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10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

to too much Western European, American, and anti-Communist news outlets are apt to believe almost anything they read that is negative about China. My youngest son reads and speaks quite a lot of Chinese and besides going to college with persons from China, he was also invited to do a half-semester project in Physics in China before he graduated. He often speaks to friends who live in China, because he also reads about the same issues you brought up here.

China is still a poor country, although it has been raising a higher percentage of people out of poverty at a faster rate than any modern country has ever done. (Based on U.S. standards of "poverty.") It is also a huge country with a lot of problems from local petty leaders, and many of their governmental processes are tried through experimentation: trial and error.

One of the funniest claims is that Chinese people supposedly can't speak out against their government. His friends criticize their government constantly, and laugh at the idea that people in Western countries believe that this is not possible without repercussions. It's true that those who attempt to subvert the government and its programs are punished, just as is done in the United States. Try demonstrating in front of a judge, inside a courtroom, or inside the White House, or try threatening a police officer and see what happens here.

I also have much older friends that just came from China and decided not to go back. Younger people are usually blind to injustice as long as they are living it up. 

I also happen to have friends in Africa who is seeing the invasion of Chinese in all industry and rare earth minerals. I also read up about Australia- and they are afraid...... the CCP has changed in the last two years.... and changing fast.

Ask Falun Gong members in China.  As a Chinese you are fine if you just believe in the state, work hard and have a good time.  China is changing rapidly.   South Africans in China are leaving as well as those who belong to western nations..... the CCP are bringing in too many restrictions - on everything.  They even watch your shopping. Buy too much wine and your social points go down.

If you want to believe the wonderful propaganda coming out of China (typical communistic spin) then do so.  Those wonderful young people who tell your son it is now so wonderful in China most probably are afraid to lose their social credit score. ...... because evething is now automatically surveilled in the big cities. If they say anything negative- just a whiff of negativity regarding anything about governance- or a bad face on facial recognition..... and their credit score will go down.  Their freedom will be curbed. It is 1984 big brother becoming a reality...... soon coming to the west once digital currency is rolled out.

I preach in English to Chinese visitors here and I am afraid for them..... because their phones are checked when they come from abroad.

I know you like the Commie system - seen your  comments before when you played down the murders under communism - but there is a threat now that the west will inaugurate the same system once G5 is installed and the UN gets its way.   The UN and EU wants this same surveillance system in the west.

The bible does not warn for nothing that the greatest tribulation ever will be here.  Communistic  system (or the neo-communistic "communalism" is at our doorstep) is known to starve those it wants to anihilate - Read the 3 volumes on Stalins life - not the new propaganda by western commie professors running the post modern philosophy classes at most universities in the west.

The huawei war with China is not just because of them getting wealthier. They have become a threat to the west due to the technology they obtained from the west. 

The propaganda in their schools are all about their hate for the west due to the opium wars and Japan is also in a precarious situation. My friend who just came back from China happened to be a music teacher. 

The CCP wants control of all the wealth on earth...... not the land. Although they are not adverse to take mines, ports and land they need or want.  They have been doing the same with the silk road.

I suggest you go and read up more about the changes in the CCP.  The country was wonderful until about two years ago.

I also saw footage of the concentration camps and also read about the cruel organ harvesting ........ nothing there to commend them. ...... whether it is 10 thousand or one million - it is still terrible to separate parents from children.  Whether it was 20 million or 40 million under stalin - it is millions too many.....

Foreigners in China and high skilled workers do not experience the pain and suffering of the average folk or those who are practicing a religion......

Read Daniel 11 from verse 40. ..... China are almost in a position (together with their ally russia) to put an embargo on the movement of trade on the earth.  They have the ships and the ports. While USA has many ports in Asian seas directly pointed at China...... one will have to wait and see what transpires....... but I put my faith in the prophecies of the bible.   And I see a new imperialism in China and a absolute totalitarian state emerging.


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10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

China has much lower incarceration rates than the United States, not just per capita, but in actual numbers, despite the fact that China's population is so much higher.

While the United States has 707 incarcerated people per 100,000 citizens, for example, China has 124 to 172 per 100,000 people and Iran 284 per 100,000. ......."No other country in the world imprisons its citizens as we do in the United States," Haney says. - October 2014, Vol 45, No. 9 Print version: page 56

source: https://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/10/incarceration

Perhaps Arauna has reminiscence on Cultural Revolution in China under Mao, from 1966 period. 

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8 hours ago, Arauna said:

Foreigners in China and high skilled workers 

I appreciate the concern expressed for Foreigner and the obvious good counsel. I did not “like” that comment itself so as not to draw you into the cabal in his eyes or anyone else’s.

Your advice and demeanor reminded me also of Jesus’ description of the prodigal son’s older brother, the one apparently intended to picture the Pharisees. As such, Jesus could have portrayed him quite negatively, but he did not. He focused only on the positive. The older brother HAD been faithful to his father’s household, and if he had any negative traits (as he must have if he was to picture the Pharisees) Jesus did not mention them.

It is an appeal to that group, and some took him up on it, as later “a great crowd of priests” became obedient to the faith. It offsets other times when the Lord ran them through the wringer, as he did in the 23rd chapter of Matthew, for example.

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The reason the United States has many more prisoners than other countrues is that FREEDOM is allowed for people that have not grown up enough to handle it.

Also ... we count the WHOLE person.

In other countries they count less because of missing hands, and sometimes even missing heads.

You probably don't need to imprison a thief that has had both hands cut off.

And of course, public executions do tend to cut down on the repeat offenders, quite a bit.



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40 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

You probably don't need to imprison a thief that has had both hands cut off. And of course, public executions do tend to cut down on the repeat offenders, quite a bit.

JTR may be Captain America, but he does have a point here.

26 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

....Someone might even make the case that Josef Stalin did as well as could be expected with a large, ignorant, undisciplined peasant nation.

From what I have read he was pretty much that way himself—his excellence was in cunnning. During WWII, his son was captured by the Germans and he was given opportunity to ransom him. He declined the offer and the son died in a concentration camp.

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10 hours ago, Arauna said:

I also happen to have friends in Africa who is seeing the invasion of Chinese in all industry and rare earth minerals. I also read up about Australia- and they are afraid...... the CCP has changed in the last two years.... and changing fast.

Couldn't agree with you more on your assessment.

While it is true that back in the 90s a Chinese citizen could criticize if something was not right when it was placed as a ruling mandate, it doesn’t mean, Chinese citizens had full freedom to express what western nations call freedom of speech, freedom to live a life as they chose or pleased.

China is still a communist nation with limited freedoms. The problem now with China is what Hitler might have thought of after Germany lost WW1, resources.

China not only is targeting Africa but other nations like Australia. While it failed with Australia, and the USA, it is having an imprint in third world nations. Mexico is one of those nations.

 The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) also strengthened its power over the government

Bureaucracy in a major overhaul of central government structure in March. The party oversees a powerful new government body, the National Supervisory Commission, which is empowered to detain incommunicado anyone exercising public authority for up to six months without fair trial procedures in a system called “liuzhi.”


In October, Meng Hongwei, then-president of Interpol, the international police

Organization, and China’s vice minister for Public Security, disappeared upon return

To China and was assumed to be held in “liuzhi.” The CCP also subsumed state bodies in charge of religious, ethnic, and overseas Chinese affairs under a party agency, the United Front Work Department.


Authorities dramatically stepped up repression and systematic abuses against the 13 million Turkic Muslims, including Uyghurs and ethnic Kazakhs, in China’s northwestern Xinjiang region. Authorities have carried out mass arbitrary detention, torture, and mistreatment of some of them in various detention facilities, and increasingly imposed pervasive controls on daily life. New regulations in Tibet now criminalize even traditional forms of social action, including community mediation by religious figures. In Hong Kong, a region promised “a high degree of autonomy” under the Sino-British Joint Declaration, the Chinese and Hong Kong governments hastened their efforts in 2018 to undermine peoples rights to free speech and political participation.


Human rights defenders continue to endure arbitrary detention, imprisonment, and enforced disappearance. The government maintains tight control over the internet, mass media, and academia. Authorities stepped up their persecution of religious communities, including prohibitions on Islam in Xinjiang, suppression of Christians in Henan province, and increasing scrutiny of Hui Muslims in Ningxia.


If China was as free as some people think, we would know what happened to the young protester (Tank Man) in Tiananmen Square on June 4, 1989. This is why “censorship” has gotten worse in recent decades in China.

Therefore, both views can be correct. What is not correct is to think Chinese people can criticize the government of “mainland China” and think there won’t be consequences and retaliation from the government. I believe the word province works. Hong Kong is now a province of China where Chinese people have criticized the government of mainland china. What is happening now because of it?


Also, what Trump is doing to influence the advancement of prophetic time is in line with scripture. William Barr is advocating a more religious stance to bring his kind of “morality” back to US society.

The problem there, it conflicts with the moral and standards of scripture, even though BARR speaks as though it’s done in the name of Christ Jesus as an evangelical.


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6 hours ago, Arauna said:

I also have much older friends that just came from China and decided not to go back.

Yes. This is partly true. My old boss was from the mainland, where his parents still live, but had moved to work in Hong Kong before getting a job in New York. Most of his relatives still live on the mainland, so when he goes back he visits Hong Kong first, then his other relatives. We recently met at a restaurant with a couple other retirees from the same company, and we talked for a couple hours. I ran a few of these same "young people" arguments by him, and it's true that he is very wary of some of the government's business and economic plans, although he admits that they are currently working. He is very anti-communist as many Chinese-born US citizens are.

But the one area he says the US (and West) has all wrong is the Uyghur ("Weeger") situation. He says that you have to read between the lines, or learn how to pick the one CNN report in 10 that gets it right. He is surprised that they allow reports to be completely contradictory (although he listens to an International version of CNN) along with a lot of anti-Chinese media. What's curious is that these "concentration camps" are not "concentration camps," as there is no torture, no forced hard labor, etc.  Although Chinese are definitely behind it, they are actually run mostly by Weegers and for Weegers. One of the big thrusts of the Chinese government is to try to legislate against racism, and there is plenty of racism in China. If a group appears to be very unaccepting of other groups -to the point of using violence- they are supposed to go through training in their own culture and other cultures, too. This does include "indoctrination" in the goals of the government, what we would call classes in civics and citizenship, but he says it is mostly job training, and can even include moving a Weeger family to areas to get them better jobs. China ties the problem of poverty to violent rioting and demonstrations.  Muslims around the world have agreed that this has worked as a method of reducing radicalization and has eliminated terrorism.

Most of China, of course, are Han, although there are several million Weegers, mostly in the Xinjiang province. The first big problem with the Weegers came about after riots that evidently began with rumors of Weegers raping a Han, and other rumors that spread and morphed out of this one. The Han instigated violent riots against the Weegers, and China put a lot of effort into punishing the Han offenders. On the mainland, he says that the Chinese support and defense of the Weegers is a source of anger by racist Chinese. The actual number of Weegers required to go through the training programs are probably in the tens of thousands, he thinks. (The idea of "millions" is a Western invention.) He also mentioned that China has helped Muslims build mosques, not only in China but also in Africa. The Weegers have a vibrant culture in the Xinjiang province that China supports.

By the way, the entire Muslim world does NOT believe the Weeger propaganda. Even when the UN resolution condemning the "Weeger" situation was promoted by the West, it was signed on by only about 22 countries, all white (US, UK, etc) and ZERO Islamic countries signed onto the resolution. The NYT which attempts at least one big anti-China article every week, ended up reporting the Chinese side of the argument in the context of the 22 nation campaign. While generally negative, of course, the article also included the following:

China denied such actions when a United Nations human rights committee questioned the policy last year but later said it was providing vocational training to insulate Xinjiang’s population from what it described as the global scourge of extremism.

To counter international critics, last month China brought Xinjiang’s deputy governor, an ethnic Uighur, to the council, where he asserted that such training is lifting Xinjiang’s people from poverty. The deputy governor, Aierken Tuniyazi, also rejected accusations that the trainees are in detention camps.

“The trainees’ personal dignity and freedom are fully protected,” he said, describing students living in air-conditioned dormitories and dividing their time between learning valuable skills and participating in ethnic dancing, singing or sports.

China has used its economic leverage and diplomatic muscle to support this narrative with some success. Muslim countries have remained silent and have even praised China’s treatment of its Muslims. Cameroon, a beneficiary of Chinese infrastructure spending, devoted a statement in the council last week to praising China’s “big achievement” in Xinjiang.

And last month Vladimir Voronkov, the Russian diplomat heading the United Nations Counter-Terrorism Office, visited Xinjiang and in his end of mission statement made no reference to human rights concerns there, an omission that human rights groups saw as a propaganda gift to Chinese authorities.

What often raises my own suspicions on these topics is a common thread of US hypocrisy. The US and other Western nations have been overreacting to Muslim countries for many years now, because it's good for the military contractors, and the oil industry. (These are often synonymous with the meaning of the expression "American interests," the thing the US is protecting every time the US joins a conflict.) Therefore, the West looks to blame China for something that might sound even worse. The West uses the IMF and World Bank and even so-called Human Rights societies to help push an agenda in countries where the West wants to plunder resources. When the West builds infrastructure in another nation it's mostly to help get those resources out of the country, not to help local workers and local civilians. The US is infamous for promoting a need for certain facilities at such a cost in IMF loans that the country is supposed to default, and then the US then has leverage to gain UN votes, build military bases, take a higher percentage of resources and profits, or completely "own" the country's new leader through a regime change. Therefore, this is what China will be blamed for doing through Western fearmongering.

The pattern is very clear on several such items. The West (especially the US) does something bad, so China must be blamed for something just like it, but worse.

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    • True, however, testing the spirit does not include drawing one's own conclusions outside scripture. I have not found an insistence where the Watchtower has gone beyond what is written. Do they try to simplify certain things, yes they do. That doesn’t mean they are stepping away from the context. Another thing is with the comparison made. The GB are following the true spirit of God like the apostles. Therefore, they have NOT taken the position of the Jerusalem counsel. If you have, then you sit in Moses seat. Matthew 23:2 If the passion is to correct, as God corrected his people, Then I would suspect there is a resemblance to be equal to Christ as the Pope seems to indicate. The GB do not hold themselves in that high regard as to think, they can question God's motives for humanity. I would recommend studying the issue further. There are areas that haven’t been included with many presentations here. Since you claim the Watchtower is misrepresenting an issue that has become an obstacle to your personal faith, then I would make light of JTR and TTH comments about contacting the Watchtower directly. Feeding an assumption only emboldens the God of this world, no one else. Correct. There is only one way to view scripture. Anyone deviating from that is causing personal harm to the spirit of others. It doesn’t matter if those individuals hate the Watchtower, it’s by their own spoken words and actions of clear and concise misinterpretation of scripture, and misapplication of the Watchtower literature where they fail to see the difference. Removing themselves from the context of scripture to argue with the strength of hate and discourse is the sole definition of scripture when Christ clearly stated not to and to stay away from. Those are the dangers when we engage in an open forum. We like to think it is to discuss issues. However, the ever present danger will always be, the influence of the devil. It is one thing to defend the truth, but quite another thing to defend the truth when one’s heart is conflicted. Merely following that conduct disqualifies anyone from stating they are Christian. That is the kind of Christian Jesus spoke of as a danger. The confusion would lie with how the public perceives the Watchtower under the direction of the bible Student association. The word “association” should give anyone, pause to rethink, Russell and Rutherford belonged to the International Bible Student Association. A reason, Rutherford dismissed the edger pyramid scheme straight up. Russell, used it as a comparison, nothing more. Another thing that witnesses should consider, those works were made by not allowing Christendom’s view of scripture. Therefore, Russell essentially started from scratch. There are far more reasons why those dates were accepted. Mainly, by events of that time. Bible Students still believe, the Jewish nation has a pivotal role in the last days. According to Christ everyone became relative in the last days including the Jews. They are not the sole reason for the last days as Christendom exerts. Remember, even the most conservative view which is Bishop Ussher, his calculation referenced 586BC as the 3rd instance of judgment by Nebuchadnezzar. The third, not the first nor the second as historians and scholars claim, but the third. This is why history itself is flawed, since they continue to insist, there were only 2 campaigns against Judea and Jerusalem. Mainly 597-587BC. I will not beat on the bush with this one. I am confident we both know what limitations are imposed and previous actions taken.  
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