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Jack Ryan

The French Speaking Baptist Church of Stratford is now located in the former Jehovah's Witnesses Kingdom Hall at 494 Milford Point Road.

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8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Self made conclusion by authors of articles (and pictures) how publications and program are "proper food in proper time"

The theory is that the GB gets weekly feedback from each congregation through the circuit overseer’s report. That’s pretty good feedback, actually, and compares well with even many democratic lands, where the wealthy people in power have virtually no clue as to how their poorer subjects live. More than “no clue,” they often have no interest. That is not true with the GB. If they cannot literally put themselves in the shoes of those that they shepherd, they certainly come a lot closer than any form of human government.

The theory is also that “the people will be taught by Jehovah,” not by a popularity contest of the people.

Besides, each time there is a change in wording or practice, your side is wont to claim that it is done for legal reasons. Thus, your own assumption is that they do listen to “the people.”

The old Russian proverb says: “Ask the children what they want for dinner, and they say: ‘ice cream.’ They get beetroot soup because they live under communist rule, and not a democracy.” What is democracy, H.L. Mencken says, but “the pathetic notion that individual ignorance adds up to collective wisdom?” 

If that is true with one brand of human government, it will certainly be true with a government where “the people will be taught by Jehovah.” You just want them to be taught by yourself and your friends. 

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8 hours ago, Sean Migos said:

Question. Isn't that something that is being presented, by you, when the GB doesn't go around promoting themselves.

It's good to question. And it's a good question: Are they promoting themselves?

A small group of men, a committee of elders, claim themselves to be the very group of men that Jesus had in mind when he gave a parable about how a faithful slave would act, as opposed to how an unfaithful slave would act. 

Did that claim arise from outside this group of men, or did they promote it about themselves? I'm guessing that you already know the answer.

8 hours ago, Sean Migos said:

The reason they are not discreet here is the promotion of something they don't personally claim. 

Do they personally claim to be the only currently living persons that Jesus was talking about when he spoke of the one who would prove himself to be "the faithful and discreet slave"? Is this not the same as saying "we are faithful" and "we are discreet/wise" and "we are that selected/appointed slave that Jesus was referring to?"

*** ws17 February p. 21,22 Who Is Leading God’s People Today? ***
And how can we “remember those who are taking the lead” among us, especially “the faithful and discreet slave”?—Hebrews 13:7; Matthew 24:45.
JESUS LEADS THE GOVERNING BODY

...

In 1919, three years after Brother Russell’s death, Jesus appointed “the faithful and discreet slave.” . . . Even during those early years, a small group of anointed brothers at headquarters in Brooklyn, New York, provided spiritual food to Jesus’ followers. The expression “governing body” began appearing in our publications after 1940. At that time, the governing body was closely connected with directors of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. However, in 1971, it was made clear that the Governing Body was different from the Watch Tower Society, which was responsible for legal matters only. From then on, anointed brothers could become part of the Governing Body without being Society directors. . . .  The July 15, 2013, issue of The Watchtower explained that “the faithful and discreet slave” is a small group of anointed brothers who make up the Governing Body.

*** ws17 February pp. 24-26 Who Is Leading God’s People Today? ***
“WHO REALLY IS THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE?”
12 The Governing Body is neither inspired nor perfect. It can make mistakes when explaining the Bible or directing the organization. . . .  What evidence is there that the Governing Body is the faithful slave? Let us consider the same three things that helped the governing body in the apostles’ time.
13 Holy spirit helps the Governing Body. . . .
14 Angels help the Governing Body. . . .
15 God’s Word guides the Governing Body. . . .
“REMEMBER THOSE WHO ARE TAKING THE LEAD”
16 Read Hebrews 13:7. The Bible says to “remember those who are taking the lead.” One way we can do this is by mentioning the Governing Body in our prayers. . . .17 We can also remember the Governing Body by following its instructions and direction.

This is quite different from saying that the Governing Body strives to be faithful and discreet. That is proper.

*** w18 January p. 19 par. 12 Why Give to the One Who Has Everything? ***
With prayerful consideration, the Governing Body strives to be faithful and discreet with regard to how the organization’s funds are used.

It's slightly different when the same claim is reworded to directly claim that the Governing Body IS faithful and discreet.

*** ws18 January p. 18 par. 12 Why Give to the One Who Has Everything? ***
The Governing Body is faithful and discreet in the way the contributions are used.

But at least that is an understandable statement in the context of an article requesting that we give money and resources for various uses to further the preaching work worldwide, etc.

But it is another thing altogether to claim that they (a handful of men) are the only "faithful and discreet slave" on earth today, that Jesus appointed as a small class in 1919, and that they must be obeyed, and that they are the only source of true spiritual food.

*** w18 April p. 31 par. 1 Questions From Readers ***
Jehovah has entrusted the responsibility of providing spiritual food to “the faithful and discreet slave” alone.

*** ws11 7/15 p. 25 par. 11 Have You Entered Into God’s Rest? ***
What do you do when the faithful and discreet slave tells you to try a way of preaching that you never tried before? Do you obey . . . ?

*** ws11 7/15 p. 24 Have You Entered Into God’s Rest? ***
We need to obey the faithful and discreet slave to have Jehovah’s approval 

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8 hours ago, Sean Migos said:

How would you separate that truth from fiction, here?

So it's pretty easy to separate truth from fiction just by accepting what the Governing Body has claimed about themselves in print. We don't have to make anything up. If they claim a certain thing about themselves, they put it in print, and there is no problem separating truth from fiction, here.

But this does not mean that we shouldn't "obey" them. They are elders, they are desirous of a fine work. We don't obey them because they have claimed to be prophesied about in a parable that Jesus made, however. We "obey" their faithful lead, as we contemplate how their conduct turns out. We obey by imitating their faithful conduct.

(Hebrews 13:7) . . .Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out, imitate their faith.

If we are humble, we will submit to the instruction given by those who are faithful and discreet. This should be true of all elders, who are all faithful stewards.

(2 Thessalonians 3:9) . . .Not that we do not have authority, but we wanted to offer ourselves as an example for you to imitate.

1 Peter makes it clear, that to a certain extent being a faithful steward applies not just the elders, but also to every one of us:

(1 Peter 4:10, 11) . . .To the extent that each one has received a gift, use it in ministering to one another as fine stewards of God’s undeserved kindness that is expressed in various ways. 11 If anyone speaks, let him do so as speaking pronouncements from God; if anyone ministers, let him do so as depending on the strength that God supplies;. . .

But, none of us, who is really a faithful and discreet steward, will ever recommend ourselves as someone who is approved, and who must therefore be obeyed. We obey in the sense of following faithful examples and Christian instruction.

(2 Corinthians 10:18) 18 For it is not the one who recommends himself who is approved, but the one whom Jehovah recommends.

 

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43 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The theory is that the GB gets weekly feedback from each congregation through the circuit overseer’s report.

Circuit overseers gets reports from elders, in theory. Elders gets information from congregants, in theory. Congregants are not ready to talk against organizational preparations and doctrines, in theory.

Well, does this "feedback" is based on assumptions, personal impressions and conclusions or even gossips?

43 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The old Russian proverb says: “Ask the children what they want for dinner, and they say: ‘ice cream.’ They get beetroot soup because they live under communist rule, and not a democracy.”

If proverb is so old, i doubt that children of those time had knowledge what the ice cream is :)))))

43 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You just want them to be taught by yourself and your friends

You give me more importance than i really have. :))

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In the "Truth" ONLY the GB are supposed to have any, and effort to find out anything of importance that is NOT on the agenda can get you called into the famous and dreaded "little back room, 101" for some friendly interrogation of why do you want to know ... and possible charges of disrupting the peace of the Congregation, for which you can be disfellowshipped.

There is a great and pervasive chill in the "Truth", now where people are afraid to speak about anything, for fear that they may use unapproved words, in unapproved phrases, to tip of the "hall monitors" that they may not be orgasmically happy about everything that is being said, and is going on.

I think JW Insider made an important point recently when he quoted the scripture about Elders (and the GB, presumably) should be free from accusation.

It's a REQUIREMENT ... not an optional extra.

To be free from accusation means you have to CHANGE ... not double-down and prepare for a siege.

"Make sure of all things ... hold fast to what is fine"

It's like eating fish ... it's best to throw the head, bones, and scales away ... but if you do it here, you become an apostate.

... and everyone know we live under that sword .... held up by a small, tenuous thread.

We are NOT free from legitimate accusation.

 

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The theory is that the GB gets weekly feedback from each congregation through the circuit overseer’s report. That’s pretty good feedback, actually, and compares well with even many democratic lands, where the wealthy people in power have virtually no clue as to how their poorer subjects live.

This is true. My uncle was retired from Circuit work due to his age. (And he just visited two weeks ago.) His reports for many years were only statistical, as he was expected to handle locally any "disciplinary/doctrinal/"political"/spiritual/judicial/appeal" matters, based on his training and good deal of trust. A big part of his week was organizing visits to the inactive list to get them reporting (and attending) again, and then dealing with issues among the elders themselves.  District overseers would ask them periodically what they had found most helpful in bringing up the numbers, and we can assume that many of those ideas were fed back to the Service Department. All assignments about what to talk about, and even many "local needs" still came from the top down. In the last few years before retiring, however, he said that there was much more communication about what he felt the congregations needed spiritually, for morale, for encouragement.

Also, they are encouraged to write into the Service Department for answers to difficult questions when in previous years they were expected to handle more issues on their own.

The article I quoted from above gives the impression that this is mostly a one-way, top down direction from the GB, but this doesn't tell the whole story:

*** ws17 February p. 26 par. 17 Who Is Leading God’s People Today? ***
We can also remember the Governing Body by following its instructions and direction. The Governing Body gives us direction through our publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions. It also appoints circuit overseers, who then appoint elders. By carefully following the directions given to them, the circuit overseers and the elders show that they remember the Governing Body.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The theory is also that “the people will be taught by Jehovah,” not by a popularity contest of the people.

I expect that you were thinking of this same article, just quoted from:

*** ws17 February p. 25 par. 15 Who Is Leading God’s People Today? ***
Consider what happened in 1973. The June 1 issue of The Watchtower asked whether “persons who have not broken their addiction to tobacco qualify for baptism.” The answer it gave to that question was based on Bible principles, and it was no! The Watchtower cited several scriptures and explained why a person who will not stop smoking should be disfellowshipped. (1 Corinthians 5:7; 2 Corinthians 7:1) It said that this strict standard does not come from humans but comes “from God, who expresses himself through his written Word.” No other religious organization has been willing to rely so completely on God’s Word even when doing so may be very difficult for some of its members. A recent book on religion in the United States says: “Christian leaders have regularly revised their teachings to match the beliefs and opinions gaining support among their members and in the larger society.” The Governing Body, however, is not guided by what most people like.

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13 hours ago, Sean Migos said:

Question. Is that JW only for Jehovah’s witnesses to discuss uplifting spiritual matters or is it the same as it is here where witnesses will come together to criticize doctrine, policy, and the governing body? I don’t want to be part of any unhelpful discussion if I join.

Read the club guidelines and that might give you an idea. It is up to you what you want to discuss, and the tone you want to set, especially when you create your own topic. No one is going to make you be part of any discussion, helpful or unhelpful. It is up to you what discussion you join. And the good thing is, if you don't like the club, then there is a button at the top right hand corner which says "leave club" and that will delete your membership.

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5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If proverb is so old, i doubt that children of those time had knowledge what the ice cream is :)))))

If proverb is so new, i doubt that children of those time had knowledge what the communism is :)))))

I threw in “old” to place the proverb in Soviet times, where it belongs.  Surely they knew what ice cream was.

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13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But, none of us, who is really a faithful and discreet steward, will ever recommend ourselves as someone who is approved, and who must therefore be obeyed. We obey in the sense of following faithful examples and Christian instruction.

Thank you for your response. I will continue to hold the Governing Body as seen through the eyes of Jesus, not in reverence but deserving of respect for their hard work and dedication to Jehovah.

I can see the difference with the Holy Spirit that Jehovah lays out for each of us.

1 Corinthians 12:8-10 American Standard Version (ASV)

8 For to one is given through the Spirit the word of wisdom; and to another the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit: 9 to another faith, in the same Spirit; and to another gifts of healings, in the one Spirit; 10 and to another workings of [a]miracles; and to another prophecy; and to another discerning of spirits: to another divers kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues:

While the Governing Body is a servant that feeds Jehovah’s domestic flock, I don’t believe as you stated that Elders receive the same level of the Holy Spirit as they do.

All baptized and dedicated persons receive God’s Holy Spirit. But I just don’t see where it would be, in particular to suggest the inheritance of that spirit is the same.

Do you think that “women” can be elders?

Romans 12:6-8 American Standard Version (ASV)

6 And having gifts differing according to the grace that was given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of our faith; 7 or ministry, let us give ourselves to our ministry; or he that teacheth, to his teaching; 8 or he that exhorteth, to his exhorting: he that giveth, let him do it with [a]liberality; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that showeth mercy, with cheerfulness.

I will agree in one point you made. All baptized witnesses should “obey” those that take the lead in order for Jehovah to see the harmony within the organization.

Hebrews 13:17

17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they watch over your souls as those who must give an account. To this end, allow them to lead with joy and not with grief, for that would be of no advantage to you.

I have no inclination to disrespect God for the choices he makes in man, and whom he chooses to receive God's instructions.

Can I ask? Are you a Jehovah's Witness?

Do you believe, as the Bible students did, to have each congregation run independent of each other?

Given your response, I cannot support that kind of man's logic. I will instead support scripture as divine truth.

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8 hours ago, Anna said:

Read the club guidelines and that might give you an idea. It is up to you what you want to discuss, and the tone you want to set, especially when you create your own topic. No one is going to make you be part of any discussion, helpful or unhelpful. It is up to you what discussion you join. And the good thing is, if you don't like the club, then there is a button at the top right hand corner which says "leave club" and that will delete your membership

Thank you. Given the preview, here. I will stay out of that club. I don't see anything spiritually uplifting if that is the case.

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