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Bubba Johnson Jr

who is referred to here?

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13  Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant

    Hello guest!
about those who are sleeping in death,
    Hello guest!
so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope.
    Hello guest!
14  For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again,
    Hello guest!
so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus.
    Hello guest!
15  For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s
    Hello guest!
word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death;
16  because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s
    Hello guest!
voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.
    Hello guest!
17  Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds
    Hello guest!
to meet the Lord
    Hello guest!
in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.
    Hello guest!
18  So keep comforting one another with these words.

How many groups of anointed Christians are referred to here?

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On 7/12/2019 at 2:45 PM, Bubba Johnson Jr said:

How many groups of anointed Christians are referred to here?

I only see "two groups" of anointed here:

1. Those who are sleeping in death at the time the parousia arrives.

2. Those who are still alive when the time for the parousia arrives.

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On 7/12/2019 at 2:45 PM, Bubba Johnson Jr said:

13  Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant

    Hello guest!
about those who are sleeping in death,
    Hello guest!
so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope.
    Hello guest!
14  For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again,
    Hello guest!
so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus.
    Hello guest!
15  For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s
    Hello guest!
word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death;
16  because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s
    Hello guest!
voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.
    Hello guest!
17  Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds
    Hello guest!
to meet the Lord
    Hello guest!
in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.
    Hello guest!
18  So keep comforting one another with these words.

How many groups of anointed Christians are referred to here?

How many groups of anointed ones are referred to here?

1. Those who were "sleeping in death" in Paul's day (vss. 13, 14)

2. The "living who survive to the presence of the Lord" (vs. 15)

3."Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (vs.17)

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8 hours ago, Bubba Johnson Jr said:

1. Those who were "sleeping in death" in Paul's day (vss. 13, 14)

2. The "living who survive to the presence of the Lord" (vs. 15)

3."Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (vs.17)

You haven't identified a third group. What you have called a "third" group is really just a comment about the first two groups.

In fact, the scenario reminds me of an actual situation that happened when I worked at 1500 Broadway in NYC's Times Square, and a national TV network rented out our huge (warm) conference room on the third floor overlooking the crowds who come to watch a ball drop on New Year's Eve.

There would be celebrities coming in to our building, some entertainment, and free food and drink. Some people at this company worked a late shift with the computers (running end of year, end of quarter reports) and they were going to be there when it happened (when the ball dropped). Some people were going home first and then coming back, hopefully, in time to get back into the building. 

  • GROUP 1: Those who would go home first before coming back to see the event.
  • GROUP 2: Those who would still be working here at the time of the event.
  • GROUP 3? At the time of the event, it will be New Year's, and those in GROUP 1 and those in GROUP 2 can then both come into the unused side of the conference room at the same time, hoping to meet celebrities, the TV crews, watch the crowds below, etc.

As you can see, there is no real GROUP 3 being described. It's just a comment about the situation for those in GROUP 1 and those in GROUP 2. In fact, you can even imagine someone worrying that those who have gone home first might not be back in time for the event and subsequent celebration.

You might even be able to imagine that there could be some jealousy that those who were working at the time would have access to the celebration when those who had gone home, might miss out. You could even imagine someone in management saying:

Moreover, workers, we want you to know that those who went home already will not miss out on the celebration. They will still be back in time to meet us here. For though most of the roads will be blocked to taxis and cars, still, if we have faith in the subways, and that the guards downstairs will be there to let them in the building, then they will be brought here in time with us. For this is what we tell you, that we the working who remain here until the celebratory event, will in no way precede those who have already gone home; because they are coming back here and will be allowed into the building with their passes. Afterward, we the working who are still working when the event begins, will be allowed into the conference room, together with them at the same time. And we will thus all be in the conference room together. So no one should worry about their fellow workers who will have already gone home first. Keep comforting one another with these words.

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On 7/14/2019 at 11:58 PM, Bubba Johnson Jr said:

whaaaaaaatttttttt!???

I understand completely.😀

I get kind of carried away when it comes to illustrating a point. Also, I never went to any of those celebrations, although I did work past midnight once on December 31st at 1500 Broadway, not even 500 feet from where the ball drops, and I came over to watch it out the window. "Crazy" people line up for 10 blocks to the north and 10 blocks to the south to see it from either side.

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If anyone is interested, I was able to move all the comments that were related to the CAIN topic over to here:

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/forums/topic/84241-did-cain-marry-his-sister/

Yes, I know it wasn't originally about Cain marrying his sister, but if JTR has a better name for it, I can still change it (I think).

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On 7/14/2019 at 12:34 PM, Bubba Johnson Jr said:

How many groups of anointed ones are referred to here?
1. Those who were "sleeping in death" in Paul's day (vss. 13, 14)
2. The "living who survive to the presence of the Lord" (vs. 15)

I wanted to see what I might be missing from your point. I assumed that by adding a third point to the above, that you were saying there was a third group of anointed being addressed. So, to figure out where your idea differs, I color-coded the 2 groups above so that I can map them to the persons mentioned in your third group:

On 7/14/2019 at 12:34 PM, Bubba Johnson Jr said:

3."Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air"

So, to me, this seems to say: . . . Afterward, we in GROUP 2 will, together with GROUP 1, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air. . .

I still don't see a GROUP 3. Can you explain?

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Asking about, for example, how many  JW witnesses groups exist, can bring us to answers as: Past and Present, Loyal and Not Loyal, Zeal and not Zeal, Discreet and Non Discreet, Died and Alive .... etc. What would be benefit of such research?

You can used the same methods for "anointed". And come to similar answers.    

What is the purpose for your question, and by what methods, by what tools, you want to making operation upon verses to see what is the content under the skin? :))

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21 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What is the purpose for your question, and by what methods, by what tools, you want to making operation upon verses to see what is the content under the skin? :))

It's a good question. I think it might be related to the fact that @Bubba Johnson Jr put these verses in his profile along with Brother Splane's updated "Chart of the Ages" that tried to explain the "overlapping groups of Anointed in 'This Generation.' " He posted this chart among the references to the verses above, and it obviously includes THREE GROUPS of anointed:

  1. Anointed who saw and discerned the sign in 1914
  2. Anointed who were once contemporaries with those who saw and discerned the sign in 1914
  3. Anointed who were not contemporaries with those who saw and discerned the sign in 1914

It's possible that Bubba hopes to find scriptural support for the THREE GROUPS, marked separately in the chart below. But I don't understand his reasoning, and I hope he will explain. Here is what Bubba posted adjacent to the verses above:

    Hello guest!

 

  • What are “all these things”?

  • How does

      Hello guest!
    help us to understand the meaning of “generation”?

  • To what particular generation was Jesus referring?

  • What two groups make up “this generation”?

  • How do Jesus’ words indicate that we are living deep in the time of the end?

 

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I think I can answer the question above under the chart that asks: "How do Jesus's words indicate that we are living deep in the time of the end?"

A. Because if we were to look carefully at the chart and notice the scale that was used to indicate the time for each event, we can see that the Great Tribulation breaks out exactly 148 years after 1893, which is the year 2041. Therefore we are living deep in the time of the end.

toscale.png

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40 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

It's possible that Bubba hopes to find scriptural support for the THREE GROUPS, marked separately in the chart below. But I don't understand his reasoning, and I hope he will explain. Here is what Bubba posted adjacent to the verses above:

    Hello guest!

It is also very possible that @Bubba Johnson Jr would like to know When Great Tribulation will start :)) 

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7 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

imageproxy.php?img=&key=12f10edf8c0914d4I think I can answer the question above under the chart that asks: "How do Jesus's words indicate that we are living deep in the time of the end?"

A. Because if we were to look carefully at the chart and notice the scale that was used to indicate the time for each event, we can see that the Great Tribulation breaks out exactly 148 years after 1893, which is the year 2041. Therefore we are living deep in the time of the end.

toscale.png

 

Amazing! :)) I like it,  how you know to use all this digital tools and incorporate measuring strip in millimeter division on picture so precisely. Excellent work :))

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3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I wanted to see what I might be missing from your point. I assumed that by adding a third point to the above, that you were saying there was a third group of anointed being addressed. So, to figure out where your idea differs, I color-coded the 2 groups above so that I can map them to the persons mentioned in your third group:

So, to me, this seems to say: . . . Afterward, we in GROUP 2 will, together with GROUP 1, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air. . .

I still don't see a GROUP 3. Can you explain?

I have just gotten online for today and I did not realize that this firestorm had erupted. I will be back on when I get something to eat. Be back soon!...Tom (Bubba)

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A fine example of three groups that overlap would be the adherents of JTR, of John Butler, and of Srecko. 

Put them on the same planet and they will fight like cats and dogs. Put them on the worldnewsmediaforum, and they suddenly find that they are practically bedfellows.

As the light gets brighter, we can even make out 4, for there is always Witness.

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1 hour ago, Bubba Johnson Jr said:

Be back soon!...Tom (Bubba)

“Now as TrueTom was saying these things in his defense, Festus said in a loud voice: “You are going out of your mind, TrueTom! Great learning is driving you out of your mind!”  But TrueTom said: “I am not going out of my mind, Your Excellency Festus. Well, actually, you do have a point. I guess I am going nuts, but it is not on account of great learning. I am spending too much time with the yo-yos on the worldnewsmediaforum.”

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10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Amazing! :)) I like it,  how you know to use all this digital tools and incorporate measuring strip in millimeter division on picture so precisely. Excellent work :))

 

Millimeter Scale.jpg

This is AMERUKA!  We don't use no stinkin' SI Units in AMERUKA!

We are red-blooded Bible-Totin' red white and blue  people that use FEET, and INCHES, like the Lord intended normal people to use.  Millimeters, PAH!, that what drug dealers use when rolling reefers!

Here in Ameruka SI unites is an abbreviation for SISSY man ... the kind of man that will watch Star Trek and yell for Captain Kirk to set his Phaser on STUN!

REAL MEN don't use STUN. and REAL MEN don't use millimeters !  Tha's for the French who drive those tiny little two seater cars with horns that go "Heunk! Heunk!"

And Amerulum Surveyors are the manliest men of all.  they go through reptile infested swamps, loaded with disease and death, measuring property lines on brackish water, with CHAINS. They come home from work with bug bites that CAST SHADOWS, like craters on the Moon! After six or eight beers, they hardly notice!

Millimeters ... PAH!

Next thing you know, they will be measuring "Overlapping Generations" in CUBITS!

 

Surveyor's Chain.jpg

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Quote

OK scripture in question: 1 Thess. 5:13-18

On 7/12/2019 at 2:45 PM, Bubba Johnson Jr said:

13  Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant

    Hello guest!
about those who are sleeping in death,
    Hello guest!
so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope.
    Hello guest!
14  For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again,
    Hello guest!
so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus.
    Hello guest!
15  For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s
    Hello guest!
word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death
; 16  because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s
    Hello guest!
voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.
    Hello guest!
17  Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds
    Hello guest!
to meet the Lord
    Hello guest!
in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.
    Hello guest!
18  So keep comforting one another with these words.

#1. Paul did not want congregation members to be uninformed about those who were sleeping in death (vs.13) God would resurrect them just as he did Jesus - in time. Even Jesus was nonexistent for a short time. These ones, although anointed with a valid heavenly hope had to die must wait in death as did Paul. However, when Christ came as King in 1914, those who were dead in union with Christ rose first (vs. 16).

Anointed Christians alive as humans on earth at that time, would not be instantly raised to heaven prior to these ones who have been asleep for so long in death. (vs. 15b: that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death.) : this is the beginning of the first part of "this generation" that Jesus said "would not pass away, until all these things occur"; which includes the final battle, Armageddon, in which ALL of the 144,000 resurrected sons of God WILL participate in. When these ones die during Christ's presence they are resurrected, "in a moment, in the blink of an eye" and join the others who had been sleeping for so long as spirit creatures in the Kingdom.

At some point prior to Armageddon "17  Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds

    Hello guest!
to meet the Lord
    Hello guest!
in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord."  This is the remnant of the anointed congregation, which will include the second part of "this generation" that did NOT pass away until all these things occurred. This group, of which all of the Governing Body is a part of is, as Brother Splane said "is certainly showing their age."
 

 

 

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#1 We will not know the "day or the hour" until it occurs, but we have enough evidence to see that we are, as David Shafer said "right on the cusp of the Great Tribulation

#2 I would never add anything to an illustration developed by the "faithful and discreet slave" to help us to understand what Jesus Christ is saying to us NOW.

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

A fine example of three groups that overlap would be the adherents of JTR, of John Butler, and of Srecko. 

Put them on the same planet and they will fight like cats and dogs. Put them on the worldnewsmediaforum, and they suddenly find that they are practically bedfellows.

As the light gets brighter, we can even make out 4, for there is always Witness.

TTH, a true JW, sarcastic and insulting because he has nothing constructive to say. 

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24 minutes ago, Bubba Johnson Jr said:

 

#2 I would never add anything to an illustration developed by the "faithful and discreet slave" to help us to understand what Jesus Christ is saying to us NOW.

I understand you may be concerned about adding anything to scripture (or taking away), since that is a very serious thing, but adding something to what is after all human speculation, surely is not a big deal?

Also, what Jesus Christ is saying to us now, is what he said 2000 years ago, and is recorded in the Bible for anyone to see.

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Just now, Anna said:

I understand you may be concerned about adding anything to scripture (or taking away), since that is a very serious thing, but adding something to what is after all human speculation, surely is not a big deal?

I completely agree ... IF IT IS CLEARLY LABELED AS ONLY SPECULATION.

Without a clear and unambiguous disclaimer, capable of being understood by almost ANYONE with a 7th grade education ... so clear that it CANNOT be misunderstood ... it is merely a false prophesy, intended to keeps the troops motivated, afraid, and keep the money rolling in.

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10 minutes ago, Anna said:

Also, what Jesus Christ is saying to us now, is what he said 2000 years ago, and is recorded in the Bible for anyone to see.

Exactly!

This is not like Groundhog Day, where men in tuxedos and top hats , with cameras rolling, wait for the baby Jesus to come out of his cave, pick him up and after pretending to listen, declare that there will be six more years of tribulation.

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50 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

This is AMERUKA!  We don't use no stinkin' SI Units in AMERUKA!

I was almost choked from laugh on comment of yours :)))))))

Well @JW Insider now you have new task, to put INCH Measure, and perhaps we shall get new length result for years. Urim and Thummim - Millimeters and Inches... hahhahaha.

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22 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

it is merely a false prophesy, intended to keeps the troops motivated, afraid, and keep the money rolling in.

I do not believe that. But we are both entitled to our opinion 🙂

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1 hour ago, Bubba Johnson Jr said:

#2 I would never add anything to an illustration developed by the "faithful and discreet slave" to help us to understand what Jesus Christ is saying to us NOW.

Why not? Are GB theories something like Medo-Persian Laws of unchangeable things.....or Immutable data? :))))

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2 hours ago, Bubba Johnson Jr said:

#1 We will not know the "day or the hour" until it occurs, but we have enough evidence to see that we are, as David Shafer said "right on the cusp of the Great Tribulation

#2 I would never add anything to an illustration developed by the "faithful and discreet slave" to help us to understand what Jesus Christ is saying to us NOW.

1. We are probably 100 years away from the Judgement. God has to sort out a reliable honest loving Organisation here on Earth first. 

2. And if I say JW's worship the GB, here is a great example, and once again the misuse of that phrase F&DS. 

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Now TrueTom, knowing that the one part was made up of Rookites but the other of Butlerites, and yet another of Sreckoites, and let us not forget Witnessites, cried out in the Forum: “Men, brothers, I am a writer, a son of writers. Over the existence of God I am being judged.”  Because he said this, a dissension arose between the Rookites and the Butlerites and the Sreckotites, and the Witnessites, and the assembly was split.

For the Sreckotites say that there is neither resurrection nor angel nor spirit, but the Rookites accept them all except for 85% that they say is crap. And the Butlerites also say the 85% is crap, but they DO believe in some of the 15%. And the Witnessites believe—well, who knows what they believe except that their Queen Mother is the REAL anointed and the anointed of Jehovah’s Witnesses are no good—and the Queen Mother has a Facebook page to prove it. 

So a great uproar broke out, and some of the ones with common sense of the party rose and began arguing fiercely, saying: “We find nothing wrong in this man, but if a spirit or an angel spoke to him—.”  Now when the dissension grew great, the military commander feared that TrueTom would be torn apart by them, and he commanded the soldiers to go down and snatch him from their midst and bring him into the soldiers’ quarters. 

All in a day’s work.

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I suppose TTH thinks he is funny.  Keep writing those books Tom. Perhaps Tom thinks he's on a level with his GB.

A bit of fame, a lot of followers, and writing rubbish which it seems some folks are empty headed enough to read and believe. 

 

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17 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I suppose TTH thinks he is funny.

In this case, the gist of the spoof is spot-on, even if the humor should miss. The four participants referred to are implacably opposed regarding spiritual matters, but for the sake of slamming the JW organization, they are soul-mates. Get them scrabbling with each other, and I can write my next book in peace.

And don’t get me going about the Billyites, the Bubbatites, The Annites, and the JWwhites.

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8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

and he commanded the soldiers to go down and snatch him from their midst and bring him into the soldiers’ quarters.

hehehe, do not forget - you are in this "lion cave", "prison" voluntary, you entered in it by your own free will and choice. :))

....i am not sure about part where - but if a spirit or an angel spoke to him - because that would be contrary to official teachings how people in JW Church are not "inspired". If someone today would go with claim how spirit or angel spoke to him, people, not only worldly but JW people especially, will be very suspicious about mental health of that individual. :))

But you are Writer of books. You have licence to write what ever you like. Artistic freedom..... i almost wrote Arctic freedom but google translate put red line under word to alarm me. :)))))

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20 hours ago, Bubba Johnson Jr said:

#1 We will not know the "day or the hour" until it occurs, but we have enough evidence to see that we are, as David Shafer said "right on the cusp of the Great Tribulation

This is true. But then again this will always be true because the end is closer now than at the time we became believers.

  • (Romans 13:11, 12) . . .And do this because you know the season, that it is already the hour for you to awake from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than at the time when we became believers. 12 The night is well along; the day has drawn near.. . .

Since the late 1600's, especially, religions that focus on where we are in terms of chronology and prophecy have claimed we are at the cusp of the Great Tribulation. The Millerite movement apparently produced at least 100,000 people who could be convinced that 1843/1844 was the end. A Millerite named Barbour was able to convince Russell from his updated version of Miller's chronology that Barbour had used to prove 1873/1874 was the end. The Watchtower said that the signs were unmistakable that the last days had begun in 1799 and the Watchtower pointed to heavenly signs in the sun and stars in the early 1800's as proof. The evidence is so overwhelming now, today, that it would seem crazy to deny that we are deep into the last days, and yet we should keep in mind that the evidences seemed just as overwhelming to Miller, Barbour, Russell and others, and probably just as overwhelming to Paul's contemporaries.

And we truly HAVE been on the cusp of the Great Tribulation ever since 70 C.E. when the first part of the prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem was fulfilled. Remember that Jesus said that "immediately after those days, the sun would be darkened" etc. As Peter said, it could be 1,000 years off, and yet we are still to live as if the parousia could be within our lifetime. If we happen to survive to that time, we were on the cusp, and if we happen to die before that time, we were on the cusp, because our next waking second after our death, should be in the resurrection.

 

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This above is so funny, just as funny as the overlapping generations.  A JW excuse to keep people in the Org.

Tell them the 'end is nigh'  and also tell them they have to be a baptised JW to survive. Scaremongering and blackmail rolled into one. 

Well I suppose it does keep the $$$$$$ rolling in.  

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21 hours ago, Bubba Johnson Jr said:

#2 I would never add anything to an illustration developed by the "faithful and discreet slave" to help us to understand what Jesus Christ is saying to us NOW.

I hope you know that the ruler I added to the illustration was just a joke, to show how anxious some people are to get any additional information about the timing of the Great Tribulation. The joke is actually based on comments that Russell made, and a related comment here by someone else about how Russell had used just such a method on a rough illustration of the Great Pyramid at Giza. He took the original illustration from C. Piazzi Smyth's book (1864) about the Great Pyramid, and tried to measure various lengths to show where all the prophesied dates in the pyramid landed and finally ended. Most of this was borrowed from Joseph Seiss who had not only done the same thing, but who had "teased" the readers of his book (MIracle in Stone, 1877) by producing an illustration which didn't exactly predict the end date but showed the reader the "known" dates, in an illustration and then tempted the reader with just how easy it would be to see where the dates of the Great Pyramid finally dropped off. He said he wouldn't include that date in the text of his book because it might not be prudent. It was clearly designed to tempt readers to get out a ruler and measure it for themselves.

    Hello guest!

C. Piazzi Smyth himself and Seiss, elsewhere, had predicted dates for the end from the 1880's up until the early 1900's as each previous date failed.

So my joke was NOT intended to add any further information about what we could know, but only because I agree with Jesus and Paul about the silliness of any such attempts:

  • (Acts 1:7) 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.
  • (1 Thessalonians 5:1) . . .Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you.

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37 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Not so much as it encourages people not to blow off Jesus’ words as nothing:

’”What I say to you, I say to all; keep on the watch.”

It is enough just to know that there will be a judgement time. And it is enough to know that God will decide when. 

Anything beyond that goes beyond the things written. 

Keep on the watch does not mean make false announcements. It does not mean frighten people into staying in an organisation.  People should be content with the 'mana', God's word the Bible. People should not need threats or blackmail. 

As the song goes 'Where is the love?' 

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45 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

So my joke was NOT intended to add any further information about what we could know, but only because I agree with Jesus and Paul about the silliness of any such attempts:

  • (Acts 1:7) 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.
  • (1 Thessalonians 5:1) . . .Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you.

Oh, Ok. I misunderstood the joke. Was my explanation clear. I tried to keep my thoughts together long enough to type them out. This was something that just dawned on me because of comments in recent WT studies. I realized that I did not fully understand those scriptures in 1 Thess. 5. The JW Library and other web sites by WT Society makes it easy to research the scriptures thoroughly. Up to the present understanding. I appreciate your comments.

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56 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

’”What I say to you, I say to all; keep on the watch.”

Absolutely TTH! I see from your comment that you understand the significance of the heightened understanding of these things. We do not become angry and attack others simply because what is being discussed does not hold any personal interest. However, you are certainly correct about Jesus' words, 'what I say to you, -(let the reader use discernment)*my comment - I say to ALL, keep on the watch!'

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27 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

It is enough just to know that there will be a judgement time. And it is enough to know that God will decide when

And it is enough to know that He won’t get around to it for a long time—it is “a long ways off.” That way, hit the ‘snooze’ and catch a few more zzzzz’s

’Keeping on the watch’ is a bear.

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1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

It is enough just to know that there will be a judgement time. And it is enough to know that God will decide when. 

Anything beyond that goes beyond the things written. 

Keep on the watch does not mean make false announcements. It does not mean frighten people into staying in an organisation.  People should be content with the 'mana', God's word the Bible. People should not need threats or blackmail. 

As the song goes 'Where is the love?' 

These are the things that are written:

"Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16  because everything in the worldthe desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world" (1John 2:15)

John, honestly, what percentage of people would you say "love" the things in the world?

"....... you know the season, that it is already the hour for you to awake from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than at the time when we became believers. 12  The night is well along; the day has drawn near. Let us therefore throw off the works belonging to darkness and let us put on the weapons of the light. 13  Let us walk decently as in the daytime, not in wild parties and drunkenness, not in immoral intercourse and brazen conduct, not in strife and jealousy. 14  But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not be planning ahead for the desires of the flesh". (Romans13:11-14)

 “But pay attention to yourselves that your hearts never become weighed down with overeating and heavy drinking and anxieties of life, and suddenly that day be instantly upon you  as a snare. For it will come upon all those dwelling on the face of the whole earth. 36  Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things that must occur and in standing before the Son of man.” (Luke 21:34-35)

The above scriptures I conveniently extracted from a July 2016 study WT article "Why must we keep on the watch". 

The article concludes: "Through the pages of the Bible, God and Christ tell us what they have in store for us in the immediate future and how we can keep on the watch. We have to pay attention to our spirituality, to our relationship with Jehovah, and to Kingdom priorities. We must be aware of time and events so that we can be ready for what is coming. (Rev. 22:20) Our life is at stake!

Perhaps you might want to peruse the article to check that there is nothing beyond what is written in the scriptures.

    Hello guest!

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Bubba Johnson Jr said:

I realized that I did not fully understand those scriptures in 1 Thess. 5.

 

1 hour ago, Anna said:

Perhaps you might want to peruse the article to confirm that there is nothing beyond what is written in the scriptures.

Moreover, if they really wanted to pump everyone into fever pitch, as John charges they do, they would not have let 1Thess 5:2-3 go unmentioned during last week’s assigned Bible reading—the verse about “whenever they are crying ‘peace and security.’ They would have hyped it to the heavens. Instead, they let it pass unnoticed.

I think they are sailing a “steady as she goes” course among treacherous waters, doing their best not to overhype nor underhype. I just don’t like to second-guess their every move. Everyone knows what a pain a back-seat driver is. I don’t want to be one.

Does John want to go back to what he once was doing, reasoning that it is enough to know that the end is “out there somewhere?” This course I believe we are “not allowed” to take—not by the GB, but by Jesus, if we would prove ourselves faithful to him. Does John point to things he thinks the GB does wrong? (Does he ever!) I note how Miriam and Aaron began to speak against Moses on account of his Cushite wife—and how Jehovah really, really didn’t like that, and He let them hear about it. This was so even though Moses actually did have a Cushite wife.

As much as it is good to roam history in the spirit of “he who does not know history is doomed to repeat it,” it is probably one of those things we are just going to have to accept that we do from time to time. The presumed motivation for so searching past publications is so that we do not yet again emerge with egg on our face when something doesn’t turn out as anticipated. I think it is fair to assume that we may—for the alternative is to forget all about “keeping on the watch”—the opposite shoal, which is even more dangerous than the one we are trying to navigate.

To the extent that the intent is to appear “respectable” by never again having to backtrack on prior expectations, I think the intent is misguided, though certainly understandable. Paul was described as a “pest” who was leading a “sect.” Witnesses today can expect no more. Christians then were considered the “offscouring” of the earth. Witnesses today can expect no more. 

What we have on this site is multiple players trying to make the case that the doers are doing it wrong—overlooking the fact that in most cases they themselves are doing nothing. Witnesses just have to accept that it will be that way. Malcontents and renegades will pick up the same refrain as you-know-who, the one who “accuses our brothers day and night before our God.”

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Request please:  would people refrain from down voting or up voting the arrow on the left because it throws the whole thread out of sinc and makes it harder to follow replies. It seems to be automatically set on "sort by votes" so if you want to see the chronological order of comments you have to keep clicking  "sort by date". It just gets to be a pain after a while.

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4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

This above is so funny, just as funny as the overlapping generations.  A JW excuse to keep people in the Org.

WILL YOU STOP SNORING SO LOUD!? I CAN’T HEAR MYSELF THINK!

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think John is right. Yes, I will backtrack some.

I now think that the end is probably a long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long ways off.

Tennis, anyone?

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@AnnaI would say 99.9% of the human race love the things of the world, including most JW's. Remember it was not that long ago I was one. JW's here in the UK are still having new houses built for them, still working long hours, still buying new cars. Still having parties, rather strange fancy dress parties actually, Elders dressing up as Batman and Incredible Hulk and putting photos up on their Facebook pages. No different to people of the world. Those things are not bad of course but what I'm saying is that most JW's here in the UK are 'still using the world to the full'. It would be stupid to try to pretend that JW's are much different to  anyone else in their daily lives. I've mentioned one young Elder before that spends a lot of time in his local pub and rides a bicycle to the pub but has to push the bike home due to his not being able to balance it to ride it home. :) I think it funny in a way, but I'm just relating it here to 'things of the world'. 

As for @TrueTomHarley well no hope I suppose. He dodges the points I make because he knows they are true. 

And poor old Tom is caught up with GB propaganda about the GB being equal to MOSES. Tom Tom, we've had this discussion so many times before.

MOSES WAS INSPIRED OF GOD AND PROVED IT. The GB are not inspired of God and admit it. Mose had direct contact with God and was given direct instruction BY GOD. The GB pretend to be the F&DS but CANNOT PROVE IT. AND, by their MISTAKES  you will know they are frauds. Does that not make any sense to you ? 

I know that God will have an honest loving organisation before the judgement comes. But at this moment in time the JW Org is not that honest loving organisation, and the GB are not serving God in an honest loving way. 

When an organisation has to use threats, lies and scaremongering to keep it's congregants, and has to make up rules that go beyond the scriptures (just as the Pharisees did),  and has to 'clean the outside of the dish or bowl' but not the inside, then it is obviously not God's true organisation. 

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21 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

WILL YOU STOP SNORING SO LOUD!? I CAN’T HEAR MYSELF THINK!

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think John is right. Yes, I will backtrack some.

I now think that the end is probably a long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long ways off.

Tennis, anyone?

Tom shows his fear of truth by trying to hide truth with sarcasm.  

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2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I would say 99.9% of the human race love the things of the world, including most JW's. Remember it was not that long ago I was one. JW's here in the UK are still having new houses built for them, still working long hours, still buying new cars. Still having parties, rather strange fancy dress parties actually, Elders dressing up as Batman and Incredible Hulk and putting photos up on their Facebook pages. No different to people of the world. Those things are not bad of course but what I'm saying is that most JW's here in the UK are 'still using the world to the full

Thank you for supporting the point I was trying to make. Yes, the majority of mankind, which includes many, many JWs, love the things in the world. So as you see, it's not enough to

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

 know that there will be a judgement time

I am sure you will agree that anyone who is concerned about this situation is moved to frequently remind the brothers and sisters of the urgency to keep on the watch.  Hence the magazine  "Why we must keep on the watch"

    Hello guest!

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Concerning "Loving Things of the World" ....

We are very fragile, big ugly bags of mostly water and require a LOT of things :of the world to stay alive, and healthy, and emotionally stable.

I have 16 pet chickens ( two died of heat exhaustion, from being run around the yard by my dogs, after flying out of their temporary enclosure, and I buried them this morning in the yard with little plastic pipe "tombstones" which I melted into the side with a soldering iron their names and date of death, which was yesterday).

And yet ... today at Golden Corral, my wife and I ate fried chicken, and I pondered "Am I a hypocrite, for loving both live chickens ... and those crispy fried??"

I looked at myself in the mirror, and noticed my eyes are in front (predator), and the chickens' eyes are on the side of their heads (prey), and decided that  that is the natural order of things, and I should just get used to it, without recriminations.

Besides .... "Love Never Fails" .... and with the fried  chicken .... it's no one we know.

 

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14 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

First, everyone should stick to the subject matter, rather than submit rolling commentaries to distract from that subject matter.

That's good advice. I really did take a risk in guessing that @Bubba Johnson Jr also had in mind how Brother Splane's "Chart of the Ages" could be related to 1 Thess 5. It turned out that I was right, and that this was not a distraction from the subject matter, but ended up getting right to the heart of the subject matter.

To me, the mistake that Russell made with the pyramids also gets exactly to the real heart of the matter. This is why, as a joke, I did something similar with Splane's chart to what Russell claimed he did with the charts of the crisscrossing drains and ducts that were built into the Pyramid. I won't discuss the pyramid topic in full here, but if anyone else is interested in a serious discussion I'm up for it under another topic heading.

Your own post was typical. A few things right, a few things wrong, a few WT quotes with unrelated information that you believe defended Russell. You add information that you pretend is not already simple and obvious so that you can call others ignorant and deceptive. Unfortunately, even if you already see where you were wrong, I still have come to expect only more attacks, arrogance, name calling and diversions.

If you want anyone to take you seriously, I recommend a method that gives more weight to facts and evidence, rather than just bluster and arrogance.

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8 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

What did your friend James say about the appeal for the truth? What conditions did he set forth?

I would like to know the answer to THAT one!

By the way ... that "Millions Now Living Will Never Die '' ... how well did THAT turn out?

1984_watchtower_cover_1914_generation.jpg.93a03a50421ae4d95f8097fcfc869a22.jpg

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9 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Something you should be used to by posting certain truths, with half-truths, and plain falsehoods.

Typical again. As usual, more false claims about others without evidence. That's bluster. But you add so much arrogance to your bluster. Furthermore, when it's pointed out, you reflexively project the things you do wrong back onto others.

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BTK46 has stated many times that everybody but him is ignorant, uneducated, a fool and worthy of derision ... and that we have no understanding of human psychology in dealing with his criticisms.

I think he may be right about that one,  as I often sit here wondering "Where does he GET these ideas?"

After all, it's not what WE think, it is what Scholar Emeritus BillyTheKid46 thinks that matters!

I have never seen in my entire life a person with MORE TALENT to be a Watchtower Lawyer.

He makes evil seem so effortless!

 

 

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1 minute ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

... when they have baby back beef spare ribs at the Golden Corral ( a USA all you can eat buffet restaurant ...) my table looks like a dinosaur graveyard...

Some of us cannot afford such luxury. I'm happy to get a bit of bacon.

@Anna  You see how some guys use this world  :) :) :) Love of the world and it's food.  :) 

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35 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Some of us cannot afford such luxury. I'm happy to get a bit of bacon.

Yeah .... I had to give up bacon many years ago, because I just could not afford it ... or would not afford it because the price was so high ... and MANY foods escalated in price to the point I stopped buying them.   But Golden Corral Buffet has a TREMENDOUS selection, and my wife and I are "Seniors", and if we get there before 4PM, we can get the dinner menu for the price of a "Senior Lunch/Early Bird Special".

That means that for $9.00 apiece, we can feast like kings ... steak, spare ribs, giant shrimp prepared four different ways, pizza, fried chicken, chili, beef stew, clam chowder ( my favorite...), and before 4pm we get free soft drinks, as well. Every kind of desert you could want, and any kind of salads you could fix. Eight different kinds of fruit,  and all the real, quality ice cream you can eat!

I calculated that by eating one large meal a day, we can eat like kings for $10 a day apiece, which is less than the cost of groceries to eat half as well,  AAAAAAND ... no preparation, OR dishes to wash! 

Even including the fuel cost to get there and back,, it's cheaper.

..and light years better!

 

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Sounds like a good idea. However, get a good breakfast - it is very important.  The body needs the food when we are facing the pressures of the day not late in the evening. It dumps most of the stuff then and we put on weight.  Before 4.00 p.m. seems OK, but get some healthy snacks in between.

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1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

There is no way to lose weight without being hungry.

... except of course, for cancer, or something.

Don't mention cancer, I'm trying not to think about it. 

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1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Don't mention cancer, I'm trying not to think about it. 

Well... Noah did not want to think about giraffes, either ... that's why when they showed up he had to cut two big square holes in the roof of the Ark.

Now... for the next few minutes, do NOT to think about Noah's Ark, with two big square holes cut in the roof, with giraffe necks and heads sticking out.

 

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2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

By your ignorance of not understanding that those people are not condemned to hell eternally as false religion had it at that time, I say it will go very well for those people that will be judged by Christ and not automatically be denied resurrection. At least, they have that hope, when you, Anna, ?Winsider have known, for becoming enemies of God, by your treacherous minds and tongues.

You know Billy, when I visualize you, I think of you either as a gutless weasel, or a venomous overgrown jellyfish, floating in the ocean.

I know in reality you are neither of those things, but somehow, every time you speak, that's the image I get.

I am more inclined towards the venomous jellyfish, as they have been alive and prosperous all over the Earth's oceans, for at least 300 million years .... with no brain whatsoever.

...... but today, your comments project an image of the gutless weasel.

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14 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You see how some guys use this world  :) :) :) Love of the world and it's food.  :)

Of course, I never denied any of this, if you read my reply....

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Do you think Jesus was kind to the pharisees? Matthew 23:33

Do you think Jesus was kind to the merchants in the temple? Matthew 21:13

Billy the Kid makes a good example here about the GB and JW Org. 

Thanks Billy for showing us just how Jesus would deal with both the GB and JW Org. 

The GB and the rest of the hierarchy act just as the Pharisees did and also use the JW Org / W/t soc to gain money and real estate just as those merchants did. 

Fine examples Billy, keep it up. 

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9 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Where have you seen the GB go against God’s commands that you people can’t give a straight answer to, but use misinterpreted scripture to make use of garbage ideology?

The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction. In fact, the Watch Tower Publications Index includes the heading “Beliefs Clarified,” which lists adjustments in our Scriptural understanding since 1870. 

source: 

    Hello guest!

This is general and public prove, that GB made such (not only minor mistake, but life important) mistakes in doctrines and instructions while leading people (members) with some "commands" that went/going against God and people.  

They can call that "adjustments", "brighter light", "path of righteous".... or somehow else. But GB Responsibility is complete on that. They have no excuse!

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BTK says "God would have no problem “rebuking” the Watchtower just as Jesus rebuked those in conflict with God’s commandants."

Now maybe God or Christ is punishing your GB / JW Org / Wt because of the CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE being allowed to go on and be kept hidden in those places. 

And maybe God or christ is punishing your GB / JW Org / Wt because the GB are misusing scripture by pretending to be the Faithful and discreet slave, and for exalting themselves above those of the Anointed Earthwide.

 For sure your GB and both Orgs have brought God's name into shame and disrepute by the Child Sexual Abuse situation EARTHWIDE in the Orgs.  

JW Lawyers have proved to be liars and totally dishonest and without love or feeling for victims, so I'm sure that is totally against God, Christ and scripture. 

How anyone can dare to condemn me but at the same time give praise to the GB and those two Orgs, it makes me laugh..

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22 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

That means, under the direction of the Watchtower GB, run by Witnesses, they have made, minor adjustment

GB is run by Witnesses ? This is exclusive new information! Shall we wait Official Announcement from JWTV? or to believe You? :)) 

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In the Armed forces in UK and USA there are rules WRITTEN DOWN for soldiers to follow strictly. 

Yet it has been proved that in many cases those soldiers did not follow the rules. 

It is also the same in the JW Org. However in the JW Org, it would seem as if the elders are told not to follow the rules that are written down.

The GB believe they have the right to tell lies and they call it spiritual warfare. So what is the point of them writing down rules which they know they will deliberately break. The point is, for people like BtK and Space Merchant to point to the written rules and say 'Look i told you so'. How blind are those people ? Anyone can write rules, but it does not mean anyone will live by them. 

 

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On 7/21/2019 at 8:25 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

it would seem

This is a statement implying uncertainty in the accuracy of what follows. This is no way to present the accusatory remarks that you make. It shows that at best they are only your opinion and that you yourself have doubt in their validity.

How different from the example we have been set. 

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4 hours ago, Outta Here said:

This is a statement implying uncertainty in the accuracy of what follows. This is no way to present the accusatory remarks that you make. It shows that at best they are only your opinion and that you yourself have doubt in their validity.

How different from the example we have been set. 

What example, oh yes, that Armageddon would be in 1914, then oh no, it would be in 1975, then oh no we must say  it will be soon as we need to keep the money rolling in. 

And, this generation will not pass away, but oh no, it didn't happen we have to say something else, um we must say it will be OVERLAPPING GENERATIONS, even though we have no idea really. 

Then of course, you must not use blood, um well maybe you can use parts of blood, um yes maybe you can use lots and lots of different parts of blood, and maybe possibly one day we will say that you can use full blood. 

There are some of the EXAMPLES you have been set. Set by a GB that call themselves the Faithful and Discreet slave, but have no proof of it and they even admit to not being INSPIRED although they say they are Anointed, but anointed by what we don't quite know yet . 

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