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Jack Ryan

The French Speaking Baptist Church of Stratford is now located in the former Jehovah's Witnesses Kingdom Hall at 494 Milford Point Road.

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8 hours ago, Witness said:

If a building is called “God’s House” would it be considered holy?

There are legitimate concerns that someone can misunderstand, or concerns that many people tend to walk by sight, not by faith. But the expression has been common for years, both inside and outside the Witnesses, that when you approach a house of worship, it becomes a "house of God." I don't believe for a minute that the average JW feels any reverence towards the bricks and mortar of a building. There is sometimes a natural feeling of nostalgia or sentimentality over a place or object that brings back a lot of good memories. So I heard about many Bethelites in Brooklyn who felt really bad about leaving their historical New York buildings. But did any of them actually think that there was something about the physical aspects of the buildings that made them somehow more spiritual? I think that even the brothers who used to give talks about "dedicating" a place "from now until the new world" were probably seeing an opportunity to emphasize the closeness of the end, and the stability and growth of the organization. Even if they perhaps considered the assumption that Jehovah might even protect these buildings as a means of protecting his people, they would definitely have not claimed or felt that there were any such guarantees.

Earlier this month, I was reading a diary of a woman in the early 19th century, 1830's, who takes religion very seriously, even taking her children to up to three different church buildings on a Sunday. It sounds like she was Episcopalian, but attended the Episcopalian, the Methodist and the Baptist sermons and perhaps even their Sunday schools, too, if she could manage it in the day's schedule. She complains about some of the sermons and lessons, and she loves some of the others. But in each case, in each different building, she seems to identity all of them as "the house of God." She even reminds her child that Moses took off his shoes before entering holy ground, so he must remember to take off his hat. In spite of the words, "house of God" I'm sure this woman didn't consider anything special about the actual building. Sometimes when one of the preachers was called away, the preacher from one of the other churches would preach as a substitute, or they would share buildings in an emergency. People can understand the gist of the idea without taking everything so literally.

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10 hours ago, Outta Here said:

The dedication of a building for a particular purpose is really an act of the users, making that dedication for the time that they find that building suitable for that particular purpose.

This is good explanation :)))))  Than i have suggestion.

Ceremony of "dedication" building to God after Construction team  had finished job have to be done again but in reversible meaning.  After real estate agent made new contract, Congregants will be gathered  in KH for the last time "TO UNDEDICATE" buillding, bricks, roof, grass etc, especially if new buyer is someone from false religion church.  It would not be a good thing to remain even the smallest part of God’s blessing to a new owner.     :))))

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2 hours ago, Anna said:

Everything that is good belongs to God.

What is "good" for  a man, woman ? :))

To be without any problem, doubt, etc? To have all we want and consider as "good" in our opinion

Sometimes, to be in trouble, doubt, hard time can be considered as "good" for individual if he learn something and become better person. 

By this "bad" is also "good" and belongs to God, too  :)) As in Job experience. Only after sufferings he learn something "good" he didn't know before and perhaps he would never knew without suffer. What we shall say, is suffer good or bad?

In other hand, suffer is "good" only in limited way, and not in everything people have to face. Because, in cases of child molestation for example, as in many others evil things,  this sort of thinking, reasoning would be very strange.  

When people, religious, put theologically, answering the question; Why does God allow suffering? Answers are these from JWorg: 

First, he has not stopped Satan and those who side with him from trying to prove that they are right. Allowing time to pass has thus been necessary. In the thousands of years of human history, mankind has been able to try every form of self-rule, or human government. Mankind has made some advances in science and other fields, but injustice, poverty, crime, and war have grown ever worse. Human rule has now been shown to be a failure.

Second, Jehovah has not helped Satan to rule this world. If God were to prevent horrible crimes, for instance, would he not, in effect, be supporting the case of the rebels? Would God not be making people think that perhaps humans can govern themselves without disastrous results? If Jehovah were to act in that way, he would become party to a lie. However, “it is impossible for God to lie.”—Hebrews 6:18.

It is time to ask: If Main question, according to WT publication, is issue of Power and Governing over people, than "proving" who is right and who is wrong have to be settled in sort of Court or Congress, Senate, to be said in such terminology, and not on roads and hills, etc. 

Also, for second part of explanation. Preventing crimes is not prove of supporting those who doing crimes. Contrary, by active involving in situation you show your standpoint and position, are you for "good" or "bad", especially if you are in possibility to see  human hearts and motives and have all wisdom and power. 

 

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

This is good explanation :)))))  Than i have suggestion.

Ceremony of "dedication" building to God after Construction team  had finished job have to be done again but in reversible meaning.  After real estate agent made new contract, Congregants will be gathered  in KH for the last time "TO UNDEDICATE" buillding, bricks, roof, grass etc, especially if new buyer is someone from false religion church.  It would not be a good thing to remain even the smallest part of God’s blessing to a new owner.     :))))

I agree.

In the circa 1968 movie "Alice's Restaurant" Arlo Guthrie, a Hippie, goes to Stockbridge, Massachusetts to visit some old friends, and they have bought an old large church, possibly Presbyterian, and are going to turn it in to a free love and sex Hippie Commune, and the scene opens with a high angle shot of the inside of the church showing perhaps ten old congregants, and two  Presbyterian Clergy UN-DEDICATING the church and property in a ceremony, with the new owners, Alice and Ray, standing at the outside of the church, waiting for the un-consecration...

The movie also accurately represents the hippie movement in the United States during the time of the Vietnam War, and the movie was created to follow the real life experiences of Arlo Guthrie exactly as stated in his guitar 18 minute riff by the same name "Alice's Restaurant" (Alice's Restaurant Massacre).

The entire one hour and 51 minute movie is available on Youtube.  You may not be able to get it in your country, so I downloaded it, and pasted it HERE.  It's 400 MB, and this site says it has a 500 MB limit for uploads.

The part about the church un-consecration starts at 15:30  minutes.

 

1969... Alice's Restaurant.mp4

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9 hours ago, Anna said:

Everything that is good belongs to God.

Everything that man considers good, or what God considers good?

"Do not love the world or anything that belongs to the world. If you love the world, you do not love the Father. 16 Everything that belongs to the worldwhat the sinful self desires, what people see and want, and everything in this world that people are so proud ofnone of this comes from the Father; it all comes from the world. 17 The world and everything in it that people desire is passing away; but those who do the will of God live forever."  1 John 2:15-17

“Stop storing up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and rust destroy and thieves break in and steal. 20 Instead, store up treasures for yourselves in heaven, where moths and rust don’t destroy and thieves don’t break in and steal. 21 Your heart will be where your treasure is."  Matt 6:19-21

"These people have exchanged God’s truth for a lie. So they have become ungodly and serve what is created rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen!"  Rom 1:25

The early temple was approved by God as the place to worship.  Since the temple is now the Body of Christ, there is no other approved earthly place of worship, according to GOD, since Christ has said we worship in spirit and truth.  John 4:24  His Temple, house of "worship" is Zion, built with "living stones".  1 Pet 2:5,9    

You are built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Christ Jesus himself is the cornerstone. 21 In him all the parts of the building fit together and grow into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 Through him you, also, are being built in the Spirit together with others into a place where God lives.  Eph 2:20-22

Scripture refers to the faithful sealed anointed as "trees".  Matt 7:18; Ezek 47:12; Rev 11:4; 22:2 In the organization, these "trees" and the spirit God has poured into their heart, are replaced with desires of men to build their own "temples" - housed with their own choice of priests.  Dan 8:11

"What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”  2 Cor 6:16

“The glory of Lebanon will come to you,
    the juniper, the fir and the cypress together,
to adorn my sanctuary;
    and I will glorify the place for my feet.
(Isa 66:1,2; Ps 132:7-9)
14 The children of your oppressors will come bowing before you; (Rev 3:9)
    all who despise you will bow down at your feet
and will call you the City of the Lord,
    Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

15 “Although you have been forsaken and hated,
    with no one traveling through,
I will make you the everlasting pride
    and the joy of all generations."  Isa 60:13-15

There is no difference in what the organization has done in building its empire, than any other religious entity that dedicates, consecrates buildings to God; such as the Catholic Church, or the Mormons and their temples, Islam and its mosques.    Those are considered "good".  In your organization, you house the "good" - the true Temple of God, which has been rejected for the same treasures the world has.  Hag 1:4; Dan 7:21; 8:11,23-25; Rev 13:7,10

 

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I would imagine Brother Russell would have appreciated your stance on consecrated ground. Does that mean we should revere all churches as the Holy of Hollies places of God?

If false religion is not speaking in accordance to Jesus instructions, what Holy does that place hold. When Matthew spoke of an incident about Jesus in 21:12-13, it is clear Jesus meant that a house of God would not be treated as a place of business. It would be used as a dedication for prayer. Had Jesus thought the ground he walked on was consecrated ground, he would have made it a point that only the line of the royal priesthood could enter such a place and those selling inside would have “defiled” the house of God and would be, deserving of death.

The same circumstances that is used for the inference of the Holy land. Millions have died to retain that land. It holds three religious beliefs in modern time. Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. If that land is so sacred, why is there still bloodshed in its footsteps?

A place dedicated for such a gathering is called a house of prayer. Any building can be christened for such a purpose.

Scripture does not reveal a brick and mortar building as the “church” of Christ. That church is the body of Christ. Its members are temples (Bricks) and the mortar is “God’s Holy spirit” keeping those bricks together.

It is unconscionable to think ex-witnesses have influenced regular witnesses to such a degree that it has a profound impact as to think otherwise with Bible Truth.

It’s disheartening to see Christian maturity set aside for an inconstant debate.

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Money and Place for worship.

What is connection in this two opposite things? What was purpose for money boxes in Jerusalem Temple?

What is origin and purpose of "treasury" from Jew ancient times to Jerusalem in Jesus' time? 

Before money (coins and later paper) came to be meaning for pay, people giving material things as animals, gold, grain, wine, oil and similar valuable things as Offering to God (for house of JHVH -  "All the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron are sacred to the LORD and must go into his treasury.” "Then they burned the whole city and everything in it, but they put the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron into the treasury of the LORD’s house.- Joshua 6. And as support or payment for priests. Also as support for God's wars in Israel nation. For building and repairing house for God and also for house for King. For the maintenance of the temple and its ministry. 

What is purpose of money box that was in possession of Jesus and The 12? For Temple, for some Building where they gathered together? For ministry service, preaching service ....? Who came to idea to carry money box and collecting money and for what purpose? It is something about "the poor" in John 12, but comment made by writer explaining how Judas was thief, in fact. 

Who are "thief" today in WT Society and in JW org? Who holds, carry "money box" in Organization and for what reason? 

:)) We must understand something. Where is Money, there is chaos and mess. Money corrupts people.

 

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What is purpose of money box that was in possession of Jesus and The 12? For Temple, for some Building where they gathered together? For ministry service, preaching service ....? Who came to idea to carry money box and collecting money and for what purpose? It is something about "the poor" in John 12, but comment made by writer explaining how Judas was thief, in fact. 

Who are "thief" today in WT Society and in JW org? Who holds, carry "money box" in Organization and for what reason? 

I hope you understand the difference when holding a business in the temple. Were those money boxes circulated as a business? What would donations be in your eyes?

Does the Org use donated money to receive luxury items like planes, trains, boats? Do those donations support priest income and a home for that priest?

Some witnesses consider the Org headquarter as lavish. Should volunteers be housed in the field? Should the Org spend more in room and board paid to other benefactors because “bad” witnesses want to decide how the Org should, run?

Does the GB live in lavish mansions? Do those donations go to a 10 million dollar home like “Joel Olsteen” received, and have children sent to a good college with that donated money.

There are many ways those in opposition look at things to enhance a fruitless debate.

Joel Olsteens car

Featured snippet from the web

Joel Osteen - is an American televangelist based in Houston. He likes luxury car and has in his car collection this cars: Ferrari 458 Italia, Porsche 911, Mercedes G-class

 

It is clear what you are willing to accept is not the truth.

 

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7 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

I would imagine Brother Russell would have appreciated your stance on consecrated ground. Does that mean we should revere all churches as the Holy of Hollies places of God?

Nope.  I gave the answer to what is "good", according to the Father: 

"you yourselves, as living stones, a spiritual house, are being built to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."

"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his possession, so that you may proclaim the praises of the one who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. "  1 Pet 2:5,9

"Don’t you yourselves know that you are God’s temple and that the Spirit of God lives in you?"  1 Cor 3:16

"built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building, being put together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you are also being built together for God’s dwelling in the Spirit."

"And they sang a new song:

You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slaughtered,
and you purchased people
for God by your blood
from every tribe and language
and people and nation.

You made them a kingdom
and priests to our God,
and they will reign on the earth."  Rev 5:9,10

“The one who conquers I will make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will never go out again. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God—the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God—and my new name."  Rev 3:12

"I did not see a temple in it, because the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it."  Rev 21:22-24

"And what agreement does the temple of God have with idols? For we are the temple of the living God, as God said: I will dwell and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."

On 9/21/2019 at 5:34 AM, Witness said:

In your organization, you house the "good" - the true Temple of God, which has been rejected for the same treasures the world has.  Hag 1:4; Dan 7:21; 8:11,23-25; Rev 13:7,10

The true Temple, the "spiritual house", the "whole building" is God's.  He does not require the dedication of earthly buildings using the world's assets. I hope JWs can let these scriptures sink into the brain and heart:

However, the Most High [the One infinitely exalted above humanity] does not dwell in houses (temple/shrine/sanctuary) made by human hands; as the prophet [Isaiah] says,

49 
Heaven is My throne,
And the earth is the footstool for My feet;
What kind of house (any dwelling place/home/tabernacle/tent) will you build for Me?’ says the Lord,
Or what place is there for My rest?  Acts 7:48-50

"The God who created the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;  nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, because it is He who gives to all [people] life and breath and all things."  Acts 17:24,25

Does God need buildings dedicated to Him?  No.  Does He want buildings dedicated to Him? No.  If men in their arrogance decide to dedicate their building accomplishment to God, He won't dwell in them anyway.  His Spirit will not be found in a building, because men's ideals and accomplishments transgress His word.  
 

 

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