THE TRINITY

[Jesus.defender]

THE TRINITY

Watchtower Teaching: JW arguments against the Trinity are:

i) If Jesus is God, who ran the universe during the three days that Jesus was dead in the grave? Satan had a great chance to take control.

Answer: Jesus’ body died, not His soul or spirit. He along with the Father and the Holy Spirit still ran the universe.

ii) If Jesus is the immortal God, He could not have died.

Answer: The immortal God, by taking on a mortal body, had His mortal body die.

iii) Since God is not a God of confusion (I Corinthians 14:33), it is impossible that the Bible would talk of a God who could not be understood by human reason. JWs claim that the Trinity is incomprehensible and unreasonable. ‘We worship what we know’ (John 4:22).

Answer: Man’s lack of understanding has never stopped new discoveries. What percent of the total knowledge of the universe do you possess? (about zero percent).

Ask: Could there be something about God that you don’t comprehend?(eg: His Trinity?).

iv) The word ‘Trinity’ is not in the Bible.

Answer: Neither is ‘Bible’, ‘organisation’, Kingdom Hall’, chocolate, motor car, etc.

Say to the JW: ‘By this logic you would agree that Kingdom Halls don’t exist either?’

This is shallow reasoning designed to throw the Christian off guard. If it can be proved that the Bible teaches a certain truth, then naming that truth does not make it unbiblical. We should ask: ‘Is the particular teaching in the Bible?’

v) The Watchtower has misrepresented the Trinity doctrine in order to make its denial more plausible. 

They erect a straw man that is easily knocked down.

They call the Trinity a ‘freakish looking, three headed God’ (Let God be True, p 102)
‘This doctrine of three Gods in one God . . .’ (Studies in Scripture, 1899, Vol 5, p 60,61)

Note: Trinitarians do not believe in ‘three Gods in one God’.

They believe in one God, with three co-equal persons in the one Godhead.

1. Refuting the Watchtower’s FALSE Quotes of Early Church Writers

The Watchtower is quite happy to tell lies by inventing statements allegedly made by six Ante-Nicene Church writers who lived before 325 AD. Page 7 of their publication ‘Should you believe in the Trinity?’ Shows the Watchtower’s claims that these ancient writers taught that Jesus Christ was not God. These quotes are FALSE and INVENTED by the Watchtower. They are easily refuted by the photocopied excerpts of the 10 volume set of genuine Ante-Nicene church fathers quotes that prove these early writers strong belief in and defence of the Trinity.

In the Watchtower’s false quotes we notice that:

1) None of these references are given a source, making them nearly impossible to check. It is almost certain that the Watchtower has invented these quotes.
2) Notice the lie of the central bold quote on page 7: ‘There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead’.

We refute this Watchtower lie, and prove beyond doubt that both the Trinity and the full deity of Christ were well known and firmly believed as early as 110 AD as seen from the quotes by the Ante-Nicene (before 325 AD) church fathers which follow the Watchtower quote.

The following quotes are from the 10 Volume set of The Ante-Nicene Fathers, translations of The Writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325, by editors Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, American Reprint of the Edinburgh edition, revised and arranged by A C Coxe, published by W.B.Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, Michigan, reprinted in May 1987.

The Watchtower’s claim that Constantine and the Council of Nicea introduced the deity of Christ and Trinity doctrines in 325 AD is proven false by these pre-325 AD quotes to the contrary:

i) Justin Martyr (110-165 AD),Volume I, page 263: ‘His Son, being God’ Volume I, page 219 Justin Martyr says:: ‘Christ existed as God before the ages’ Volume I, page 264). Justin Martyr says that ‘Christ is Lord and God’.
ii) Irenaeus (120-202 AD) Volume I, page 328 not only shows the NWT to be wrong on John 1:1
but also calls Christ ‘God’
iii) Clement of Alexandria (153-217 AD) In Volume 2, p 468, written in 193 AD, Clement clearly quotes the Holy Trinity as Father, Son & Holy Spirit. page 173
iv) Tertullian (200-250 AD) Volume 3, page 598 page 598 Tertullian against Praxeas, Volume 3, p.606 Tertullian correctly quotes John 1:1, saying that Christ is God. (Volume 3, p. 607) Tertullian again quotes the
Trinity on a fourth occasion. (Vol 4, page 99)
v) Hippolytus (170-236 AD) Volume 5, page 228 mentions the Trinity and quotes John 1:1 correctly.
vi) Origen (185-254 AD) Volume 4, page 255. Twice he quotes the word ‘Trinity’, as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Also on page 258 he quotes the Trinity in ‘Origen de Principiis’, written in 230 AD.
vii) Thaumaturgus (205-265 AD) Volume 6, pages 42, 45

2. Is the Trinity a Pagan Concept? No! Because:

i) The Babylonians and Assyrians believed in triads of gods, which were three separate gods (polytheism) governing other gods. This is totally different from the Trinity of only one God (monotheism) with three persons within the one Godhead.

ii) Triads of gods pre-date Christianity by about 700 years and were far removed from Israel..

iii) Some pagan ideas have some truth in them, such as the pagan Flood legends. Just because pagans spoke of a concept that remotely resembles a biblical concept, does not mean that Christians stole it from the pagans.

iv) JWs quote Hislop’s The Two Babylons to support their case, yet they don’t tell us that Hislop believes in the Trinity, as seen from Hislop’s quote:
‘They all admitted a Trinity, but did they worship the Triune Jehovah?’ (p. 90)

- About 80% of the sources that the WT quotes are from Trinitarians. This begs the question: ‘How can the WT disprove the Trinity by quoting sources who believe the Trinity?

- 15% of their sources are secular works like Encyclopaedia Britannica.

- 5% of WT sources are invalid sources of Biblical truth, eg: sceptics, spiritists, Unitarians.

- The WT always finds some unknown, obscure person to agree with them. They do not examine the credibility of such sources. Most WT sources have no credibility & no authority.

- The WT rarely gives page numbers of its quotes to allow check the source and context.

v) JWs claim they represent the ‘faith once delivered to the saints’. They claim that the Trinity idea was introduced in 325 AD. What they don’t say is that current WT teachings have no precedent in history. They do not say who were the JWs of the first three centuries or later. No early church ‘father’ represented their beliefs. The WT is historically bankrupt.

vi) The WT, by showing a three-headed god, use the ‘straw-man effect’, where they misrepresent what Christians believe, and then proceed to ‘shoot down’ this ‘straw man’.

This is seen in five pictures of three-headed gods which are supposed to represent the God of Christendom. (‘Should you believe in the Trinity’ p 10).

vii) The WT is happy to misquote sources to prove their point.

Consider page 6 ‘Should you believe in the Trinity’, where they misquote the New Encyclopaedia Brittanica by failing to give the full relevant quote. They stop the quote at the asterisk *
‘The Encyclopaedia Britannica (1976 Edition) correctly states:
“Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament”,’
[*They stop the quote here, ignoring the rest of the article which endorses the Trinity:]
‘nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deuteronomy 6:4). The earliest Christians, however, had to cope with the implications of the coming of Jesus Christ and of the presence and power of God among them - ie, the Holy Spirit, whose coming we connected with the celebration of Pentecost.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were associated in such New Testament passages as the Great Commission: ‘Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit’ (Matthew 28:19); and in the apostolic benediction:
‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all’ (2 Cor. 13:14). Thus, the New Testament established the basis for the doctrine of the Trinity.The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.

Any early church council disputes were over fine points of Trinity clarification, such as the substance, nature and omnipotence of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, never over whether the Trinity was right or wrong. The truth of the Trinity was always accepted.

3. Refuting Watchtowers’ wrong application of I Corinthians 14:33

‘for God is not the author of confusion, but of peace . . .’

Watchtower Teaching: JWs say that because God is not the author of confusion, the Trinity doctrine cannot be true because it is so unreasonable. How can the Father, Son and Holy Spirit each be God, and yet there be only one God? It doesn’t make sense to them.

Bible Teaching: Just because one is unable to fully understand something, doesn’t mean that it is false.

i) Finite humans cannot possibly understand everything about the infinite God.

‘How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out.’ (Romans 11:33)

‘For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts’. (Isaiah 55:8,9)

ii) Can you fully understand how light can be both a particle of matter and a wave form?

iii) Can you fully understand how God did not have a beginning? (No) Do you reject the idea?

Ask: Should we reject the Trinity doctrine because we don’t fully understand it, when we accept other things about God and the universe which we don’t fully understand.

I Corinthians 14:33 means that a church should avoid disharmony in its services by only
having two or three prophets speak in a service, and only one at a time.
‘Confusion’ means ‘parts of a whole which are at strife with one another’.
‘Peace’ means ‘parts of a whole acting in harmony’.

5. Refuting WT’s misunderstanding of Deuteronomy 6:4 and Mark 12:29

‘Hear,O Israel, the Lord (YHWH) our God (Elohim) is one Lord (YHWH).’ (Deut 6:4)

Watchtower teaching: JWs say that, since God is one, He cannot be Triune at the same time. Why would God speak as one person if He were composed of three persons?

Bible teaching: The ordinary name of God (Elohim) is in the plural form ‘Hear, O, Israel, Jehovah our Elohim, one Jehovah.’ Deut.6:4

If God had intended to assert a solitary, exclusive type of unity, the expression would have been ‘Eloah’, not the plural ‘Elohim’.

It does not say: ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah, our Elohim, one Eloah.’

The use of Elohim (a uniplural noun) means: ‘there is a real plurality, yet Jehovah is one.’

Ask: Who is Jehovah? Is it the Father alone? Is Jesus Jehovah? Is the Holy Spirit Jehovah?

If we can find verses teaching that Jesus is Jehovah (or God) and the Holy Spirit is Jehovah,
then we have proved the Trinity.

i) The Holy Spirit is called Jehovah:‘Now Jehovah is the Spirit’.(II Corinthians 3:17 NWT)
ii) Jesus Christ is called God, as follows:
(1) ‘Our Lord Jesus Christ who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto’(I Tim 6:14-16)
(2) ‘The Word was God.’ (John 1:1)
(3) ‘of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ’ (Titus 2:13)
(4) ‘the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ’. (II Peter 1:1)
(5) ‘if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.’ (John 8:24)
(6) ‘Before Abraham was, I am.’ (John 8:58)
(7) ‘God was manifest in the flesh’. (I Timothy 3:16)
(8) ‘Thomas said unto him, My Lord and My God’. (John 20:28)
(9) ‘in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.’ (Colossians 2:9)
(10) ‘unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God is forever.’ (Hebrews 1:8)
(11) ‘If you publicly declare . . . that Jesus is Lord.’ (KIT: ‘ha Adon’ in Hebrew footnote of Romans 10:9. In the 1961 edition of NWT, p.1453, ‘ha Adon’ = Jehovah).
(12) ‘that he (Christ) might be Lord both of the dead and the living’. (Romans 14:9).
In verses 6-11 of NWT ‘􀁒􀂋􀂈􀁐􀂆􀀽’(Lord) is translated 7 times as Jehovah, except in v.9. Why?
(13) ‘in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.’ (I John 5:20)
(14) ‘feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.’ (Acts 20:28)

6. Notice how God reveals Himself in stages to man:

(1) God revealed His Unity as the one and only true God, to refute the nations’ many gods.
(2) God revealed the Trinity (Jehovah=Father+Son+HS) in the Old Testament in:

‘Jehovah your God is God of gods (the Father), and Lord of lords (the Son)’. (Deut.10:17).

‘Thus saith Jehovah the King of Israel (the Father),and his redeemer Jehovah of hosts (the Son).Is44:6

‘God said “let us make man in our image . . .”.’ Genesis 1:26

‘Jehovah God said, “Behold the man is become as one of us . . .’ Genesis 3:22

‘Jehovah came down . . . the Lord said, let us go down . . .’ Genesis 11:5,7

‘the Lord saying . . . who will go for us?’ Isaiah 6:8

‘What is his name....and what is his Son’s name.’ Proverbs 30:4

‘the Lord God (the Father), and his Spirit (HS), hath sent me (Jehovah the Son).’ Isaiah 48:16.

(3) God revealed the fullness of the Trinity doctrine in the New Testament:

Matthew 28:19 ‘baptizing them in the name (singular name, not plural) of the Father, and of
the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.’

I John 5:7 ‘There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.’

Revelation 22:1,3,4 ‘the throne (of God and of the Lamb) shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him; they shall see his face, and his name shall be in their foreheads.’

Key:God and the Lamb have one throne, one name, one face and one ownership of servants.

II Corinthians 13:14 ‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost’. There is one God, but three persons within the Godhead.

(4) Early Christians with a strong Jewish background, who knew Deuteronomy 6:4, continually refer to Jesus as ‘Lord’ and ‘God’ (Romans 10:13, I Thess 5:2, I Peter 2:3, 3:15.) They often apply to Jesus many Old Testament texts which refer to Jehovah, such as:

a) Jesus Christ in Matthew 3:1-3 fulfils Isaiah 40:3 to‘Prepare the way of Jehovah’ and Elohim.
b) Jesus Christ’s glory in John 12:41 is Jehovah’s glory in Isaiah 6:1-5.
c) Jesus Christ’s voice as the sound of many waters in Revelation 1:15 is identical to Jehovah’s voice as the sound of many waters in Ezekiel 43:2.
d) Jesus Christ being pierced in Rev 1:7 is the same one as Jehovah being pierced in Zech
12:10.
e) Jesus Christ being called on for salvation in Romans 10:13, is the same as Jehovah being called on for salvation in Joel 2:32
f) Jesus Christ, the Lamb, is the everlasting light in Revelation 21:23, just as Jehovah ‘shall be . . . an everlasting light’ in Isaiah 60:19,20.

Ask:Do you agree that Trinitarians believe Deuteronomy 6:4 that there is only one true God?

Ask: Do you understand that Trinitarians don’t teach that there are three gods in the Trinity, but that there is only one God with three persons within the one Godhead?

Ask: How do you explain that the early Jewish Christians who believed Deuteronomy 6:4, applied to Jesus many Old Testament texts that were originally written of Jehovah?
 

[John Houston]

You did some research. I ask a very simple question using John 1:1. In that verse John writes that The Word is WITH God, how is that possible, that is not a straw man argument. Not above mankind's intelligence. How can the Word be WITH God then BE God. That is the question that has never been answered by ones who believe this false claim not taught fully in scripture. Remember ALL Scripture are inspired, so we cannot have one out of line, correct? I knew this before becoming a JW.

[John Houston]

Any many early Christians misapplied to Jesus what he would not gain until he returned to heaven and John saw in vision. All the glory and power bestowed on him, John saw in vision, not what Jesus taught about himself while here on earth. Here everything went to his third self? The part of him that was still in heaven talking to him from heaven the three times recorded in scripture, right? Really? No godhead, that is what nations around Israel believed. But now they have such a God, the very same as the nations, no different; when Jehovah is telling them he is different, much different. And proved it over and over to them. Only one true God came to them not a 'godhead'. Again your argument holds no 💦!

[Matthew9969]

The watchtower has again redefined the word trinity to mean Jehovah, Jesus, and the governing body.

[Space Merchant]

@John Houston The deserter tends to repeat himself, with the same nonsense as last time. Easily refutable.

@Matthew9969 Restorationist are not Trinitarians and that setup is rather stale compared to what Atheists already call us because of the silliness of Trinitarianism. Christians regardless of how they view even JWs, always and will ever defend actual truth about God and his Son, and as seen here, we know whose side someone is representing, which adds more fuel to what is already brought up at Hyde.

 

@Jesus.defender  You posted this stuff last time - everything you mentioned had been refuted. But this is understanable, Trinitarian has been at it's deathbed at the beginning of 2015, and absurdities such as yours shows how much of the Trinity doctrine is dying, as is with it being surpassed by Christian minorities and the likes of Islam, that is, more evident in the EU.

That being said, Trinitarian scholars admit that they've been lying a lie due to using Bible errors as proof of Jesus being God until some of the most prominent among you admitted, as is with others to such. It is over.

 

Real Christians will and always will defend the truth about God and his Son, as with what has been dealt with in regards to you already.

[Jesus.defender]

6 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

The watchtower has again redefined the word trinity to mean Jehovah, Jesus, and the governing body.

Good point. I haven't thought of it that way.

 

[Jesus.defender]

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

@John Houston The deserter tends to repeat himself, with the same nonsense as last time. Easily refutable.

@Matthew9969 Restorationist are not Trinitarians and that setup is rather stale compared to what Atheists already call us because of the silliness of Trinitarianism. Christians regardless of how they view even JWs, always and will ever defend actual truth about God and his Son, and as seen here, we know whose side someone is representing, which adds more fuel to what is already brought up at Hyde.

 

@Jesus.defender  You posted this stuff last time - everything you mentioned had been refuted. But this is understanable, Trinitarian has been at it's deathbed at the beginning of 2015, and absurdities such as yours shows how much of the Trinity doctrine is dying, as is with it being surpassed by Christian minorities and the likes of Islam, that is, more evident in the EU.

That being said, Trinitarian scholars admit that they've been lying a lie due to using Bible errors as proof of Jesus being God until some of the most prominent among you admitted, as is with others to such. It is over.

  

As usual, more LIES from you with ZERO proof.

the watchtower has LIED to you

[Jesus.defender]

On 6/25/2019 at 3:26 AM, John Houston said:

You did some research. I ask a very simple question using John 1:1. In that verse John writes that The Word is WITH God, how is that possible, that is not a straw man argument. Not above mankind's intelligence. How can the Word be WITH God then BE God. That is the question that has never been answered by ones who believe this false claim not taught fully in scripture. Remember ALL Scripture are inspired, so we cannot have one out of line, correct? I knew this before becoming a JW.

Yes, it is difficult to comprehend, isn't it?

You need to study Biblical Greek and Hebrew. I know the watchtower does NOT endorse this and does NOT allow independent thinking.

 

also check out this verse that appears in the original language:  "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.". "En arkhêi ên ho lógos, kaì ho lógos ên pròs tòn theón, kaì theòs ên ho lógos."

 

Check out also the word "ὑπόστασις " 

[Jesus.defender]

7 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

The watchtower has again redefined the word trinity to mean Jehovah, Jesus, and the governing body.

 

[Jesus.defender]

@Space Merchant 

[Space Merchant]

@Jesus.defender And it proves nothing..... The world knows now that the Trinity is nothing more than a doctrine coined and termed by a man whom you deem an Arian. And it has been revealed that even your own admits that some of the verse that you use were slanders.

Hypocrisy has no place in the Kingdom of God.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

On 6/28/2019 at 1:54 AM, Space Merchant said:

Restorationist

You mentioned many times in many various topics that JW are Restorationist.

Is this religion? Or some sort of conglomeration of few religions? Do they all teaching "The Truth"? Do they have same or similar "truths"? Are they in some sort of competition among themselves? Do they existing in some sort of mutual understanding and respect? Do they have some "interfaith" dialog?   

i am curious :))