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"This Generation" - What's wrong with this picture?

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(Matthew 24:34) . . .Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen.

(Matthew 24:1-3) . . .Now as Jesus was departing from the temple, his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 In response he said to them: “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, by no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.” 3 While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, when will these things be. . .

(Mark 13:1-4) . . .As he was going out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him: “Teacher, see! what wonderful stones and buildings!” 2 However, Jesus said to him: “Do you see these great buildings? By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.” 3 As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives with the temple in view, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately: 4 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are to come to a conclusion?

(Luke 21:5-7) 5 Later, when some were speaking about the temple, how it was adorned with fine stones and dedicated things, 6 he said: “As for these things that you now see, the days will come when not a stone will be left upon a stone and not be thrown down.” 7 Then they questioned him, saying: “Teacher, when will these things actually be, and what will be the sign when these things are to occur?”

 

 

 

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Where is that picture found? So much time and effort is taken to discredit the explanation about the generation of our time and how the slave has botch it over and over again. It truly is quite simple when one uses common sense. Jesus spoke to his disciples about the things that would occur, would they indeed speak to others would be anointed? In 40 CE? 50 CE? Even in 60CE? These would be contemporaries of the apostles still alive. There are anointe who KNOW about 1914 today still alive. Ones are still being chosen by Jehovah, the sealing is not complete. We confuse that there is a 'remnant' here on earth as if the number needed has been completeted. That is not true. Jehovah is choosing and since ones could still fall away, the number needed will never be complete until they are called before Armageddon. The complete number which is spoken of only twice in scripture is when they are in heaven, never while any are still on earth. We gave that confusion. Only 144000, that's all. Not some herr and some there. We don't know how many are here. Jehovah are still choosing some to rule with his Son. It did not stop at 1935. It only began at 33 CE.  That is what scripture teaches!

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One day while out in Service with probably the smartest, most well educated Brother and Elder I have ever met .... he was driving, I was shotgun, and there were two in the back seat ... I mentioned to him that even though I had tried to understand it, I just could not understand the "Overlapping Generations" explanation ... and I asked him if he understood it, and could explain it to me..

He got real quiet, thought for about 15 seconds and said "I think they are trying to do the best they can ...."

I have talked to several Elders, asking about that, and NONE could give me an explanation, and did not even want to talk about it ... and I did not push it any further.

It makes no sense whatsoever .... it's almost like a test, to see if they can say the sky is bright red, filled with flying elephants, and see if everybody will believe it.

AND BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE IT, THEY ALSO WILL SEE IT!

I realize they are grasping at straws, trying to defend the totally indefensible .... that they were 100% wrong for over a hundred years ... but do they so transparently have to publicly play all of us for complete delusional fools?

 

 

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6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I added the 33 C.E. to 70 C.E. portion to begin a discussion on the topic.

Do you think Timothy was part of that "generation"? Or Eutychus?

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6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

portion to begin a discussion on the topic

I don't know, is there anything to discuss? All I know is my experience has been similar to that of JTR. The friends I talked with find it quite unimportant. It still baffles me why this subject (in broadcasting) was even raised. It seems odd that Br. Splane didn't begin the topic with something like "many of our friends have been wondering what Jesus's generation really means" OR "we have received letters asking about the generation" which he surely would have done had it been the case. It would have been the perfect introduction to start this subject.  Is it possible that no one really wondered about it? Then why bother trying to speculate on the matter if it isn't crystal clear already? It makes me wonder whether this isn't a little carrot on the end of a stick....

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13 minutes ago, Anna said:

It makes me wonder whether this isn't a little carrot on the end of a stick....

To what end? And if the donkey doesn't see the carrot..................?

Or maybe less facetiously, are you saying this is an illustration to placate "end of this system" oriented Christians to keep plodding on? How many of them do you think there are?

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35 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

are you saying this is an illustration to placate "end of this system" oriented Christians to keep plodding on? How many of them do you think there are?

Yes, I could be wrong, but it does seem like that to me. Not sure what you mean by your second question, about how many do I think there are....that need placating? 

I don't think we need placating to keep plodding on. And I think it can be dangerous to do it this way, and could back fire!

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  •                         33CE            70CE
  •   [ Great-Grand Parents ]                         
  •          [  Grand-Parents        ]        
  •                  [     Parents         ]   
  •                          [   "This Generation"  ]
  •                                  [        Children     ]
  •                                            Grand-Children   ]
  •                                                [ Great-Grand-Children ]

In 33 CE, it's easy to assume that Jesus addressed people from 15 to 55, with younger exceptions and older exceptions. But it seems likely that only persons in a 30-to-40-year range of ages could reasonably identify themselves with the generation he was addressing. More specifically we know that Jesus was primarily addressing his own apostles, assumed to be men of his own age group, as if his own "brothers" in the same generation.

We know from the context of Exodus 1:6 that the term generation was often used in a sense similar to the chart above, where a person along with his brothers (and sisters) constituted a typical generation. (The LXX translates the Hebrew word in Exodus 1:6 the same as Matthew's Greek term for generation.)

  • (Exodus 1:1-6) . . .Now these are the names of Israel’s [Jacob's] sons who came into Egypt with Jacob, each man who came with his household: 2 Reuʹben, Simʹe·on, Leʹvi, and Judah; 3 Isʹsa·char, Zebʹu·lun, and Benjamin; 4 Dan and Naphʹta·li; Gad and Ashʹer. 5 And all those who were born to Jacob were 70 people, but Joseph was already in Egypt. 6 Joseph eventually died, and also all his brothers and all that generation.

In fact, we know that this is exactly how generation had just been used just a few verses earlier in the final verses of Genesis.

  • 23 Joseph saw the third generation of Eʹphra·im’s sons, also the sons of Maʹchir, Ma·nasʹseh’s son. They were born upon Joseph’s knees. 24 At length Joseph said to his brothers: “I am dying, but God will without fail turn his attention to you, and he will certainly bring you up out of this land to the land about which he swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.” 25 So Joseph made the sons of Israel swear, saying: “God will without fail turn his attention to you. You must take my bones up out of here.” 26 And Joseph died at the age of 110, and they had him embalmed, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt.

So, "that generation" in Exodus 1:6 refers to the generation of Joseph's brothers. It does not include his father Jacob's generation, nor his own sons Ephraim and Manasseh, nor their sons or grandsons (the third generation). I notice that Brother Splane (who refers to Exodus 1:6) would never refer to these verses that lead up to it. But even on its own, Exodus 1 already makes clear that this is one generation of brothers, and that you don't include someone's children and grandchildren and great grandchildren in that same generation.

If a typical lifespan in Jesus' day was 60 years, then just like now, people would sometimes live long enough to see, not just their grandchildren, but also their great-grandchildren. Joseph lived to be nearly twice that age, and would therefore potentially see a third or even fourth generation. But the fourth generation is not the same as the first generation.

It's also the way Matthew uses the term generation:

(Matthew 1:17) 17 All the generations, then, from Abraham until David were 14 generations; from David until the deportation to Babylon, 14 generations; from the deportation to Babylon until the Christ, 14 generations.

And it's the way we today use the term generation:

*** w98 9/1 p. 28 I Learned to Rely on Jehovah ***
My health is no longer very good, so the brothers drive me to the Kingdom Hall. I find pleasure in being there and enjoy giving comments at the Watchtower Study. I am especially happy to see representatives of three generations of my family serving Jehovah, including several of the grandchildren.

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6 hours ago, Outta Here said:

Do you think Timothy was part of that "generation"? Or Eutychus?

So, if Timothy or Eutychus were alive in 33CE, which is very possible, then he could have been part of "this generation." Paul could very well have been the same age as Jesus had been, and Timothy could very well have been 15 to 20 years younger than Paul, maybe more. It's only reasonable that Jesus meant persons who were alive at the time could have been addressed as "THIS generation." One might argue that if Timothy had been born in 40CE, that perhaps he had a brother or sister who had been born in 33CE, which COULD stretch him back into that generation that Jesus addressed. But then Jesus' words become less meaningful, because his point was that many people alive right then would live to see it. And if all those people died off and ONLY people who weren't alive yet lived to see it, then Jesus would have been seen as a false prophet.

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6 hours ago, Anna said:

I don't think we need placating to keep plodding on. And I think it can be dangerous to do it this way, and could back fire!

I think it has already backfired.

In my considered opinion EVERYTHING they say ... that I cannot independently prove .. is completely and always suspect, with the baseline assumption that it is just another silly delusion to cover up past delusions that have become so painfully obvious, that it is affecting donations.

.... merely a contemporary way of saying that we should be like Bereans and CHECK everything ..... which as an organization,  and as publishers and students,  we have NOT been doing .... for a VERY long time.

ANY organization sitting in a pool of "free money", under a waterfall of "free money" will do ANYTHING to keep the free money coming.

... even make up bald faced lies from thin air, and believe it themselves.

That's why Watchtower Lawyers do NOT "fight" for justice .... they fight for their client to WIN.

In that respect we are not even unusual ... just being what all human beings naturally are.

Their credibility as to be worthy of intrinsic trust .... is ZERO.

They need no help from "apostates" to self-mutilate their own credibility.  They are their very own worst enemy. Others' efforts are  only supportive ... NOT the cause.

... and I think the "Overlapping Generations" weaseling  is the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

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For whatever it’s worth, here’s an interesting item of history that I read from Professor Allitt: Americans so readily bought in the stories about the ghoulish & inhuman doings of ‘the Huns’ in WWI, which later proved to be false, that when stories emerged about atrocities toward the Jews in WWII, some said, “We’re not falling for that again!” and thus they were “wrong twice.”

 

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2 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

American’s so readily bought in the stories about the ghoulish & inhuman doings of ‘the Huns’ in WWI, which later proved to be false

I guess you mean that as Witnesses, we bought into the wrong definition of generation, once, then twice, then three times, then four times, then five times, so that this sixth version might actually be right, but we don't want to fall for it like we did the last five times?

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There isn’t a “group 2” in Jesus’ words, but an ongoing generated seed, either “born” of God’s Spirit, (Ps 112:2; 1 Pet 1:23; Phil 2:15)  or of the spirit of Satan.  Deut 32:5; John 8:44; Matt 12:39; Eph 2:2  Two generations of different fathers, have produced a seed and exist down to this day.  Gen 3:15

Jesus’ words about the temple being destroyed have another fulfillment today.  Another set of “stones”, “living stones” have been “thrown down” with a “Gentile” army trampling the Temple (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22; 2 Thess 2:1-4; Rev 11:1,2)…in the organization. 

If this wasn’t true, then the prophesy of the Great Tribulation would not be applied to the last days.

Luke 21:5-36

At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

 He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees.30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The kingdom of God didn’t arrive then, when that literal generation passed away.   

2 Pet 3:7,12,13 - By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. (A “wicked generation”)

as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. (a “righteous/upright generation” Ps 112:2)  Rev 21:1,3; 1 Cor 3:16,17

“Fire” symbolized God’s Word which reveals lies and establishes truth, in the last days.  Jer 23:29; 5:14; Heb 1:7; Rev 11:1-3,5

Watchtower’s ongoing lie about “this generation” will be consumed by the fire of God’s Word. Isa 24:6; Hos 6:5; Matt 24:48,51; 2 Thess 1:8

 

Pearl Doxsey an anointed one, has written much about the meaning of "generation".  What one person, a woman, has done to reveal truth, eight men who stumble in the dark, will never accomplish.  God chooses the lowly, not the arrogant, to reveal His Word.  Ezek 21:25,26

4womaninthewilderness

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38 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

so that this sixth version might actually be right, but we don't want to fall for it like we did the last five times?

The seventh will be the ticket. You know how it works with seven. Rework your scenario to put us on the seventh right now—for example, expand one into an A and a B part—and you are golden.

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15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The "God's Kingdom Rules" book. From the chart on page 12. Of course, the actual chart only shows the following portion:

image.png

I added the 33 C.E. to 70 C.E. portion to begin a discussion on the topic.

No, you added the other part to be cute and to illustrate your inability to grasp a simple and well illustrated (by D. Splane) the teaching on "this generation". If you are unable to understand something pray for understanding and do your due diligence in researching the subject in JW publications and videos. Meditate on them and if you still cannot understand then just wait. But, do not harm your chances of survival by ridicule and blasphemy.

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