. Please delete one of them for the purpose of saving space. Thank You

If you want to save hard drive space, consider doing all your typing in lower case letters, and saw off the end of your computer table, so the mouse won't have so long to travel.

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

TTH, you just did, totally off topic

what I meant is that I don’t plan to pursue it. 

However, JWI himself responded, so I will. He has extraordinary powers granted him by the Librarian (that old hen). He can divide into a separate thread if he wants to.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

“ A lot of people of religious faiths might come up to you claim that they aren't here to convert you. But listen, I'll admit that we are; and it's because we are sure we are right, and we're sure it's important. 

One college kid asked, when I proposed coming back, “To what end?” It was a question  I’d not been asked before.

I explained that in my ideal scenario I would return 100 times and engage in 100 different conversations and on the 101st I would ask him if he wanted to be a Jehovah’s Witness like me and at that time he should say ‘No.’ 

I even asked him to rehearse. “Let me show you how it would work. I am going to ask you to become a Witness like me and I want you to say “No.” Would you do that? He agreed. 

“Would you like to become a Witness?” I asked. “No,” he said.

“You see? Nothing to worry about. It’s just conversation. You’ll learn your way around the Bible in the meantime. The moment you tire of it, just let me know. No one is easier to get rid of than Tommy.”

The anticult people try to spin our calls as “recruiting.” That’s why the outrage some have over the recent letter expressing condolences over someone’s loss. If they just took it at face value, they’d be okay with it. We should not let those scoundrels define the game.

Are we “recruiting?” I suppose so, but in the most non-threatening way possible, so that only by really stretching the point could we be said to be doing it. And it is not an immediate goal—telling the good news of the kingdom is. College is far more indoctrinating than anything having to do with Jehovah’s Witnesses. The typical student is separated 24/7 from his or her previous stabilizing routine and people—a classic tool of brainwashing.

(I didn’t actually go through the rehearsal with him. Our best lines always occur to us too late. But that does not mean that I won’t do it when the situation is right.)

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Don't wait for "the situation to be right", TTH, take control!

You could skulk around college gymnasiums, and find the loners and nerd types, even better if they are nerdy loners ...  and offer them beer if they will study the Bible with you,  and try to form relationships. I understand that college kids like beer.

If a college is too far away,  perhaps you can start earlier at Elementary Schools.

Offer them candy. I understand kids LOVE candy.

In the current social environment, what could go wrong?

[JW Insider]

7 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

As I mentioned, you write certain truths with certain half-truths and then mix it with your personal opinion.

Not at all. Everything I said was a FULL truth about what the WT taught, or a FULL truth about what others think, or a FULL truth about my own opinion. No half-truths.

7 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

The composition of the Body of Christ is the church. Who do you see within that church that can’t be part of Jesus body, and why?

Yes. The Body of Christ is the "Church" and there is a sense in which everyone in the "Church" is part of Jesus' body, so I would never disagree with this or claim that they could not.

7 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Since the New Jerusalem is a heavenly kingdom? What “great crowd” are you referring to?

The "great crowd" mentioned in Revelation chapters 7 and 19, and who are also referenced again in chapters 21 and 22. Scripturally, they appear to be part of the heavenly kingdom, the New Jerusalem, because they are spiritual Israelites, too.

7 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

In some theological writings, the term Bond-Servant is used.

True. But you don't give any context to why you mentioned this. The closest we came to discussing servants is the mention that the 'great crowd' render sacred service in the inner sanctuary of the temple. (Elsewhere the Watchtower associates the inner sanctuary, naos, with heaven itself.) But in the context of this particular great crowd we actually do not have the mention of 'bond servant.' We do know that elsewhere, the anointed Christians are referred to in some contexts as "bond servants." Even the person we identify as an angel in Revelation 19:10 is also a "doulos" or "bond servant" (and he tells John not to worship him). All Christians should humbly be able to see themselves as "good for nothing slaves" in comparison to the glory of God's kingdom. Christians should recognize themselves as "bond servants" and yet the promise is that Jesus would make the first last and the last first, and therefore can crown these servants as kings in glory, as he sees fit.

7 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Just for clarification in my understanding with your proposal, The “great crowd” and the “other sheep” are one in the same under Biblical understanding, while it can also be said that out of the flock, there are anointed ones poised to receive a great responsibility to shepherd both in Jesus Absence.

I agree that this makes sense, and it is a part of what I presented earlier.

7 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Let’s look at this one example. Here, it can be confusing on how you worded your thought.

It looks like you are giving an example of how I might have added some confusion here, but the problem is that you left off the introductory part of the same paragraph. If it can make it simpler, I'll just highlight some main points here:

[In my opinion, for what it's worth]

• During his earthly ministry, Jesus and his disciples were sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
• In John 10:16 Jesus refers to "other sheep" outside of that fold (Israel) which he would later bring into the same flock. These would therefore be persons of the nations, the gentiles, who would also share in the same promises of anointing and son.
• (It shouldn't be surprising that Jesus would make such a momentous announcement to his disciples as this becomes a major theme of the scriptures after Jesus is resurrected.)
• Paul makes a similar point about how the two folds become one in Ephesians 2:14 ("For he is our peace, the one who made the two groups one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off.") And Paul explains that until recently the nations had been fenced off from the nation of Israel, but now the two groups are one.
• Since this was such an important event in the history of Christianity, it appears in Revelation 7 symbolically as a "great crowd" of persons who serve in heaven with the same white robes associated with the Bride of Christ. In comparison with the limited number of Israelites who had come in, the great crowd of persons who come out of every nation are innumerable.

So, as I said, the other sheep and the great crowd appear to refer to the same group of anointed persons from all nations who join their Israelite brothers in New Jerusalem, a spiritual Mt Zion, made up of both Jews and Greeks (gentiles):

(Galatians 3:26-29) . . .You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.

Interestingly, according to the NWT, the New Jerusalem in Revelation is said to be nearly TWO MILLION square miles, and the entire structure is TWO AND A  HALF BILLION cubic miles. That's a city about the size of entire area from New York to North Dakota to Texas to Florida, the whole portion of the United States east of the Rockies. Larger than the entire Roman Empire at its maximum.

But that doesn't matter of course. What might matter is that there is nowhere in the Bible where it limits the number of those who would be anointed or who would serve as heavenly kings and priests to only 144,000. Apparently, although it could be a literal number referring to the full number of Jewish Christians who came in as "first-fruits" it could also be a number that symbolizes these Israelites in the way that the 12,000 from each tribe is clearly just a symbolic number in Revelation 7. Note how Paul refers to the number of Israelites compared to the number from the nations who come into spiritual Israel:

• (Romans 11:11-26) . . .Certainly not! But by [Israel's] false step, there is salvation to people of the nations, to incite them to jealousy. 12 Now if their false step means riches to the world and their decrease means riches to people of the nations, how much more will their [Israel's] full number mean! 13 Now I speak to you who are people of the nations. Seeing that I am an apostle to the nations, I glorify my ministry 14 to see if I may in some way incite my own people to jealousy and save some from among them. . . . 16 Further, if the part of the dough taken as firstfruits is holy, the entire batch is also holy; and if the root is holy, the branches are also. . . . remember that it is not you who bears the root, but the root bears you. 19 You will say, then: “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true! For their lack of faith, they were broken off, but you are standing by faith. Do not be haughty, but be in fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. . . .  23 And they also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them back in. .24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature and were grafted contrary to nature into the garden olive tree, how much more will these who are natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree! For I do not want you to be unaware of this sacred secret, brothers, so that you do not become wise in your own eyes: A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, 26 and in this manner all Israel will be saved.. . .

It is not possible to make this refer to spiritual Israel, because it speaks of Israel's lack of faith being a factor. It speaks of the "natural branches" of Israel. Surely we can't claim that the nations were added in only because "spiritual Israel" lost faith!

Basically, there was a "witness" to Israel, and a "witness" to the nations (gentiles). And this is represented by the natural olive tree and the wild olive tree, all grafted into one tree representing "spiritual" Israel. We have another mention of the two olive trees and two witnesses in Revelation 11:

• (Revelation 11:3, 4) . . .I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth.” These are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth.

• (Galatians 2:7-8) . . .they saw that I had been entrusted with the good news for those who are uncircumcised, just as Peter had been for those who are circumcised— 8 for the one who empowered Peter for an apostleship to those who are circumcised also empowered me for those who are of the nations. . .

Even the two lampstands can be tied back to Paul's and Jesus' illustrations about the Jews and the Gentiles.

• (Luke 2:30-32) . . .because my eyes have seen your means of salvation that you have prepared in the sight of all the peoples, a light for removing the veil from the nations and a glory of your people Israel.”
• (Mt 5:14-16) “You are the light of the world. A city cannot be hid when situated upon a mountain. People light a lamp and set it, not under the measuring basket, but upon the lampstand, and it shines upon all those in the house. Likewise let your light shine before men, that they may see your fine works and give glory to your Father who is in the heavens.”

• (Acts 13:46, 47) . . .Then Paul and Barʹna·bas boldly said to them: “It was necessary for the word of God to be spoken first to you [Israel]. Since you are rejecting it and do not judge yourselves worthy of everlasting life, look! we turn to the nations. 47 For Jehovah has commanded us in these words: ‘I have appointed you as a light of nations, for you to be a salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

And, of course, in the temple sanctuary, only pure olive oil could be used to light the physical lamps.

[TrueTomHarley]

47 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

and offer them beer if they will study the Bible with you,  and try to form relationships. I understand that college kids like beer.

I will offer them moonshine from your still if I can get you to part with any.

By the time kids are sent away to college, they are considered no longer children and capable of interacting with the adult world. If that is not so, then what parent would be so foolish so as to send them away?

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

What fundamental aspect could be drawn from the following?

When you don't reference the sources you copy from, you make it difficult to see the actual questions you are asking and separate it from the material you are merely copying. In this case, it's probably obvious that most of what you copied can be found, verbatim, in the New Oxford Annotated Bible as can be found here, on page 1363: https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0190276061

Other parts you copied can be found verbatim: here, the ESV Global Study Bible: https://books.google.com/books?id=unuwCAAAQBAJ

and/or here: the Scofield Study Bible -ESV found here: https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0195278755

So "what fundamental aspect could be drawn" is the fact that you copied from some commentaries and references. Based on some ideas you mentioned before, I would therefore guess that this was done for reasons you already outlined here:

On 6/4/2019 at 11:50 AM, BillyTheKid46 said:

This site is NOT an academic site to impress anyone.

Therefore, I’m looking for your personal understanding. Don’t use the Watchtower’s understanding as a crutch, express your own.

I assume, then, that you thought that by merely copying a few commentaries, unattributed, that it would make this look like a well-researched academic site, and that it was intended to impress. Since there was nothing of your own in any of that, I assume you also thought that you were using the understanding in these commentaries as a kind of crutch to avoid expressing your own personal understanding.

Then, you did finally add a question of your own, although it makes no sense as a serious question the way it is currently worded. You probably left out some words.

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

In comparison, or fundamentally,  is there a difference with prophecy? I do find many JW’s become confused as to what the Watchtower is trying to relate.

So, going back to some other things you've said on this topic, I assume you might be confused as to what the Watchtower is trying to relate. I say this because the Watchtower has been very clear and simple on this topic, and was quoted here very clearly. Yet, you indicated you didn't realize it was the correct Watchtower explanation, and you apparently thought it was misapplied, as you said in a previous post on in this thread:

17 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Therefore, the understanding expressed by opposers with the 10 men and the Jew is an erred understanding, that the Watchtower has NOT taught as described, by the misapplication of Watchtower literature.