JW OPPOSERS GROUPS

[Arauna]

12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be impossible for them.”

See below - important scripture!

11 hours ago, Witness said:

How do you ignore every aspect the WT uses to gain assets in the world

We are reaching the point where human control over others will have no limit (as quoted scripture above indicates) and political and religion are close bedfellows - just like in Babylon when Nimrod merged false religion with hegemony.  They will dictate religion as part of state as they are  doing now in China.

Individuals buy property, get business licenses (just like our organization). This means they are IN the world and have to make a living with "unrighteous riches" .  BUT they are no part of the world.  I have not seen a witness run for office, lobby against LGBT or abortion (even though they do not condone it), participate in demonstrations or vote. 

We are without spot from the political system because we obey the laws as far as possible and do not oppose its mechanisms in activist way. We are also without spot in a moral way because we will NOT go to war or practice abortion or LGBT  - even if it has been legalized and legit in the world.

To tyranize against GB because they conduct business is not taking into account that Jesus said we can use "unrighteous riches" for him. God did not originally plan for man to have a financial system..... so it is unrighteous.

Remember the prophecy of the final situation where we will not be able to 'buy or sell' if we do not conform (morally- the good and bad values of jehovah) to this system and NOT give our worship/ moral obedience to the state. 

Our test will be great because you will become persona non grata when your digital bank account with all your money is locked because you accept the ransom sacrifice of Jesus or do not practice LGBT.   I read of a trans that wanted to sleep with a married man and he called it a hate crime when declined....... this where the world us heading with a possibility of it becoming LGBTQP.  

Those who are without moral spot of this world/society (issue of good and bad and choosing Jehovahs sovreignty against directives of state and wicked society - as Adam chose) will be persecuted. 

 

[Witness]

 

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I know this wasn't to me, but I'd like to answer.

I believe you hold the most optimistic broad view of the organization that you are able, in light of its tarnished image.  Your viewpoint deviates from the normal belief of a JW, and especially of its leadership. 

Yes, there is a basic initial attraction to the message, which doesn’t cause spiritual damage.  What does cause damage is what follows, when someone has been led to believe the organization is vital to serving God and Christ and that it always will serve up “truth”.   Vital, because these new ones come to understand from its leaders, that there is no other way that God approves. It causes damage to families by separating them when one rejects the organization as salvation – which is just what you said you don’t believe.  The ugliness cannot be erased away by a handful of teachings concerning war, hellfire, and the trinity.  It would be disingenuous to oneself to believe worship within the organization is good and acceptable to God, when the organization’s sins are laid bare; perhaps aided by the people who possibly received the initial attractive message.  You had made the comment earlier that you believed Christ transcends the organization.  You are not the typical JW, who believes Christ ONLY guides the WT.  This is an impressed teaching from the GB.  It will be reinforced, and the majority of JWs will hold it as truth, even if in your heart, you don’t believe it.  It is known as “God’s organization”, the whole package – sins and all. 

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

We are each to be concerned with what sort of person we ought to be, not based on what someone else tells us:

  I agree, but WT's teachings discourage critical and independent thinking. 

This is what I know from Revelation.    In the last days, an organization develops that touts to be spirit-directed, overcomes the saints/anointed and threatens to spiritually “kill” anyone who refuses to give credence, respect and awe to its existence.  It is guided by a false prophet who appears to represent Christ.  This leadership has transgressed their covenant in Christ, which is obvious by their unscriptural demand that their anointed “brothers” are not to bond together. (You will read about this again in the Jan, 2020 study magazine)  It “tramples” down the priesthood of God using soften slander against them, expecting this priesthood to obey the men who not only represent them, but have charge over them. (Rev chapter 13)  I know from scripture that this breaks God’s decrees. And, I am aware that this is how Satan attempt to destroy the the remaining ones of the “woman’s seed”.  I am thoroughly convinced that the organization is a counterfeit. How can any type of preaching be acceptable to God when His special possession/dwelling/Temple/”organization” has been replaced by an earthly organization? This is what I wish JWs could perceive; God’s “invisible” organization are those priests who are presently trampled. Revelation and Daniel’s prophesy concerning the remnant is in full swing, and not having its fulfillment in the world. 

When reading Rev 18:4-8, God’s people are to “come out” of the “Harlot’s” grip.  His “people” are His “special possession” already gathered in the WT, where they are held fast by captive philosophy,  knowing that they may lose family for speaking against the tarnished image that claims to be the path to salvation.  You may not believe this, but it is how an individual can earn the title, “apostate” -  an individual who may have been delighted to learn about those basic truths.  I wish so much you could see that Revelation concerns the deception that misleads God’s people.

A gathering of believers – a “congregation” -  is much different than an organization that must initiate guidelines set by men.  When this happens, unrighteous judgment and oppression are bound to occur, which I’m sure you know.  The operation of “organization” reflects all others in the world. Can one continue to believe they are no part of the world, while submitting to the traditional worldly procedures of “organization”?

 Think about it, in the organization, anointed are told they cannot gather together, by the men who represent them, since it would destroy the unity of "organization".  Since being out of the WT, I can gather with whomever I choose, and study the Bible in depth, with no one to judge me but Christ. Rom 14:4  If God desires a good searching heart to know His Son and Truth, He will make sure it is accomplished…without the need of earthly organization.  

I have refrained from adding scriptures, since they are plentiful in all other comments and posts I have made. 

 

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

On 11/3/2019 at 10:28 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

 

On 11/2/2019 at 3:50 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

There is a very real reason the WTB&TS discourages comprehensive education.

Yes. So that the worldwide rot that it has collectively produced does not manifest itself in the congregation.

I am even almost to the point of doubling down on that statement that reading the Awake is the equivalent of a 4 year college education. Every so often I still hear some old-timer repeating it—usually one with little secular education. it is a ridiculous statement on the surface and opponents have been beating us over the head with it from Day 1. If we dig a little, however, we see that it is not so ridiculous, and in some respects—the important ones—it is even spot on.

Where did that statement first appear? It certainly was never an official statement of policy. I think it was someone’s personal observation and expression of appreciation for what is published. Maybe it was included in someone’s life experiences or in some short snippet piece like that old “Watching the World” series. Does anybody know? Like @The Librarian (that old hen)?

For education to be any good, you have to be able to do something with it. It should add up to something. But like juxtaposed waves, much of the product of higher education cancels itself out. It results in opposing philosophies and schools of thought that can barely coexist, that fails dismally those of the greater world caught in the crosshairs It is a building that someone lays down blocks by day and his adversary takes them apart at night, a field that someone sows fine seed by day and his enemy sabotages with weeds at night. What good is it? If you look at individual components, you are impressed. If you look at collective results, you are unimpressed—you may even be disgusted. 

In contrast, the Bible education Witnesses enjoy serves to unite them. The secular education of each individual might be less than the world average, but it is offset by being cumulative, cooperative, not competitive. Nor is it lacking in anything truly of practical use. Would anyone say that the JW organization is lacking in engineering skills? In digital skills? Environmental skills? Architectural skills? Managerial skills, and so forth?

Moreover, when one Witness knows something of practical use, he freely passes it along to others. This does not happen in the overall world where paywalls are the norm. Knowledge there is not given away—one must pay an enormous amount to be privy to it. College expenses (in the US) incurs debt that is not discharged for decades, and in some cases, never is.

A prime sticking point in US-China trade negotiations is the claim that the Chinese do not respect intellectual property—they rip off the technology of others. Can anyone imagine the American Bethel and an Asian Bethel getting into such a spat? It is inconceivable. If the US Witnesses know it, Asia gets it free. If the Asian Witnesses know it, the US gets it free.

Don’t go telling me about the excelling value of this world’s education. It rises to higher peaks—no question about it. But then it negates the value of those peaks by failure to provide the moral underpinnings that each Witness gets for free in the Awake.

(Of course, Awake is not anything like it used to be. It has been scaled way back. But the point still stands. All you need to is broaden the subject from just a magazine to the entire resources of the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization. Surely that is fair. After all, the education of the Awake was never compared to a single college—it was compared to the entire world’s educational system.)

[Srecko Sostar]

12 hours ago, Arauna said:

God did not originally plan for man to have a financial system..... so it is unrighteous.

If i understand few first verses of Genesis in right way, God did not originally plan for man to have:

-patriarchal system

-slavery

-noble class

-warriors

-religious and secular leadership

....etc

But this and more was part of Israel nation for centuries. 

What is righteous, and what is unrighteous before God and before human, is deep water.

[Arauna]

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

For education to be any good, you have to be able to do something with it. It

 

3 hours ago, Witness said:

convinced

Actually, those who still tout worldly education are not up to date with what is going on at universities- especially the fields in humanities.

There are many 'generic' degrees that have no value except put the person in debt for life.  The new degrees in feminism, social studies etc. Is guaranteed to turn the student into a walking nutcase who believes that men can have periods and gender is not determined by x and y chromosomes. Touchy feely persons who are triggered by every politically incorrect utterance and bully others who do not think as they do. 

Even the sciences and judicial system are now effected by this nonsense. There is a gynecologist in the news who is having her son of 7 years go though a sex change and the court has gone against the rational father. 

An education is supposed to give one proper thinking skills...... to be objective and logic.  But throwing right and wrong away and replacing it with human philosophy is leading to disaster.

At least bible reading helps one see realities and gives a moral compass....... something which is missing in the current scenario at colleges and universities.

 

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Where did that statement first appear? It certainly was never an official statement of policy. I think it was someone’s personal observation and expression of appreciation for what is published. Maybe it was included in someone’s life experiences or in some short snippet piece like that old “Watching the World” series. Does anybody know?

It was probably a suggestion from the Service Department to all Circuit Overseers to have them make that point especially during the years leading up to 1975. I recall two or three circuit overseers during the period when I was considering quitting high school. Also, if you look at some of the "ads" for Rutherford's books, it's the kind of hype they were given, too, so I suspect that such an idea (in different words) might have been around well before that, perhaps originally a method of touting the "Golden Age." 

I don't think the idea ever made it to print, except maybe in a talk outline, where it would have been based on someone's personal experience or based on some anecdote.

The idea of keeping up with the Watchtower and Awake! lining up with 4 years of college did work its way into this article in 1983: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1983448

*** w83 6/15 p. 31 An Excellent Education ***
IT HAS been said that by reading the Watchtower and Awake! magazines, along with other publications of Jehovah’s Witnesses, a person will receive, over a period of years, a considerable and broad education. To illustrate, one of Jehovah’s Witnesses wrote the following letter:
“I quit school in the 9th grade about twenty-five years ago. I have had no secular schooling since then. I should have, by all rights, stagnated mentally. Due to economic circumstances—I had to go to work full time to support my family—I found it necessary to go back to school for a high school diploma. I began school two days ago and the teacher decided to give me a test like the one I will have to pass to get my diploma. The test covered such subjects as science, law, social studies and reading comprehension. I told the teacher I didn’t want to take it because I knew I wouldn’t do well. But she insisted.
“The result was that I scored one of the highest grades. The test grade needed to obtain the diploma is 35, which is the average score. I scored in the 55 range, or 4th year college level. Why am I telling this? Because the main source of my reading in the last eight years has been the publications of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I am an avid reader of them and do quite a bit of research.
“In the test that I took, I recognized that many of the answers were found in recent issues of our publications. For example, on science there were questions about fluorocarbons, a subject that had been discussed in Awake! It was similar with questions regarding physics, law and other subjects, including recent news events. Such events had been covered in the ‘Watching the World’ section of Awake! Also, my reading comprehension was exceptionally good.

 

 

[Witness]

17 hours ago, Arauna said:

To tyranize against GB because they conduct business is not taking into account that Jesus said we can use "unrighteous riches" for him.

Did Jesus say we could use our material riches for him?   This contradicts his words in Luke 18:22:

 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” 

“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. ²⁰ But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. ²¹ For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”  Matt 6:19-21   

There is no scripture that I know of, indicating where Jesus put any value on accumulating money or riches and providing these riches for him. Matt 21:12,13

Do you remember it was Satan who offered Jesus the kingdoms, their glory (and their riches) in the world?  Do you think he has, in the last days, made a pact with Satan, that he’ll now take riches from JWs for himself to build his own kingdoms in the world?

 “Unrighteous riches” convey a different, spiritual meaning:

 

 ^“When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money ¹⁹ and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” ²⁰ Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! ²¹ You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God.” Acts 8:18-21

No one, can buy the gift of life with money or material riches, as the WT is telling you. 

17 hours ago, Arauna said:

Remember the prophecy of the final situation where we will not be able to 'buy or sell' if we do not conform (morally- the good and bad values of jehovah) to this system and NOT give our worship/ moral obedience to the state. 

Our test will be great because you will become persona non grata when your digital bank account with all your money is locked because you accept the ransom sacrifice of Jesus or do not practice LGBT. 

Undoubtedly, the world will suffer in extraordinary ways that we haven’t experienced before.  But, you are reading into a symbolic book, Revelation, an incorrect view the meaning of “buy and sell”.  In three instances, the book uses the word “buy”. 

“I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. ¹⁹ Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.”  Rev 3:18,19

I know you don’t think Christ is offering us literal gold, and we do not buy this gold with literal money.  This ‘treasure’ in gold refers to eternal life gained from the outpouring of his blood.  We “buy” this, not with literal riches in the world (that Wt teaches as “unrighteous riches”) but through repentance, obedience, and faith in his sacrifice.  We pay for it with our pure, clean, refined devotion to God. Mal 3:2-4; 1 Cor 3:13,14; John 17:17 We pay back Jesus by offering ourselves as obedient servants to his commands.  John 15:10; 2 Cor 5:15

 The symbolism of “buying” continues in Rev 13:17, where the “Beast”/false prophet of Rev 13:11,12 admonishes one to “buy” ITS spiritual “riches” produced by the organization that it directs.  (The WT also refers to the Wild Beast of Rev 13:1 as an "organization")  If one decided to reject this spiritual commodity, they are spiritually, symbolically “killed”. Rev 13:15  Now, isn’t this what the GB expects of all JWs, to “buy” whatever “food” comes from the “faithful and discreet slave” who “sell” it under the stipulation that no other spiritual commodities are acceptable?  How does a JW pay for it? With their devotion, servitude and respect for the organization and its leaders.  One must bear the “mark of the beast/organization” to take part in this spiritual transaction.  There’s a lot of controlled buying and selling by all parties, in the org.  2 Cor 11:2-4

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I am an avid reader of them and do quite a bit of research.

Follow Truth wherever it leads, and worry it away from the Universe, and you will do better than those that read to kill time, or because they are "supposed" to.

[TrueTomHarley]

18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The idea of keeping up with the Watchtower and Awake! lining up with 4 years of college did work its way into this article in 1983:

I am reminded of LeRoy Green—he would have said something like this. Leroy Green, who in the mixed congregation would drawl on without the slightest self-consciousness about “working for the white man” down in Mississippi. LeRoy Green, who retired from the railroads after 30 years with an intact pension. LeRoy Green, who in his 80s, was sought after by the younger brothers so they could jam with him. LeRoy Green, who, as I learned from relatives at his funeral, turned down an offer to tour with B.B.King, out of concern for his family and spirituality. LeRoy Green, with the most deep and infectious “hee-hee-hee” laugh you have ever heard, who I tried to line up to one day give my own funeral talk. It would have been one not to miss. I would have raised myself up from the dead to hear it: “Hee hee hee. Yeesss, that Tom Harley, he was a good ol boy. But he’s deeead now—D-E-A-D!”

Unfortunately, LeRoy Green died first. He would have been one to say—I think I do recall him saying it—that keeping up with theocratic publications was the equivalent of a 4-year college education.

[Matthew9969]

So the engineers and such who planned the new luxury digs for the gb were high school dropouts who just read a lot of awake magazines?

[Arauna]

8 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

dropouts who just read a lot of awake magazines?

Definitely not dropouts...... one can keep learning without going to university.  One can get very talented people who have NO degree.......in science or art but still attain an extremely high level of competency.  

We have many engineers who are in the truth and they DO read a lot of Awake magazines ...and also magazines pertaining to their secular jobs to remain up  to date.

 

12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

the equivalent of a 4-year college education.

Any subject that one has studied for 12 years is equal to a college education. The first two years of college education teaches one the basic terminology and mechanisms. The third and fourth year are more advanced. It is only at master and doctorate level  one can say one us a master at one facet of a subject. 

Most witnesses know the basics of the bible in first year and after that start to build their knowledge. Bring me a doctor of theology that understands that Jesus is not God, that the soul of jesus died at his death, that keeping parts of the law such as sabbath and tithes are incorrect....... and I can go on and on........

It depends on the individual JW to maintain the first two year skills given to them and improve on it by self-study  and preparing well for the meetings. 

 

[Arauna]

Witness,  if you have the idea that God did plan for a financial system in this wicked world to exist and we should see  "unrighteous riches" as symbolic...... then go ahead and believe what you want.

I believe that God allowed a financial system to exist after Adam and Eve sinned and it therefore is unrighteous. What we earn from it is also "unrighteous."  BUT we can serve God by means of our unrighteous riches by paying for things (petrol, our time we can use to gain unrighteous riches) etc.