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TrueTomHarley

The Man of Lawlessness in the 21st Century

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Yes, I know, I know. The application of the Man of Lawlessness is to the emergence of the clergy class in the early centuries. That point was repeated in the discussion of Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians at the midweek meetings.

But is there anyone other than me that thinks a modern application would be more to the emergence of a modern-day atheist class, today’s apostasy, that turns upon the theocratic organization under the guise of “protecting people” from its “mind-control?”

2 Thessalonians 2:3. Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 

4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things?

6 And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 

7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 

8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 

9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 

10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 

11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 

12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

Verse 4 fits an atheistic Man better than it does a clerical Man. Also verses 9 and 10–with the powerful works and wonders being the application of science, which enthralls them to the point that they forget all about God.

It certainly fits better with the line of Paul from the next chapter: 

Finally, brothers, carry on prayer for us, that the word of Jehovah may keep spreading rapidly and being glorified, just as it is with you,  and that we may be rescued from harmful and wicked men, for faith is not a possession of all people. 

It is not those with faith—even a skewed faith that might be ascribed to a clergy class—that most seek to further the “cult” meme today. It is those without faith.

it is all spot-on to identify the Man of Lawlessness with the emerging clergy class in the first century, with all the infusions of Babylonian and Greek philosophies that it embraced and spread. But today that Man is much weakened. He is casually respected as long as he stays in his place, but his place is much reduced. In the old days his place was anywhere he wanted it to be. He limps along trying to insist that he is relevant, and more and more people doubt that is the case.

The verses of 2nd Thessalonians remind me more today of an atheistic Man than of a religious Man.

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They, the men of lawlessness,  have ALWAYS been atheists ... flying false flags, because people will salute these false flags, and pledge allegiance to these false flags, and slave for these false flags, and contribute money, real estate and assets of every description, and march to the cadence of the drummers of these false flags.

That is the nature of all people. 

Nothing new.

But basically, these men of lawlessness have ALWAYS been atheists.

They are men of lawlesness BECAUSE they put their  own warped "theology", policies, and practices before those of God's.

Consummate, skilled con men who know that to pick pockets, the marks have to be given something of value to sustain them, and keep the illusion of beneficence alive.

That is not how it starts .... but that is how it ALWAYS ends up.

The catalyst is lots of free money.

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 

What is the "temple of God"?  

"sits" -  "to make, to sit down, to set, appoint, to confer a kingdom on one"

Something/someone is exalting itself over the temple of God.  If you know what the temple of God is, then you can determine the identity of the man of lawlessness.  

 

 

 

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 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.

This has to be the GB of JW Org. They have exalted themselves above every other human on this earth. Above all of the true Anointed. Even to a point above Jesus Christ. 

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3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The application of the Man of Lawlessness is to the emergence of the clergy class in the early centuries.

 

17 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

This has to be the GB of JW Org.

Thank you John.  Even more so, it is the GB's personal "clergy", that replaces God's anointed priests.  Matt 24:48-51

19 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Even to a point above Jesus Christ. 

 

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

[@john butler, actually] this has to be the GB of JW Org.

No. The apostates back then were the ones who brought in the immortal soul teaching, as well as the Trinity. The governing arrangement then, as now, stayed true to scripture.

Besides your statement the end is a long long ways off, have you now come to embrace the Trinity and hellfire for the miscreants?

Witness, too, cheered this statement. Is she also a Trinitarian and hellfire advocate?

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25 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

No. The apostates back then were the ones who brought in the immortal soul teaching, as well as the Trinity. The governing arrangement then, as now, stayed true to scripture.

Besides your statement the end is a long long ways off, have you now come to embrace the Trinity and hellfire for the miscreants?

Witness, too, cheered this statement. Is she also a Trinitarian and hellfire advocate?

Does everyone who leaves the WT become Trinitarians and hellfire advocates?  Speaking of hellfire, JWs do not believe this, yet on the same footing,  believe God will destroy mankind (man, woman and child) with a descriptive, well-illustrated, "hellfire" at the culmination of Armageddon.  This appears to be an "apostate" teaching.  Jer 19:5  Apostate teachings are "lawlessness", as well as all discarded teachings of JWs which reflect lawlessness against Christ's teachings.  John 15:16

 

 

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5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

2 Thessalonians 2:3. Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 

You began at verse 3.  Before this, the NWT says,

 However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you  not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.

Here, the translators took the liberty of changing the coming presence of “our Lord Jesus Christ” to the “day of Jehovah”. 

“Now we beg you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to him,

that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as [if it were] by us, as that the day of the Lord is present. (Darby)

“This day began in 1914 when Jesus was installed as King of God’s Kingdom. And it will continue right through to the end of the Thousand Year Reign, when Christ will ‘hand over the kingdom to his God and Father.’ (

    Hello guest!
) Faithful Christians have looked forward to the Lord’s day for many centuries. Now, it is finally here!  Wt 88/10/15  pp. 10-15

….”either by an inspired statement or a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us”…

If the letter appeared to be from true anointed ones, but really is not, then it comes from the pen of false “christs” – fallen anointed leaders, who have “gathered together”, the anointed to hear and be stumbled by, their false claim.

Matt 24:24; Rev 13:11,14-18,7 

This is part of the sign of the "man of lawlessness".  Today, the anointed (TEMPLE ) submit to a "Gentile" rule - elder body - supplanted over them.  2 Thess 2:4; Rev 11:1,2  (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22)

 

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Witness said:

This is part of the sign of the "man of lawlessness".  Today, the anointed (TEMPLE ) submit to a "Gentile" rule - elder body - supplanted over them.  2 Thess 2:4; Rev 11:1,2  (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22)

Would you please give it a rest, lady?

The purpose of my thread was not so that you would adapt it, as you adapt so many threads here, to once again advance your pet peeve that you are the good anointed, they are the bad ones, and beat it into the ground.

The purpose was to see if the Man of Lawlessness can be associated with the new and very anti-Witness (and others) wave of atheism, in view of the verses that I highlighted: 2 Thess 2: 4, 9-10, as well as Paul’s observation of the next chapter that “faith is not a possession of all people.”

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Quote TTH. Besides your statement the end is a long long ways off, have you now come to embrace the Trinity and hellfire for the miscreants?

Well this is sooo funny too. Someone on my FB Ex-JW page has today asked me the same questions ? 

Is this normal JW training then ? To try to insult people by asking such stupid questions.

Do you have nothing better to offer Tom ? How about TRUTH ? Oh of course the JW Org knows nothing about that does it ? 

 

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11 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

have you now come to embrace the Trinity and hellfire for the miscreants?

Well this is sooo funny too. Someone on my FB Ex-JW page has today asked me the same questions ? 

Is this normal JW training then ? To try to insult people by asking such stupid questions.

How about TRUTH ? Oh of course the JW Org knows nothing about that does it ? 

Just piping in here. You might think it's an insulting question, but who taught you the TRUTH about the Trinity and hellfire? I sure know it wasn't any of Christendom's religions....

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7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Verse 4 fits an atheistic Man better than it does a clerical Man.

 

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.

he sits down in the temple of God

TTH, in what Temple of God, and where is this Temple of God, where your Atheistic Man siting? 

I would assume how Paul was talking about Christ Church as Temple?! Or you have another perspective?

6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

But basically, these men of lawlessness have ALWAYS been atheists.

If we take this thought as new way of thinking, then we can say that one Class of man existing in WT Society (because JW people believe how this Organization is God's Temple on Earth) that acting as god , showing himself to be a god, and governing over God's people.

So, this fits well in your idea of Atheistic Man who negate any divinity to any other gods, but consider themselves as god. In final result they are atheistic, as you suggest, because atheism in their own eyes/mind, annuls the existence of any other god - in fact reverses the existence of any other god on them alone to be god.

But term Atheistic, in lexical meaning, refers to person who not believe in existence of god as supreme being. By this general, and acceptable meaning of word "atheist", this idea of yours Atheistic man who sits in Temple, will be of short living. Maybe, you will find another name or substitution name for Man of Lawlessness. :)) 

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8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Would you please give it a rest, lady?

The purpose of my thread was not so that you would adapt it, as you adapt so many threads here, to once again advance your pet peeve that you are the good anointed, they are the bad ones, and beat it into the ground.

The purpose was to see if the Man of Lawlessness can be associated with the new and very anti-Witness (and others) wave of atheism, in view of the verses that I highlighted: 2 Thess 2: 4, 9-10, as well as Paul’s observation of the next chapter that “faith is not a possession of all people.”

You were proposing a theory without knowing the facts; the primary one being the definition of God's Temple.  Tell you what, the next time I feel obligated to comment on a post you may start or address one of your comments, I won't address you directly, but will say something like "TTH said,....."  Oh, and I'll try to remember to add, "I believe it is this way."  I may forget; I am reaching 63 years.  

"good anointed"   If you were at the door in your preaching work, and you engaged in a conversation about the trinity, would you feel you were a "good JW" by presenting them with truth from the Bible?    Perhaps you would, but you knew there were pertinent scriptures to present, and felt the need to show the person where he erred.    I have no feeling of being "good", but anxious about doing God's will properly, by speaking truth.  When Christ judges each one of us, then we will know who is "good".   

"In the same way, when you have done all that you were commanded, you should say, ‘We are worthless servants; we’ve only done our duty.’”  Luke 17:10

You might want to check on the GB though.  They are re-emphasizing they will soon be going to "heaven", leaving all of you behind with the elders.  Notice, only they will be going.  They must be good anointed ones  The rest of the anointed...well, the GB could care less.  

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I remember seeing on the news years ago some minority protest group complaining "Washington never pays any attention to US!"

My immediate thought was "I wish Washington would not pay any attention to ME!"

If the GB all go to heaven, perhaps God will have them counting clouds, or something.

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6 hours ago, Witness said:

They are re-emphasizing they will soon be going to "heaven", leaving all of you behind with the elders. 

I guess that Legal Department with whole Team/s of Lawyers will stay on Earth to support elders :))))

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17 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

TTH, in what Temple of God, and where is this Temple of God, where your Atheistic Man siting? 

No need to get too technical here. It is enough for the phrase to stand for one’s guiding focus on life, as the Temple was for Jews.

The aggravation I face is that I only have to breathe an expression like “Temple of God” and Witness reliably jumps in with:

10 hours ago, Witness said:

You were proposing a theory without knowing the facts; the primary one being the definition of God's Temple.  

and this is generally followed by pages and pages of diatribe which always come down to her same regular conclusion:  that she represents a truer anointed than the ones that Jehovah’s Witnesses focus upon. Been there, done that (1000 times) I just didn’t want to go there yet again.

17 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

this fits well in your idea of Atheistic Man who negate any divinity to any other gods, but consider themselves as god. In final result they are atheistic, as you suggest, because atheism in their own eyes/mind, annuls the existence of any other god - in fact reverses the existence of any other god on them alone to be god.

Yeah. That’s pretty much the point I was making. Again, no need to get too technical here.

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On 7/19/2019 at 1:14 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

the emergence of a modern-day atheist class, today’s apostasy, that turns upon the theocratic organization under the guise of “protecting people” from its “mind-control?”

I see your point Tom, but I incline more to the view that the modern day "atheist class" is more a result of the activity of the same old "man of lawlessness" that appeared over the 1st-3rd centuries. This class is just an inevitable expression of the "lovers of self" characteristic, spawned by the modern day reaction to apostate religion, particularly (but not exclusively) in Christendom.  I wouldn't honour it with the status even of "man of lawlessness".

The application of the term "man of lawlessness" to Christendom's clergy, as you have described that we make, is quite sufficient for me. Jesus warned of the weeds sown in with the wheat in secret, and a subsequent revelation of their activity and presence in the last days. Matt.13:36-43. Also Paul and Peter warned about their springing from within the congregation, from among those entrusted with the care of the flock. Acts 20:29-30;  2Pet.2:1-3. Paul's reference to a restraint that would get "out of the way", (2Thess.2:7), fits well with the notion of the passing in death of the original apostles.The state of affairs during the time of the last remaining one, John substantiates this development both in the Revelation report by the head of the congregation (Rev. Chap.2-3), and in his letter (1John 2:18-19). 

The current pusilanimous state of the clergy of Christendom in many (not all) parts of the world is no indicator of the need for an emergence of a "new" man of lawlessness. The effects on society of the degraded belief system, practices, and results on laity of the apostate parasitic fungus known as "Christendom's clergy class" are well described by Paul at 2Tim 3:1-7 as a sign of the "last days". This is clear both historically and currently to all who care and, albeit without spiritual significance, equally to those who do not. The power of the clergy is broken, the" man of lawlessness" has been revealed, and much to "his" chagrin, it is true Christians, now known as Jehovah's Witnesses, that have been instrumental in setting in motion this exposure and subsequent withering of power, particularly since 1914CE. (Comp. 2Thess.2:8). But we cannot overlook the fact that the now defunct and exposed clergy class still rears its ugly sting to inflict vindictive damage on true servants of God if possible (See the Russian affair). The foul scorpion has been trampled, but is not yet dead!

The chorus of wailing accompanying your suggestions on this forum reminds me of the "goat songs" of ancient Greece, and I suppose are a rather fitting accompaniment to the inevitable demise of this apostate, self-promotIng demigod of Christendom's clergy in the tradition of the culture "he" so greatly admired.

As for the "temple" reference in v4, this fits well with the application to a false Christian congregation  in view of the illustration of the true anointed Christian congregation as a "temple" Eph.2:20-22. Rather like the Pharisees and scribes who sat themselves in the "seat of Moses"(Matt.23:2), the apostate clergy of Christendom are a counterfeit light to the world.

In my opinion, of course. :)

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Among every pocket of society, of man, no matter the race and or sex, background ,etc there are those who willfully sin, those who willfully lie, those who deceive and spread forth deception and a list of other things. Such ones hide among good hard working folk, and these same good folk become pawns and or victim, be it man, woman or child, they are all targets of the wicked ones of lawlessness. And even among God's people, there are those who proclaim they reside in the Temple of God, but preaches another doctrine to befit emotion, to deceive and a list of other things, cherry picking and deviating from God's Word, his Order, his Truth.

All such ones they will be found out and they will pay when they are before the white thrown of God.

  • Numbers 32:23 - But if you will not do so, behold, you have sinned against the Lord, and be sure your sin will find you out.

As Christians, true and faithful, who take up the New Covenant that came forth by means of Jesus, to take his command concerning the commission and what promises await us as God's people, it is our job to proclaim the gospel of the Christ and the news itself to the people, and with this information proclaimed to them, by means of their free will, it is for them to decided to on God's side or on the side of lawlessness.

As is said by many of us - The truth has been given, do what you will with it.

Because at the end of the day, God places only 2 things before each and everyone one of us.

Life and Death

As to the chose, it is up to the person.

All man is imperfect, and among us there are those who commit brazen and disgusting acts, violence acts, deceptive, etc. But at the same time, there are those out there with good intent, some although misguided, they are good folk who needs the message of which Jesus commanded us to proclaim by means of the Commission.

That being said, you give a tool, a hammer, to a good man so he can build a house, this same tool you give to a bad man he will threaten and kill with it. The hammer is merely a tool, but the intent of man, be it good or bad is visible, and it shows just how far today's society actually is, in a sense, a literal good vs. evil scenario, hero vs. villain sense.

A man who sins or teachings falsey out of willfulness, will only have this to hear from our Lord Jesus,

  • Matthew 7:23 -  And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

The Kingdom of God is not for those who willfully go over and or is against God's Law or his Christ.

 

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