JW OPPOSERS GROUPS

[Allen_Smith]

17 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Well, we have two sort of Interpretations here.

First is interpretations on Bible verses ...... and next is interpretations on WT verses. 

Also we have dilemma (you don't have that dilemma :))))).

Hi! Srecko (Lucky)

The first thing you need to consider, is Bible interpretation one thing, and Bible translation another?

Keep that in mind when you ask yourself a very important question. Do you believe Jesus had “faith” the ancient scrolls were well written and represented what his father’s intention was for mankind?

The follow-up question should be why, do you believe the scribes have corrupted the ancient writings to a point it now defers from the time of Jesus and think God would allow his inspired word, be so corrupted that it could not be interpreted and translated by modern linguist. Wouldn't that poison the body of Christ since Jesus is the Christian Church.

Consider the following. If you have a well-rounded rebuttal and reframe from personal speculation and vendetta, I will respond.

1996 Hebrew Bible   Old Testament the History of Its Interpretation, vol. 1 page 20

“Every discipline of research that is of some age has its specific history, without which its identity would not be fully understood. It is, therefore, perceivable that the history of research, as a discipline of its own, in recent years has become an expanding scholarly matter of concern, both in science and in humanities, and not least in the field of biblical studies. It may be maintained that the writing of the history of studies increasingly seems to be regarded as a significant scholarly challenge.

1.       In view of a broader context of the present new History of biblical studies two introductory remarks of a general character may be relevant. First, historiography of research is, methodically, not different from any other kind of historiography, each kind having its distinct character according to its specific object and setting. A critical history of the study and interpretation of the Hebrew Bible / Old Testament through the centuries has definitely a most specific object of its own; at the same time, however, ft. will be but a part of cultural and social history in general as well as of ecclesiastical history and Bible studies in particular (cf. M E I N H O L D; E B E L I N G).

2.       Second, the basic and partly philosophical questions of what 'history' and 'historiography' really might be cannot, for obvious reasons, be discussed as such or at any length on this occasion, and far less so as the opinions concerning these issues among historians and other scholars occupied with historiography are considerably divergent.”

 

Your response will deal with facts. Who is more qualified to interpret and translate God's inspired word. A scholar or a servant of God. Especially a servant that is "faithful" and "chosen" by God. Then ask yourself, is anyone here qualified to honestly answer your two questions?

 

[Matthew9969]

On 10/16/2019 at 7:03 AM, divergenceKO said:

Anna seems to think you were being sarcastic toward JW’s and Not God. What she “fails” to understand is, I wasn’t referring about JW’s but instead concentrated on your own blasphemous words?

 

“Its good food until it becomes rotten, and “Jehovah has to come up with new food”

 

 

God doesn’t need to provide anything to us humans. He does so, so that we can benefit from his spiritual wisdom. God gave up his son as a sacrifice in order for humanity to have a second chance for internal life. How dare you insinuate as well as Anna that it was meant to be sarcastic toward JW’S?

 

How dare you command God that he has to come up with new food? That’s what “has to” is, a command. When, did you become above God to order God to do something. An attack to God’s sovereignty as well.

 

Your blasphemous statement that “Jehovah has to come up with NEW FOOD is a direct attack on God. You have made the, grievous of sins since you attacked God’s Holy Spirit that dispenses that “fine” fruits. IT IS UP TO GOD TO DECIDE IF THAT FRUIT SHOULD BE REVISED FOR THE NEXT GENERATION, NOT YOURS, NOT WITNESS, NOT JWINSIDER, NOT TTH, NOT ANNA, NOT JTR, NOT ANYONE’S BUT HIS ALONE.

 

Anna might want to dismiss your words. She can’t. She doesn’t have the power to forgive such a sin. She, might think so, but she would only be fooling herself.

 

People need to start respecting God more here. As for the governing body. They hold, apply, and obey God’s words more than you. You are a sanctimonious and arrogant man that just lost his soul.

 

This is the kind of Christianity being argued here by opposers? Get behind me Satan. That’s all on you Bub!

 

Anyone on the outside of your cult can clearly see that your governing body are the ones blaspheming Jehovah by claiming they are Him, selling false prophecies in His name, changing/reversing doctrine in His name, killing others in His name. Your governing body has said they are Gods mouthpiece. 

Jehovah is perfection, Jehovah would not give the governing body information one day, then a few years later tell the governing body that that information was false/wrong and had new information. 

Your governing body is calling Jehovah an imperfect being, and you worship them so you are as guilty as your governing body.

My God is a mighty perfect God, not found in a building or a group of men.

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

Bible interpretation

I reffered  on interpretation.

2 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

Who is more qualified to interpret

How you explaining word "qualified" in this matter (what is content, qualification that person should have to be called "qualified")? What should be look like "the qualifications" in your opinion? Name them as list or something like that.

2 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

A scholar or a servant of God.

When you said "servant of God", who is/are servant/s, in your understanding, in this issue? Who you call as such one, who may be "servant of God"? Are there any distinction/levels inside people/group of those who called themselves "servant of God"?

When you tell me more about this, perhaps i will be more able to answer what you ask me. 

...........But i will tell you in this way, for simplest, faster conversation. Interpretations on Bible verses is best to live to Him, because He is The Most Qualified to explain verses (word "interpret" is going to sphere of calculations and speculations. This word (interpret) for me, is reflection of human try, attempt to go into space of unknown, of  something that is almost not possible to understand .... without help.

Well, "interpretations" is just variations of many choice and at the end perhaps not one not have true meaning. It is just perception of reader or listener. Author is only one who knows what he meant when he wrote or told something. Author is that person who can explain true meaning. All other don't know true meaning and they can do exactly this .... "to interpret".    

Even if somebody is self claimed servant or as servant appointed by God (in sense of true appointing), we can't be sure in source of authorization of such individual. Or, to be said in this way. If you are an individual who have real appointment by God as his "servant", only in that case you would be able to detect important part of issue: Is it another individual who claim how he is also "servant of God", true or false "servant". All other is speculation and faith or blind faith.

[JW Insider]

10 hours ago, Witness said:

What you translate as OCD, hate and bitterness, is absolute fear and dread for your spiritual lives. 

For the record I have never heard you say anything here that did not sound sincere. I have never heard a word from you that I would have thought was borne out of hate or even OCD. However, there is a such thing as a "zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge." Of course, I'm sure your knowledge of scripture is at least as good as Pearl's, but as I've said before, the interpretation appears to unnecessarily "pick on" the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Earlier you quoted from Matthew 7:

¹⁷ Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. ¹⁸ A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

I realize that this is not about identifying an organization, but is more about how Christ Jesus along with Jehovah's spirit produces a good tree producing truth, comfort, healing, and good qualities among those who follow. The problem with your own view, in my opinion, is that you already claim that it's the association of Jehovah's Witnesses through which the faithful anointed are coming through, and for this reason such an association fulfills Bible prophecy. But these faithful anointed are therefore being produced through the association of Jehovah's Witnesses -- and no bad true tree can produce good fruit.

Also, anointed aside, I think all of us who are associated with Jehovah's Witnesses see GOOD FRUIT being produced among us. All of also see many of the wrongs, and most of us are not willing to discuss the wrongs, or admittedly, even "process" such things. Sometimes that's because some of us are obviously thinking that the organization has some kind of direct authority over us. This is no doubt a common view of immature Witnesses. But the Bible makes us realize that such an organization can be used as a tool for Christ's Kingdom interests, but that Christ's authority transcends organization. The organization is an expected result of trying to efficiently and lovingly get the word out to as many people as possible in as many lands (and languages) as possible. Human nature leads some in the organization to assume that they need to have (or see) some kind of temporal, worldly-styled authority over other persons, but many of us realize that we are not actually under the authority of men. Yet, we appreciate the leadership and example of men in the organization. 

Unrelated to that issue of authority, most of can easily see how the effect of a world-wide association of Witnesses is both an opportunity for each of us to show the fruits of God's spirit, and it becomes an example, even a "Witness," to the good effects of God's holy spirit. I'll grant that there is much to improve, but even if it produces SOME good fruit, then it is coming from a "good" tree. We don't have to chop down the tree, because it's not a bad tree. My own interpretation is that the "organization" is not the tree of Matt 7:17,18 anyway, it's just that the good influence of Jehovah's holy spirit helps such a "tool" to reflect usefulness as an "instrument" or "vessel" because it is made up of well meaning sincere and loving people who want to do what is right.

Organization or "orderliness" is just another potential result of wanting to do what is right in the best ways possible.

[Allen_Smith]

This is true. You don’t speak ill of the people you support. You don’t speak badly about TTH, Srecko, JTR, Anna, ComforMyPeople, Witness, Shiwiii Etc. People that either oppose the Watchtower or criticize it.

However, you do go to great lengths to argue with those that oppose the opposer’s position on false and misleading information. Much as you are accustomed to doing. There is a good reason why opposers tend to give you a positive vote.

Can it be because they see in you exactly how they feel in their hearts? Can it be, the people here have a disingenuous motive and falsely portray themselves as a light, when indeed their hearts are in darkness?

You just made a grave mistake supporting the nonsense of “Pearl” much as you have supported “Barbara Anderson” in the past. Apostasy is your greatest strength and it will continue to be. No wonder you kiss up to witness.

Isaiah 1:16

Meaningless Offerings

15When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; even though you multiply your prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood. 16Wash and cleanse yourselves. Remove your evil deeds from My sight. Stop doing evil! 17Learn to do right, seek justice, correct the oppressor, defend the fatherless, plead for the widow.

How do you justify the disdain that “witness” shows against 8 men that is the focus of that darkened heart? Compassion should not be something given but earned in order to receive mercy. Who, has given you the ability to forgive sin? Who has made you a spokesman for the Watchtower?

This person professes to be anointed. How dare either of you compare yourselves to the sound doctrine of Christ, and the words of God.

The same position of an immoral brother that you have always been.

1 Corinthians 5:13

Expel the Immoral Brother

12What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”

Birds of a feather flock together. A good reason not to criticize those that oppose the Watchtower. So don’t try to be a sanctimonious martyr of good will.

[Witness]

Dear JWI, I know you are fairly aware of what I believe, so hopefully I don't get too carried away here.

I do not have nearly the knowledge of scripture that Pearl has.  Inspiration of Holy Spirit among anointed is not a rare thing.  On the contrary, those who remain “in Christ” would be inspired to speak according to scripture – according to the direction the Holy Spirit would lead them.  Although it is “one Spirit”, each member of the anointed body would reveal its workings through the gifts individually given them. 1 Cor 12:7  Pearl’s gift benefits the other members – and all who care to listen -  in an exclusive way. 1 Cor 12:11

On 10/17/2019 at 9:48 AM, JW Insider said:

Sometimes that's because some of us are obviously thinking that the organization has some kind of direct authority over us. This is no doubt a common view of immature Witnesses.

I don’t think I would call those who have been disfellowshipped or shunned after say, 10-50 years spent in the organization, as “immature Witnesses”.  The authority over JWs, is an iron fist in a velvet glove.  The impact may not be felt, not perceived, until one stands up against its leaders.  Surely, you know that people who speak against a “leadership” for misguiding individuals with wrong teachings or expectations, put their lives at risk.  Those who do so in the organization, are the “mature ones”, who take hold of their own spiritual lives. They realize our judgment of eternal life or death comes from Christ. Rom 14:10 The assumed authority by men to judge people as spiritually “dead”, according to a big thick manual, (that is considered “confidential”) is frightening, isn’t it?  To accept such authority (or 'leadership') over JWs, when the organization digs in their heals to resist facing their own sins, is hypocrisy. How can love spring forth from a leadership of hypocrisy?

I so wish you could consider the “weightier matters” that I know you see, instead of justifying and making amends for the existence of the *organization, by straining out the gnat and swallowing a *camel.  Matt 23:23,24

On 10/17/2019 at 9:48 AM, JW Insider said:

But the Bible makes us realize that such an organization can be used as a tool for Christ's Kingdom interests, but that Christ's authority transcends organization.

I’m curious how the Bible reveals that an earthly organization in Satan’s realm, could possibly be used as a tool for Christ’s Kingdom interests.  Christ and Satan are enemies.  Why would Christ utilize power, authority, and material interests that are all that Satan lusts after, and freely gives others who desire it, (as the “ruler of this world” John 12:31)… to embellish his Kingdom interests?  Luke 4:5-7 

John 18:36: Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

His only interest is in the hearts of individuals.  If we submit individually to his authority, we become a “kingdom interest”.  Luke 17:21  It doesn’t take an organization to do this.

About trees and fruit.  Genesis mentions two trees. Gen 2:9 The tree that Eve eventually “ate” from, produced death. Rom 5:12  Satan offered her a lie, and she not only accepted it, but shared this lie with Adam.  BOTH lost the gift of life.    Jesus, as the Word of life, is the “tree” of life.  Gen 3:22; John 1:1,14 

He told us how we are to “eat” from the tree of life:

"Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”  John 6:57

“For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

³⁴ Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”

³⁵ And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.”  John 6:33,34

Through our obedience to his teachings, he says:

"Let anyone who has ears to hear listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.”  Rev 2:7 (also 22:14)

Since Christ is the Head of the anointed Body, his bodily members are also considered “trees”.  We know there would be no deviance, no misleading word or teaching coming from the mouth of Christ, since each word he spoke, contained life.  John 14:6  There is no “bad fruit” that Christ would produce.  So too, should it be with the anointed “trees” (or, branches of the vine) that are to “remain in him” – receiving the same Holy Spirit.  John 15:4; Mark 11:24; John 14:26 

The anointed must learn, from their Head, Christ.  It is only then that they also, can produce lasting “fruit”/teachings sourced from Holy Spirit.  John 6:56; Mal 2:7

On 10/17/2019 at 9:48 AM, JW Insider said:

I'll grant that there is much to improve, but even if it produces SOME good fruit, then it is coming from a "good" tree. We don't have to chop down the tree, because it's not a bad tree.

Well, could you be ignoring what Jesus taught about a “good tree”?  Would you be justifying WT’s teachings by doing so? He didn’t say both bad and good fruit are found on a good tree. Matt 7:18; 12:33

“For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit”  Luke 6:43

 Surely, since the Pharisees knew the law, there were good things that they taught the people (Matt 23:3),  but they were not considered by John the Baptist as a tree that imparted “good fruit”.  Matt 3:7-10

There is a clear distinction between what is good and what is bad in the Bible.  A “good” anointed tree would be found trustworthy to produce “fruit” sourced in Christ – always reliable, always lasting, teachings that always are able to be built upon.    John 15:16  If an anointed one misleads his hearers with a worthless piece of fruit – a “teaching” that he said is from God but is now discarded, how is this any different than the lie Satan told Eve?  Dear JWI, you are believing that “surely we will not die” because it is okay to accept doctrine from the leaders of “Jehovah’s organization” that was absolutely, a lie to begin with. 

Satan is “sifting” all of us by using “teachings”/words/lies, from his own bodily members - his “ministers of light”. Luke 22:31; 2 Cor 11:13-15  This is why, during the last days both truth and lies are presented by anointed “trees”/ “kings of the earth”.  Rev 1:5; 19:16,19  Which “tree” of those “kings" we choose to listen to, is what our heart desires.  Matt 10:40-42; 15:18; 2 Thess 2:9-12

In the Kingdom, along with the “tree of life”, are found his “trees”/Bride:

Ezek 47:12 -- "All kinds of trees providing food will grow along both banks of the river. Their leaves will not wither, and their fruit will not fail. Each month they will bear fresh fruit because the water comes from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be used for food and their leaves for medicine."

Rev 22:17 - “The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.”

John 7:38 - "Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”

And...I got carried away. 

 

"Two Trees" - 4womaninthewilderness blogspot Pearl Doxsey

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

There is a good reason why opposers tend to give you a positive vote.

And that is?  Can it be because they see in you exactly how they feel in their hearts?

What is wrong with that? What is wrong with that if somebody expressed in words what some other person was not been in capacity to put in such or similar way, yet. And also, positive vote can be given because they already feels that way, no matter of time when somebody gave particular comment.

Can it be, the people here have a disingenuous motive and falsely portray themselves as a light, when indeed their hearts are in darkness?

Well, well. Is  this general rule that including only other people, or is this applicable and to you too? Because you can't offer any guarantee for yourself, not in "real" reality, and especially not in this "virtual" reality. :))  

 

 

 

[Allen_Smith]

36 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Well, well. Is  this general rule that including only other people, or is this applicable and to you too? Because you can't offer any guarantee for yourself, not in "real" reality, and especially not in this "virtual" reality. :)) 

This is exactly why I didn't bother to answer you, back. Ex-witnesses have only ignorance to offer. I deal with Scholarly facts on debates, not boneheaded ones.

No different of that from Pearl Dorsey. An embarrassment to even consider as an anointed. However, her pupil here has not been appointed by anyone put herself. God knows exactly where his Holy Spirit will be most beneficial and by whom he elects.

I understand the counter argument. However, ex-witnesses as yourself, started that nonsense. Now prove how the governing body of the Watchtower is NOT in God's heart. They have more spirituality in their pinky than 100,000 ex-witnesses put together. Who do you think God would pick, sad people like you, or a person that his heart is in the sole service of God?

Even someone like you can see the logic. I don't aspect you to understand, since you have to defend and prop your denials, just know I don't care about it.

[Srecko Sostar]

5 minutes ago, Allen_Smith said:

Who do you think God would pick, sad people like you, or a person that his heart is in the sole service of God?

about sad people:

On hearing this, Jesus told them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

about sole service of God:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

[TrueTomHarley]

4 hours ago, Witness said:

I do not have nearly the knowledge of scripture that Pearl has. ...Pearl’s gift benefits the other members – and all who care to listen -  in an exclusive way. 

Imagine if I had made such a statement about any one of the Governing Body. 

Witness would deluge me with verses about not idolizing humans and it would take me weeks to dig out.

[Allen_Smith]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Imagine if I had made such a statement about any one of the Governing Body. 

Witness would deluge me with verses about not idolizing humans and it would take me weeks to dig out.

I wouldn't be too quick to mention Idolize, but instead respect for those that God has chosen. No one should admire anyone. It doesn't mean, it doesn't happen here. Sometime, people defend others that gave input toward a book. That doesn't mean it's right. That kind of support doesn't get anyone anywhere with God.

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

about sole service of God:

That would be the point. Look at your own actions and behavior. Don't worry about others. They will not be held into account in your behalf, unless you take the Responsibility of the FDS. Something tells me you have a lot to learn about scripture. Point being, the text you just submitted can be applied to you, and witness.

[Witness]

23 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Imagine if I had made such a statement about any one of the Governing Body. 

Witness would deluge me with verses about not idolizing humans and it would take me weeks to dig out.

How is this idolatry, by saying Pearl is being used "in an exclusive way"?   Wasn't Paul, and all the apostles used in an exclusive way?  Do you know how faithful anointed were used over the last 2,000 years?  The faithful were busy serving God as He expected, in whatever capacity he bestowed on them.  

There is no comparison between Pearl and a GB who write their own doctrine, set of rules, that contradicts the Bible.  But, that comes with earthly "organization" that needs your money...to thrive.  

 

whoops.  Sorry.  I was to use...@TTH