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THE TRINITY

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THE TRINITY

Watchtower Teaching: JW arguments against the Trinity are:

i) If Jesus is God, who ran the universe during the three days that Jesus was dead in the grave? Satan had a great chance to take control.

Answer: Jesus’ body died, not His soul or spirit. He along with the Father and the Holy Spirit still ran the universe.

ii) If Jesus is the immortal God, He could not have died.

Answer: The immortal God, by taking on a mortal body, had His mortal body die.

iii) Since God is not a God of confusion (I Corinthians 14:33), it is impossible that the Bible would talk of a God who could not be understood by human reason. JWs claim that the Trinity is incomprehensible and unreasonable. ‘We worship what we know’ (John 4:22).

Answer: Man’s lack of understanding has never stopped new discoveries. What percent of the total knowledge of the universe do you possess? (about zero percent).

Ask: Could there be something about God that you don’t comprehend?(eg: His Trinity?).

iv) The word ‘Trinity’ is not in the Bible.

Answer: Neither is ‘Bible’, ‘organisation’, Kingdom Hall’, chocolate, motor car, etc.

Say to the JW: ‘By this logic you would agree that Kingdom Halls don’t exist either?’

This is shallow reasoning designed to throw the Christian off guard. If it can be proved that the Bible teaches a certain truth, then naming that truth does not make it unbiblical. We should ask: ‘Is the particular teaching in the Bible?’

v) The Watchtower has misrepresented the Trinity doctrine in order to make its denial more plausible. 

They erect a straw man that is easily knocked down.

They call the Trinity a ‘freakish looking, three headed God’ (Let God be True, p 102)
‘This doctrine of three Gods in one God . . .’ (Studies in Scripture, 1899, Vol 5, p 60,61)

Note: Trinitarians do not believe in ‘three Gods in one God’.

They believe in one God, with three co-equal persons in the one Godhead.


1. Refuting the Watchtower’s FALSE Quotes of Early Church Writers

The Watchtower is quite happy to tell lies by inventing statements allegedly made by six Ante-Nicene Church writers who lived before 325 AD. Page 7 of their publication ‘Should you believe in the Trinity?’ Shows the Watchtower’s claims that these ancient writers taught that Jesus Christ was not God. These quotes are FALSE and INVENTED by the Watchtower. They are easily refuted by the photocopied excerpts of the 10 volume set of genuine Ante-Nicene church fathers quotes that prove these early writers strong belief in and defence of the Trinity.

In the Watchtower’s false quotes we notice that:

1) None of these references are given a source, making them nearly impossible to check. It is almost certain that the Watchtower has invented these quotes.
2) Notice the lie of the central bold quote on page 7: ‘There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead’.

We refute this Watchtower lie, and prove beyond doubt that both the Trinity and the full deity of Christ were well known and firmly believed as early as 110 AD as seen from the quotes by the Ante-Nicene (before 325 AD) church fathers which follow the Watchtower quote.

The following quotes are from the 10 Volume set of The Ante-Nicene Fathers, translations of The Writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325, by editors Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, American Reprint of the Edinburgh edition, revised and arranged by A C Coxe, published by W.B.Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, Michigan, reprinted in May 1987.

The Watchtower’s claim that Constantine and the Council of Nicea introduced the deity of Christ and Trinity doctrines in 325 AD is proven false by these pre-325 AD quotes to the contrary:

i) Justin Martyr (110-165 AD),Volume I, page 263: ‘His Son, being God’ Volume I, page 219 Justin Martyr says:: ‘Christ existed as God before the ages’ Volume I, page 264). Justin Martyr says that ‘Christ is Lord and God’.
ii) Irenaeus (120-202 AD) Volume I, page 328 not only shows the NWT to be wrong on John 1:1
but also calls Christ ‘God’
iii) Clement of Alexandria (153-217 AD) In Volume 2, p 468, written in 193 AD, Clement clearly quotes the Holy Trinity as Father, Son & Holy Spirit. page 173
iv) Tertullian (200-250 AD) Volume 3, page 598 page 598 Tertullian against Praxeas, Volume 3, p.606 Tertullian correctly quotes John 1:1, saying that Christ is God. (Volume 3, p. 607) Tertullian again quotes the
Trinity on a fourth occasion. (Vol 4, page 99)
v) Hippolytus (170-236 AD) Volume 5, page 228 mentions the Trinity and quotes John 1:1 correctly.
vi) Origen (185-254 AD) Volume 4, page 255. Twice he quotes the word ‘Trinity’, as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Also on page 258 he quotes the Trinity in ‘Origen de Principiis’, written in 230 AD.
vii) Thaumaturgus (205-265 AD) Volume 6, pages 42, 45

2. Is the Trinity a Pagan Concept? No! Because:

i) The Babylonians and Assyrians believed in triads of gods, which were three separate gods (polytheism) governing other gods. This is totally different from the Trinity of only one God (monotheism) with three persons within the one Godhead.

ii) Triads of gods pre-date Christianity by about 700 years and were far removed from Israel..

iii) Some pagan ideas have some truth in them, such as the pagan Flood legends. Just because pagans spoke of a concept that remotely resembles a biblical concept, does not mean that Christians stole it from the pagans.

iv) JWs quote Hislop’s The Two Babylons to support their case, yet they don’t tell us that Hislop believes in the Trinity, as seen from Hislop’s quote:
‘They all admitted a Trinity, but did they worship the Triune Jehovah?’ (p. 90)

- About 80% of the sources that the WT quotes are from Trinitarians. This begs the question: ‘How can the WT disprove the Trinity by quoting sources who believe the Trinity?

- 15% of their sources are secular works like Encyclopaedia Britannica.

- 5% of WT sources are invalid sources of Biblical truth, eg: sceptics, spiritists, Unitarians.

- The WT always finds some unknown, obscure person to agree with them. They do not examine the credibility of such sources. Most WT sources have no credibility & no authority.

- The WT rarely gives page numbers of its quotes to allow check the source and context.

v) JWs claim they represent the ‘faith once delivered to the saints’. They claim that the Trinity idea was introduced in 325 AD. What they don’t say is that current WT teachings have no precedent in history. They do not say who were the JWs of the first three centuries or later. No early church ‘father’ represented their beliefs. The WT is historically bankrupt.

vi) The WT, by showing a three-headed god, use the ‘straw-man effect’, where they misrepresent what Christians believe, and then proceed to ‘shoot down’ this ‘straw man’.

This is seen in five pictures of three-headed gods which are supposed to represent the God of Christendom. (‘Should you believe in the Trinity’ p 10).

vii) The WT is happy to misquote sources to prove their point.

Consider page 6 ‘Should you believe in the Trinity’, where they misquote the New Encyclopaedia Brittanica by failing to give the full relevant quote. They stop the quote at the asterisk *
‘The Encyclopaedia Britannica (1976 Edition) correctly states:
“Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament”,’
[*They stop the quote here, ignoring the rest of the article which endorses the Trinity:]
‘nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deuteronomy 6:4). The earliest Christians, however, had to cope with the implications of the coming of Jesus Christ and of the presence and power of God among them - ie, the Holy Spirit, whose coming we connected with the celebration of Pentecost.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were associated in such New Testament passages as the Great Commission: ‘Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit’ (Matthew 28:19); and in the apostolic benediction:
‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all’ (2 Cor. 13:14). Thus, the New Testament established the basis for the doctrine of the Trinity.The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.

Any early church council disputes were over fine points of Trinity clarification, such as the substance, nature and omnipotence of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, never over whether the Trinity was right or wrong. The truth of the Trinity was always accepted.

3. Refuting Watchtowers’ wrong application of I Corinthians 14:33

‘for God is not the author of confusion, but of peace . . .’

Watchtower Teaching: JWs say that because God is not the author of confusion, the Trinity doctrine cannot be true because it is so unreasonable. How can the Father, Son and Holy Spirit each be God, and yet there be only one God? It doesn’t make sense to them.

Bible Teaching: Just because one is unable to fully understand something, doesn’t mean that it is false.

i) Finite humans cannot possibly understand everything about the infinite God.

‘How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out.’ (Romans 11:33)

‘For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts’. (Isaiah 55:8,9)

ii) Can you fully understand how light can be both a particle of matter and a wave form?

iii) Can you fully understand how God did not have a beginning? (No) Do you reject the idea?

Ask: Should we reject the Trinity doctrine because we don’t fully understand it, when we accept other things about God and the universe which we don’t fully understand.

I Corinthians 14:33 means that a church should avoid disharmony in its services by only
having two or three prophets speak in a service, and only one at a time.
‘Confusion’ means ‘parts of a whole which are at strife with one another’.
‘Peace’ means ‘parts of a whole acting in harmony’.

5. Refuting WT’s misunderstanding of Deuteronomy 6:4 and Mark 12:29

‘Hear,O Israel, the Lord (YHWH) our God (Elohim) is one Lord (YHWH).’ (Deut 6:4)

Watchtower teaching: JWs say that, since God is one, He cannot be Triune at the same time. Why would God speak as one person if He were composed of three persons?

Bible teaching: The ordinary name of God (Elohim) is in the plural form ‘Hear, O, Israel, Jehovah our Elohim, one Jehovah.’ Deut.6:4

If God had intended to assert a solitary, exclusive type of unity, the expression would have been ‘Eloah’, not the plural ‘Elohim’.

It does not say: ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah, our Elohim, one Eloah.’

The use of Elohim (a uniplural noun) means: ‘there is a real plurality, yet Jehovah is one.’

Ask: Who is Jehovah? Is it the Father alone? Is Jesus Jehovah? Is the Holy Spirit Jehovah?

If we can find verses teaching that Jesus is Jehovah (or God) and the Holy Spirit is Jehovah,
then we have proved the Trinity.

i) The Holy Spirit is called Jehovah:‘Now Jehovah is the Spirit’.(II Corinthians 3:17 NWT)
ii) Jesus Christ is called God, as follows:
(1) ‘Our Lord Jesus Christ who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto’(I Tim 6:14-16)
(2) ‘The Word was God.’ (John 1:1)
(3) ‘of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ’ (Titus 2:13)
(4) ‘the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ’. (II Peter 1:1)
(5) ‘if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.’ (John 8:24)
(6) ‘Before Abraham was, I am.’ (John 8:58)
(7) ‘God was manifest in the flesh’. (I Timothy 3:16)
(8) ‘Thomas said unto him, My Lord and My God’. (John 20:28)
(9) ‘in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.’ (Colossians 2:9)
(10) ‘unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God is forever.’ (Hebrews 1:8)
(11) ‘If you publicly declare . . . that Jesus is Lord.’ (KIT: ‘ha Adon’ in Hebrew footnote of Romans 10:9. In the 1961 edition of NWT, p.1453, ‘ha Adon’ = Jehovah).
(12) ‘that he (Christ) might be Lord both of the dead and the living’. (Romans 14:9).
In verses 6-11 of NWT ‘􀁒􀂋􀂈􀁐􀂆􀀽’(Lord) is translated 7 times as Jehovah, except in v.9. Why?
(13) ‘in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.’ (I John 5:20)
(14) ‘feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.’ (Acts 20:28)

6. Notice how God reveals Himself in stages to man:

(1) God revealed His Unity as the one and only true God, to refute the nations’ many gods.
(2) God revealed the Trinity (Jehovah=Father+Son+HS) in the Old Testament in:

‘Jehovah your God is God of gods (the Father), and Lord of lords (the Son)’. (Deut.10:17).

‘Thus saith Jehovah the King of Israel (the Father),and his redeemer Jehovah of hosts (the Son).Is44:6

‘God said “let us make man in our image . . .”.’ Genesis 1:26

‘Jehovah God said, “Behold the man is become as one of us . . .’ Genesis 3:22

‘Jehovah came down . . . the Lord said, let us go down . . .’ Genesis 11:5,7

‘the Lord saying . . . who will go for us?’ Isaiah 6:8

‘What is his name....and what is his Son’s name.’ Proverbs 30:4

‘the Lord God (the Father), and his Spirit (HS), hath sent me (Jehovah the Son).’ Isaiah 48:16.

(3) God revealed the fullness of the Trinity doctrine in the New Testament:

Matthew 28:19 ‘baptizing them in the name (singular name, not plural) of the Father, and of
the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.’

I John 5:7 ‘There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.’

Revelation 22:1,3,4 ‘the throne (of God and of the Lamb) shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him; they shall see his face, and his name shall be in their foreheads.’

Key:God and the Lamb have one throne, one name, one face and one ownership of servants.

II Corinthians 13:14 ‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost’. There is one God, but three persons within the Godhead.

(4) Early Christians with a strong Jewish background, who knew Deuteronomy 6:4, continually refer to Jesus as ‘Lord’ and ‘God’ (Romans 10:13, I Thess 5:2, I Peter 2:3, 3:15.) They often apply to Jesus many Old Testament texts which refer to Jehovah, such as:

a) Jesus Christ in Matthew 3:1-3 fulfils Isaiah 40:3 to‘Prepare the way of Jehovah’ and Elohim.
b) Jesus Christ’s glory in John 12:41 is Jehovah’s glory in Isaiah 6:1-5.
c) Jesus Christ’s voice as the sound of many waters in Revelation 1:15 is identical to Jehovah’s voice as the sound of many waters in Ezekiel 43:2.
d) Jesus Christ being pierced in Rev 1:7 is the same one as Jehovah being pierced in Zech
12:10.
e) Jesus Christ being called on for salvation in Romans 10:13, is the same as Jehovah being called on for salvation in Joel 2:32
f) Jesus Christ, the Lamb, is the everlasting light in Revelation 21:23, just as Jehovah ‘shall be . . . an everlasting light’ in Isaiah 60:19,20.

Ask:Do you agree that Trinitarians believe Deuteronomy 6:4 that there is only one true God?

Ask: Do you understand that Trinitarians don’t teach that there are three gods in the Trinity, but that there is only one God with three persons within the one Godhead?

Ask: How do you explain that the early Jewish Christians who believed Deuteronomy 6:4, applied to Jesus many Old Testament texts that were originally written of Jehovah?
 

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You did some research. I ask a very simple question using John 1:1. In that verse John writes that The Word is WITH God, how is that possible, that is not a straw man argument. Not above mankind's intelligence. How can the Word be WITH God then BE God. That is the question that has never been answered by ones who believe this false claim not taught fully in scripture. Remember ALL Scripture are inspired, so we cannot have one out of line, correct? I knew this before becoming a JW.

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Any many early Christians misapplied to Jesus what he would not gain until he returned to heaven and John saw in vision. All the glory and power bestowed on him, John saw in vision, not what Jesus taught about himself while here on earth. Here everything went to his third self? The part of him that was still in heaven talking to him from heaven the three times recorded in scripture, right? Really? No godhead, that is what nations around Israel believed. But now they have such a God, the very same as the nations, no different; when Jehovah is telling them he is different, much different. And proved it over and over to them. Only one true God came to them not a 'godhead'. Again your argument holds no 💦!

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@John Houston The deserter tends to repeat himself, with the same nonsense as last time. Easily refutable.

@Matthew9969 Restorationist are not Trinitarians and that setup is rather stale compared to what Atheists already call us because of the silliness of Trinitarianism. Christians regardless of how they view even JWs, always and will ever defend actual truth about God and his Son, and as seen here, we know whose side someone is representing, which adds more fuel to what is already brought up at Hyde.

 

@Jesus.defender  You posted this stuff last time - everything you mentioned had been refuted. But this is understanable, Trinitarian has been at it's deathbed at the beginning of 2015, and absurdities such as yours shows how much of the Trinity doctrine is dying, as is with it being surpassed by Christian minorities and the likes of Islam, that is, more evident in the EU.

That being said, Trinitarian scholars admit that they've been lying a lie due to using Bible errors as proof of Jesus being God until some of the most prominent among you admitted, as is with others to such. It is over.

 

Real Christians will and always will defend the truth about God and his Son, as with what has been dealt with in regards to you already.

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2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

@John Houston The deserter tends to repeat himself, with the same nonsense as last time. Easily refutable.

@Matthew9969 Restorationist are not Trinitarians and that setup is rather stale compared to what Atheists already call us because of the silliness of Trinitarianism. Christians regardless of how they view even JWs, always and will ever defend actual truth about God and his Son, and as seen here, we know whose side someone is representing, which adds more fuel to what is already brought up at Hyde.

 

@Jesus.defender  You posted this stuff last time - everything you mentioned had been refuted. But this is understanable, Trinitarian has been at it's deathbed at the beginning of 2015, and absurdities such as yours shows how much of the Trinity doctrine is dying, as is with it being surpassed by Christian minorities and the likes of Islam, that is, more evident in the EU.

That being said, Trinitarian scholars admit that they've been lying a lie due to using Bible errors as proof of Jesus being God until some of the most prominent among you admitted, as is with others to such. It is over.

  

As usual, more LIES from you with ZERO proof.

the watchtower has LIED to you

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On 6/25/2019 at 3:26 AM, John Houston said:

You did some research. I ask a very simple question using John 1:1. In that verse John writes that The Word is WITH God, how is that possible, that is not a straw man argument. Not above mankind's intelligence. How can the Word be WITH God then BE God. That is the question that has never been answered by ones who believe this false claim not taught fully in scripture. Remember ALL Scripture are inspired, so we cannot have one out of line, correct? I knew this before becoming a JW.

Yes, it is difficult to comprehend, isn't it?

You need to study Biblical Greek and Hebrew. I know the watchtower does NOT endorse this and does NOT allow independent thinking.

 

also check out this verse that appears in the original language:  "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.". "En arkhêi ên ho lógos, kaì ho lógos ên pròs tòn theón, kaì theòs ên ho lógos."

 

Check out also the word "ὑπόστασις " 

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    • From '66 WT: (Just to throw something else into the mix as to the original post) "Questions From Readers ● At times there are changes in viewpoint on Biblical subjects discussed in the Watch Tower Society’s publications. We speak of what we believe as “the truth.” But does “truth” change?—W. P., U.S.A. Really it is the Bible that speaks of beliefs that are in harmony with the Scriptures as “the truth.” At 2 Peter 2:2 the worship based on such beliefs is termed “the way of the truth.” Yet concerning that “way of the truth” we read at Proverbs 4:18: “The path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.” So we do not know all there is to know. In fact, even when the post-Armageddon system of things is ushered in we will not know everything. Throughout all eternity there will always be more to learn. This is indicated by what the apostle Paul wrote in Romans 11:33: “O the depth of God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How unsearchable his judgments are and past tracing out his ways are!” It is to be expected, then, that at times there may be changes in viewpoint. Our basic belief may be sound Scriptural truth, but there may be some details that we did not fully understand in the past. In time, with the aid of Jehovah’s spirit, we get those matters cleared up. For example, a few years ago we had a fine series of articles in The Watchtower on the “superior authorities.” (Issues of November 1–December 1, 1962) Before those articles were published, we knew and taught that Jehovah is the Most High, and that Jesus Christ is the second to Him in power and authority. We knew that we should be law-abiding persons, but that, when there was a conflict between man’s law and that of God, we would obey God as ruler rather than men. Those basic truths are the same today as they were before; they have not changed. However, by careful scrutiny of the Scriptures we have come to appreciate that certain Bible texts ought to be applied in a different way. For example, we realized that the “superior authorities” mentioned in Romans 13:1 are, not Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, but the political rulers. That is also true of Titus 3:1 and; 1 Peter 2:13, 14. Yet the basic truth is unchanged. Our viewpoint toward God and toward the State is the same as before. Similarly with our study of the resurrection. We believed in the resurrection of the dead before our recent series of Watchtower articles (issues of January 15–March 15, 1965) on the subject and we believe in it now. We also believed that 144,000 would be raised to heavenly life with Christ. 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    • Individuality and unity is what should be expected, and not clones as you said well. According to vision and description with word "bride" in the Bible, it would be more accurate to see artistic pictures of female persons (in heaven or earth) as 144000. I can say how don't see any special need for 144000 to be in Heaven for purpose to reign. That can be done also very good from Earth too. But maybe we can say, for fun, that problem is hidden in transferring power of spirit from Heaven to Earth. We been explained by WT Society how "miracles" stopped. In that context it seems how one of "miracle" is to be inspired by God also finished in 1 century. :))) Perhaps that could be reason why is important for 14400 to be lifted in Heaven. Because distance must be too far, too long to be handled by spirit. :))))    This too verses show how distance is not obstacle for spirit's activity in 1 century. I really don't see why GB and Helpers making issue and such problem about "inspiration" and "be inspired" ?!! :)) 
    • This has been discussed a few times before on this forum. I typically just rewrite new comments every time a subject comes up, but this time I'll be anti-typical and just re-quote myself from one of those earlier posts. Comments went on for 9 pages on that topic, too. For context, Israeli Bar Avaddhon wanted to make another modern day application of these periods and said: By the way, to match these dates day were "greatly rounded" (Rutherford and his associates were released March 26, 1919, not January 1919; see Watchtower, 5/16/2016 all ' article entitled "to whom was entrusted the work"), but even more importantly the writing of Daniel, after mentioning the 1290 days, he says, "Happy is he who waits and who gets to 1335 days!" - Daniel 12: 12 "Getting to ..." means to add to what was there before. The rest of this post is a copy of my brief response to that: I think you are right that the basic idea here is more likely a set of time periods from the same starting point. If I were to tell someone that they are going to have to wait 1260 days for something, but that they might really have to get to 1290 before seeing it, and that they will be truly happy if they wait for 1,335 days, then I don't think it's likely that anyone would guess that I meant 3,885 days in total. And yet this is something like the Watchtower's view. I also think that if such a specific number of days were intended for us today that they would match to a specific number of days in a calendar. I agree, too, that the 1,260 of Revelation 11 & 12 is key. (And of Daniel 7:25; 12:7) The Watchtower also generally agrees on this point, even though they move the 1,290 as a completely new time period away from the 1,260. The explanation given in the Watch Tower publications, as you say, are "greatly rounded." None of them can even reach back as far as October 1914, the most important date/event in modern history according to the new "God's Kingdom Rules" book. The best they can do is start it near the end of December 1914, just a few days from January 1915. In fact, since they end it around June 21, 1918 it must start around December 21, 1914. To even catch this little piece of the tail-end of the all-important year 1914, they must end this period with the sentencing, rather than the actual imprisonment. In the scheme of things, the sentencing was just another part of a process that had begun in the "scheming" that began back in March 1918 when the FBI was building a case based on the Finished Mystery book. *** dp chap. 9 p. 142 par. 28 Who Will Rule the World? *** God’s witnesses would preach dressed in sackcloth for 42 months, or 1,260 days, and then be killed. When did this time period begin and end? . . . Hence, beginning in December 1914, that small band of witnesses preached “in sackcloth.” . . . Harassment of God’s anointed ones climaxed on June 21, 1918, when the president, J. F. Rutherford, and prominent members of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society were sentenced on false charges to long prison terms. Intending “to change times and law,” the “small” horn had effectively killed the organized preaching work. (Revelation 11:7) So the foretold period of “a time, and times and half a time” ended in June 1918. The start of the next period 1,290 days does not even attach to the first period without a several month gap. And again, even to get it as close as possible they used the "proposal" of the League of Nations rather than the actual start of the League of the Nations: *** dp chap. 17 p. 300 pars. 22-23 Identifying True Worshipers in the Time of the End *** The League was officially proposed in January 1919. At that time, then, both conditions of Daniel 12:11 were met. So the 1,290 days began in early 1919 and ran until the autumn (Northern Hemisphere) of 1922. During that time, did the holy ones make progress toward becoming whitened and cleansed in God’s eyes? They certainly did! In March 1919 the president of the Watch Tower Society and his close associates were released from prison. They were later exonerated of the false charges against them. Aware that their work was far from over, they got busy immediately, organizing a convention for September 1919. In the same year, a companion magazine to The Watch Tower was first published. Originally called The Golden Age (now Awake!), it has always supported The Watchtower in fearlessly exposing the corruption of this world and in helping God’s people to remain clean. By the end of the foretold 1,290 days, the holy ones were well on the way to a cleansed and restored standing. In September 1922, right about the time when this period ended, they held a landmark convention at Cedar Point, Ohio, U.S.A. Notice again that the periods do not work out. 1290 days is about 17 months, so that a starting date in January would have to end in August, and the convention wasn't until September 1919, which is why it ends at a time when they were only "preparing" for this assembly. And the next period of 1,335 days is even looser in terms of anchoring to any specific occasions. Note: *** dp chap. 17 pp. 303-304 pars. 24-26 Identifying True Worshipers in the Time of the End *** “Happy is the one who is keeping in expectation and who arrives at the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days!” (Daniel 12:12) The angel gives no clues as to when this period begins or ends. History suggests that it simply follows on the heels of the preceding period. In that case it would run from the autumn of 1922 to the late spring of 1926 (Northern Hemisphere). Did the holy ones come to a state of happiness by the end of that period? Yes, in important spiritual ways. 25 Even after the convention in 1922 (shown on page 302), some of God’s holy ones were still looking longingly to the past. The basic study material for their meetings was still the Bible and the volumes of Studies in the Scriptures, by C. T. Russell. At that time, there was a widely held view that pointed to 1925 as the year for the resurrection to begin and for Paradise to be restored to the earth. Thus, many were serving with a fixed date in mind. Some proudly refused to share in the work of preaching to the public. This was not a happy state of affairs. . . . The issue of March 1, 1925, carried the historic article “Birth of the Nation,” giving God’s people a full understanding of what had happened in the 1914-19 period. After 1925 passed, the holy ones no longer served God with an immediate, explicit deadline in view. . . .  At the convention in May 1926, the book Deliverance was released. (See page 302.) This was one of a series of new books designed to replace Studies in the Scriptures. No longer were the holy ones looking to the past. They were looking confidently to the future and the work ahead. As prophesied, the 1,335 days therefore ended with the holy ones in a happy state. If Daniel had spoken of the 1,335 days as culimating in the most unhappy time period ever for God's people, then this could have made more sense. It would have been very easy to show why this was the most UNHAPPY time period in our organization's history. 1925 had been hyped since 1918 as one of the most important prophecies that the "prophet" -- the Watchtower -- had ever proclaimed, and it turned out to be a miserable failure: a false prophecy. People were now leaving in larger numbers, even those who had hung on past the 1917 organizational debacle. In 1926 Rutherford began to systematically throw away all the old foundations for the time prophecies of Russell. More people were upset. Although Rutherford claims that he had been fighting against Russellite creature worship all along, this was actually the time when Rutherford himself stopped making great claims for Russell and began pushing against Russell's teachings almost "en masse."   Rutherford was beginning to fight with colporteurs and pioneers because they no longer wanted to sell Russell's books if they were pushing doctrines that were now considered "from Satan" (pyramids, etc). But Rutherford still had large stockpiles of these books and insisted that the Lord wanted them sold to the public. The "Bulletin" (Later Informant, later Our Kingdom Ministry) claimed that anyone who balked at this particular edict by Rutherford was going against the Lord himself. More people left the organization over this, and from 1926 to 1932 the campaigns to sell Russell's books continued. We could go on and on comparing this particular period of sadness and gloom with the periods before and since, but there is definitely enough to make us wonder why these particular time periods were chosen for the 1260, 1290, and 1,335 days. I think there are enough weaknesses in it, that the Society will revisit it -- especially if they realize that more and more Witnesses are looking at the prophecy more closely. If I get a chance, I'll explain more of the problems I have with the primary solution that is being promoted from the original post in this topic. I think there is a much simpler solution -- it's one we already have used in the publications on a closely related set of time periods related to the half-week (3.5-year period) in the final 70th week in the week-of-years prophecy. I don't doubt there are other possibilities that might seem more exciting, but some of those ones here imply that we can currently predict the times and seasons, and this particular period is one in which Jesus said the end events would come like a thief in the night. I admit that this is more boring than tying current events to Daniel and Revelation, but there are some excellent reasons to look at it this way (I think) starting with the "two witnesses" and the "olive trees" in Revelation 11. Paul explains the two olive trees very well in Romans 11, and we had already used this tie-in to a 3.5 year period in the discussion of the "keys of the kingdom." Note: *** w79 10/1 p. 23 pars. 1-2 “The Keys of the Kingdom” and the “Great Crowd” *** IN THE year 36 C.E. a marked event in Christian history took place in Caesarea on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea. Whether Philip the evangelizer had settled there by that year we do not know for certain. If he had done so, then why was he not used in connection with a certain army officer of the Italian band of soldiers then stationed there? Philip had preceded the apostle Peter in Christian activity in Samaria, so why not now in Caesarea in 36 C.E.? The inspired Scriptures give us the answer. The Law covenant that Moses had mediated between Jehovah God and Israel at Mount Sinai in Arabia was abolished on the basis of the impalement of Jesus Christ, the descendant of Abraham and King David. That was three years and a half from the water baptism and spirit-anointing of Jesus back in 29 C.E. Nevertheless, Jehovah continued to give preferential treatment to the natural Jews and Samaritans also during this period for three years and a half more, to fulfill the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27a. This “week” or period of seven years terminated in the seventh lunar month (Tishri) of 36 C.E. From then on the Israelite descendants of Abraham would be put on the same spiritual level as the people of the non-Jewish nations, the uncircumcised Gentiles. After that no more preferential treatment to the Jews by the God of Abraham! How was this demonstrated in 36 C.E.? From here, we already have a Biblically consistent tie-in between the two witnesses (the witness to the Jews, and the witness to the Gentiles) and the two olive trees (natural Jewish olive tree and the grafted Gentile olive tree) the 42 months or 1260 days. If we look at a few other events with respect to the week of Pentecost of 33, Christ's ascension, etc., we can attempt to work out the differences between a simple 1260 and 1290 and 1335, but I don't even think this is necessarily the answer here.
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