Jump to content

The Librarian

JW OPPOSERS GROUPS

Topic Summary

Created

Last Reply

Replies

Views

The Librarian -
TrueTomHarley -
386
7476

Top Posters


Recommended Posts

@TrueTomHarley - “They originate with the world; that is why they speak what originates with the world and the world listens to them.” (1 John 4:5)

 

You certainly promote “organization” as necessary to “discipline” an individual spiritually.  Or so it seems.  Your organization is embroiled in lawsuits, investments, stocks, trade, real estate, as many other organization are. It can soar or fail, as any other organization can.  How does this type of “organization” promote one to be “no part of the world”?  Is it because men set their ground rules and have convinced you that by following them, you are no part of the world?   It is a corporate entity at its core.  At YOUR level, you see a facade of spiritual security.  1 Thess 5:3  Look deeper Tom, and you will perceive the glaring truth of worldly as well as spiritual, corruption that runs through the veins of the WT; which means, having any part of it, makes one part of the "world".  

The disciplinary rules are outlined in the Bible.  If we are sincere about following Christ (and not men),we will have the ability to do so without an earthly organization.  Jesus told us that this is the approved way of worship.  John 4:10,13,21-24 

It comes down to whom you will listen to - powerful (in seducing), persuasive men who have built their most awesome empire; or simply, Christ.

3 "However, I’m afraid that as the snake deceived Eve by its tricks, so your minds may somehow be lured away from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 When someone comes to you telling about another Jesus whom we didn’t tell you about, you’re willing to put up with it. When you receive a spirit that is different from the Spirit you received earlier, you’re also willing to put up with that. When someone tells you good news that is different from the Good News you already accepted, you’re willing to put up with that too."  2 Cor 11:3,4

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Witness said:

It comes down to whom you will listen to - powerful (in seducing), persuasive men who have built their most awesome empire; or simply, Christ.

Come, come. Do you really think Stephen Lett is seducing and persuasive? He follows in the footsteps of ones of the first century who were so “ordinary” and “uneducated” that they were embarrassing in a world centered around “wisdom.” People find it necessary to go to bat for him:

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/01/let-us-appreciate-brother-lett.html

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Your organization is embroiled in lawsuits, investments, stocks, trade, real estate, as many other organization are. It can soar or fail, as any other organization can.

Last I heard, your organization consisted of a page on Facebook. Thus, every time I see Mark Zuckerburg bumbling his way through Congress, flailing away against charges that he is rotting the fabric of society and handing the country over to the Russians, I am shocked—I tell you, shocked!—that you would be bedfellows with him!

The reason humans organize is so they can do things. The motive to deprive them of organization is so they cannot. It is no more complicated than that.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

If we are sincere about following Christ (and not men),we will have the ability to do so without an earthly organization.

Yes. And if we want to serve Christ we organize so as to best bring our God-given talents to bear. Even when the scoundrels organize, God takes note that they do what they could not do as individual loose cannons:

Then Jehovah went down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men had built.  Jehovah then said: “Look! They are one people with one language, and this is what they have started to do. Now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be impossible for them.”

Maybe that is what is so odious about a certain branch of Christendom. It is so selfish. “Me & Jesus” is all that counts—being saved. The thought of actually doing anything concrete in service to him turns them right off.

Last I heard, God is pleased when we bring him our best, not when we abstain from what we otherwise could accomplish because it is too much work. You get to “enter Jehovah’s rest” when you take him up on his invitation, rest from your own and thus find refreshment in entering a work that is bigger than yourself. It is by “tasting” that you come to know that “Jehovah is good.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TTH - "Last I heard, your organization consisted of a page on Facebook."

That is one of many sources where a person can find “good news”. If FB shut me down, I don’t suffer any loss.  If the Watchtower is shut down; well, you saw Stephen Lett’s face when he stated Russia had seized WT’s material holdings, didn’t you?  I don’t pay into facebook, unlike JW’s who pay into a “preaching work” that requires lawyers to fend off victims of child abuse, or to fight for their material holdings in Russia.  Or, tell their lies in court concerning shunning.  

  My “organization” is the anointed Body of Christ. 

 https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/forums/topic/85226-does-god-have-an-organization/

TTH - "Last I heard, God is pleased when we bring him our best, not when we abstain from what we otherwise could accomplish because it is too much work".

Could you be speaking of cart witnessing as bringing God one's "best"?  Oh my.  As if pulling up a chair and saying nothing to people passing by is pleasing to God?

How do you ignore the blatant disrespect the organization has toward the law of the land? Rom 13:1-7 How do you ignore every aspect the WT uses to gain assets in the world, besides free labor to build whatever they wish?  This doesn't please God!  James 5:1-6  This pleases the ruler of this world. Phil 3:17-19

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Witness said:

How does this type of “organization” promote one to be “no part of the world”?

I know this wasn't to me, but I'd like to answer. You know that I don't think it is the organization itself that keeps us apart from the world. I think of the organization as tainted by the world in many ways, too. It's not a magical "ark of the covenant" to have in our possession. It has been and will be run by humans with many failings. And to be an organization in this world it has to associate with non-believers, and worldly people, in much the same way that Paul said:

(1 Corinthians 5:10) . . .Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world.

That said, an organization though in this world can very clearly promote being "no part of the world." Just as any Christian can associate with non-believers in the world. An organization can put "Read God's Word the Holy Bible Daily" on the side of its factory buildings. It can put Bible messages on carts that are set up all over big cities. It can promote Bibles, tracts, and magazines that show why one should not participate in wars, divisive politics, unclean habits, immoral behavior, etc. Not saying much of anything while sitting/standing next to a cart is only ONE of many methods used to promote Bibles, tracts, and magazines.

I wonder what you think of the American Bible Society, or even other religious Tract Societies of the 19th and 20th centuries. I agree that the actual spiritual organization that Jehovah and Christ sees does not require the physical Watchtower organization, per se. But I also think that if you put a group of Christians together they will certainly begin considering ways to get the good news of the Kingdom out to as many people as they can over a given time period. A pooling of resources so that willing persons can make use of efficiencies of scale in printing and distributing kingdom related messages will be inevitable. This doesn't mean that the organization is the source of salvation, it's just a reflection of the love for the message and the attempt to share it worldwide as efficiently as possible.

I also think it's true that not every Christian will be working at the center of such an organization, nor will all of them believe that they need to participate in the exact same ministry as the average person associated with the organization. Some will look into ways that TV, Internet, and streaming video can be used to get a message promoted. Some will feel more comfortable helping their neighbors in other ways if they don't feel called to any kind of teaching ministry. I believe that even these ones, who may not participate in all recommended aspects of ministry promoted by the organization will still prefer to attend congregations to learn what is taught by others. And I believe that the teachings they will be attracted to with the most Christian appeal will include some of the teachings I mentioned before: no war, no divisive politics, no hellfire, no Trinity, yes to high moral standards, yes to associating with like-minded Christians.

The organization Jehovah and Jesus looks for is invisible, I agree. It includes direct communication with Jehovah in our personal lives (through prayer, study, and our requests for a measure of holy spirit) for guidance, in the same way that the Governing Body directly communicates with Jehovah (through prayer, study, and their requests for a measure of holy spirit). We are not "brought to Christ" through the Governing Body. We are responsible for our own spiritual lives. We are each to be concerned with what sort of person we ought to be, not based on what someone else tells us:

(Philippians 2:12, 13) . . .keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For God is the one who for the sake of his good pleasure energizes you, giving you both the desire and the power to act.

(2 Corinthians 5:9, 10) 9 So whether at home with him or absent from him, we make it our aim to be acceptable to him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of the Christ, so that each one may be repaid according to the things he has practiced while in the body, whether good or bad.

(Galatians 6:4, 5) . . .But let each one examine his own actions, and then he will have cause for rejoicing in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. 5 For each one will carry his own load.

But I also don't think that all we do is somehow negated by associating with others of like faith who are just as well meaning as we are, and who are also persons we can help strengthen and comfort and encourage, just as they can also do for us. Do you really think that even associating with fellow Witnesses is so bad that Jehovah cannot see our hearts, and find us in his "invisible" organization, too?

(Romans 11:2-6) . . .Do you not know what the scripture says in connection with E·liʹjah, as he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Jehovah, they have killed your prophets, they have dug up your altars, and I alone am left, and now they are trying to take my life.” 4 Yet, what does the divine pronouncement say to him? “I have left for myself 7,000 men who have not bent the knee to Baʹal.” 5 So in the same way, at the present time also, there is a remnant according to a choosing through undeserved kindness. 6 Now if it is by undeserved kindness, it is no longer through works; otherwise, the undeserved kindness would no longer be undeserved kindness.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be impossible for them.”

See below - important scripture!

11 hours ago, Witness said:

How do you ignore every aspect the WT uses to gain assets in the world

We are reaching the point where human control over others will have no limit (as quoted scripture above indicates) and political and religion are close bedfellows - just like in Babylon when Nimrod merged false religion with hegemony.  They will dictate religion as part of state as they are  doing now in China.

Individuals buy property, get business licenses (just like our organization). This means they are IN the world and have to make a living with "unrighteous riches" .  BUT they are no part of the world.  I have not seen a witness run for office, lobby against LGBT or abortion (even though they do not condone it), participate in demonstrations or vote. 

We are without spot from the political system because we obey the laws as far as possible and do not oppose its mechanisms in activist way. We are also without spot in a moral way because we will NOT go to war or practice abortion or LGBT  - even if it has been legalized and legit in the world.

To tyranize against GB because they conduct business is not taking into account that Jesus said we can use "unrighteous riches" for him. God did not originally plan for man to have a financial system..... so it is unrighteous.

Remember the prophecy of the final situation where we will not be able to 'buy or sell' if we do not conform (morally- the good and bad values of jehovah) to this system and NOT give our worship/ moral obedience to the state. 

Our test will be great because you will become persona non grata when your digital bank account with all your money is locked because you accept the ransom sacrifice of Jesus or do not practice LGBT.   I read of a trans that wanted to sleep with a married man and he called it a hate crime when declined....... this where the world us heading with a possibility of it becoming LGBTQP.  

Those who are without moral spot of this world/society (issue of good and bad and choosing Jehovahs sovreignty against directives of state and wicked society - as Adam chose) will be persecuted. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I know this wasn't to me, but I'd like to answer.

I believe you hold the most optimistic broad view of the organization that you are able, in light of its tarnished image.  Your viewpoint deviates from the normal belief of a JW, and especially of its leadership. 

Yes, there is a basic initial attraction to the message, which doesn’t cause spiritual damage.  What does cause damage is what follows, when someone has been led to believe the organization is vital to serving God and Christ and that it always will serve up “truth”.   Vital, because these new ones come to understand from its leaders, that there is no other way that God approves. It causes damage to families by separating them when one rejects the organization as salvation – which is just what you said you don’t believe.  The ugliness cannot be erased away by a handful of teachings concerning war, hellfire, and the trinity.  It would be disingenuous to oneself to believe worship within the organization is good and acceptable to God, when the organization’s sins are laid bare; perhaps aided by the people who possibly received the initial attractive message.  You had made the comment earlier that you believed Christ transcends the organization.  You are not the typical JW, who believes Christ ONLY guides the WT.  This is an impressed teaching from the GB.  It will be reinforced, and the majority of JWs will hold it as truth, even if in your heart, you don’t believe it.  It is known as “God’s organization”, the whole package – sins and all. 

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

We are each to be concerned with what sort of person we ought to be, not based on what someone else tells us:

  I agree, but WT's teachings discourage critical and independent thinking. 

This is what I know from Revelation.    In the last days, an organization develops that touts to be spirit-directed, overcomes the saints/anointed and threatens to spiritually “kill” anyone who refuses to give credence, respect and awe to its existence.  It is guided by a false prophet who appears to represent Christ.  This leadership has transgressed their covenant in Christ, which is obvious by their unscriptural demand that their anointed “brothers” are not to bond together. (You will read about this again in the Jan, 2020 study magazine)  It “tramples” down the priesthood of God using soften slander against them, expecting this priesthood to obey the men who not only represent them, but have charge over them. (Rev chapter 13)  I know from scripture that this breaks God’s decrees. And, I am aware that this is how Satan attempt to destroy the the remaining ones of the “woman’s seed”.  I am thoroughly convinced that the organization is a counterfeit. How can any type of preaching be acceptable to God when His special possession/dwelling/Temple/”organization” has been replaced by an earthly organization? This is what I wish JWs could perceive; God’s “invisible” organization are those priests who are presently trampled. Revelation and Daniel’s prophesy concerning the remnant is in full swing, and not having its fulfillment in the world. 

When reading Rev 18:4-8, God’s people are to “come out” of the “Harlot’s” grip.  His “people” are His “special possession” already gathered in the WT, where they are held fast by captive philosophy,  knowing that they may lose family for speaking against the tarnished image that claims to be the path to salvation.  You may not believe this, but it is how an individual can earn the title, “apostate” -  an individual who may have been delighted to learn about those basic truths.  I wish so much you could see that Revelation concerns the deception that misleads God’s people.

A gathering of believers – a “congregation” -  is much different than an organization that must initiate guidelines set by men.  When this happens, unrighteous judgment and oppression are bound to occur, which I’m sure you know.  The operation of “organization” reflects all others in the world. Can one continue to believe they are no part of the world, while submitting to the traditional worldly procedures of “organization”?

 Think about it, in the organization, anointed are told they cannot gather together, by the men who represent them, since it would destroy the unity of "organization".  Since being out of the WT, I can gather with whomever I choose, and study the Bible in depth, with no one to judge me but Christ. Rom 14:4  If God desires a good searching heart to know His Son and Truth, He will make sure it is accomplished…without the need of earthly organization.  

I have refrained from adding scriptures, since they are plentiful in all other comments and posts I have made. 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/3/2019 at 10:28 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

 

On 11/2/2019 at 3:50 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

There is a very real reason the WTB&TS discourages comprehensive education.

Yes. So that the worldwide rot that it has collectively produced does not manifest itself in the congregation.

I am even almost to the point of doubling down on that statement that reading the Awake is the equivalent of a 4 year college education. Every so often I still hear some old-timer repeating it—usually one with little secular education. it is a ridiculous statement on the surface and opponents have been beating us over the head with it from Day 1. If we dig a little, however, we see that it is not so ridiculous, and in some respects—the important ones—it is even spot on.

Where did that statement first appear? It certainly was never an official statement of policy. I think it was someone’s personal observation and expression of appreciation for what is published. Maybe it was included in someone’s life experiences or in some short snippet piece like that old “Watching the World” series. Does anybody know? Like @The Librarian (that old hen)?

For education to be any good, you have to be able to do something with it. It should add up to something. But like juxtaposed waves, much of the product of higher education cancels itself out. It results in opposing philosophies and schools of thought that can barely coexist, that fails dismally those of the greater world caught in the crosshairs It is a building that someone lays down blocks by day and his adversary takes them apart at night, a field that someone sows fine seed by day and his enemy sabotages with weeds at night. What good is it? If you look at individual components, you are impressed. If you look at collective results, you are unimpressed—you may even be disgusted. 

In contrast, the Bible education Witnesses enjoy serves to unite them. The secular education of each individual might be less than the world average, but it is offset by being cumulative, cooperative, not competitive. Nor is it lacking in anything truly of practical use. Would anyone say that the JW organization is lacking in engineering skills? In digital skills? Environmental skills? Architectural skills? Managerial skills, and so forth?

Moreover, when one Witness knows something of practical use, he freely passes it along to others. This does not happen in the overall world where paywalls are the norm. Knowledge there is not given away—one must pay an enormous amount to be privy to it. College expenses (in the US) incurs debt that is not discharged for decades, and in some cases, never is.

A prime sticking point in US-China trade negotiations is the claim that the Chinese do not respect intellectual property—they rip off the technology of others. Can anyone imagine the American Bethel and an Asian Bethel getting into such a spat? It is inconceivable. If the US Witnesses know it, Asia gets it free. If the Asian Witnesses know it, the US gets it free.

Don’t go telling me about the excelling value of this world’s education. It rises to higher peaks—no question about it. But then it negates the value of those peaks by failure to provide the moral underpinnings that each Witness gets for free in the Awake.

(Of course, Awake is not anything like it used to be. It has been scaled way back. But the point still stands. All you need to is broaden the subject from just a magazine to the entire resources of the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization. Surely that is fair. After all, the education of the Awake was never compared to a single college—it was compared to the entire world’s educational system.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Arauna said:

God did not originally plan for man to have a financial system..... so it is unrighteous.

If i understand few first verses of Genesis in right way, God did not originally plan for man to have:

-patriarchal system

-slavery

-noble class

-warriors

-religious and secular leadership

....etc

But this and more was part of Israel nation for centuries. 

What is righteous, and what is unrighteous before God and before human, is deep water.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

For education to be any good, you have to be able to do something with it. It

 

3 hours ago, Witness said:

convinced

Actually, those who still tout worldly education are not up to date with what is going on at universities- especially the fields in humanities.

There are many 'generic' degrees that have no value except put the person in debt for life.  The new degrees in feminism, social studies etc. Is guaranteed to turn the student into a walking nutcase who believes that men can have periods and gender is not determined by x and y chromosomes. Touchy feely persons who are triggered by every politically incorrect utterance and bully others who do not think as they do. 

Even the sciences and judicial system are now effected by this nonsense. There is a gynecologist in the news who is having her son of 7 years go though a sex change and the court has gone against the rational father. 

An education is supposed to give one proper thinking skills...... to be objective and logic.  But throwing right and wrong away and replacing it with human philosophy is leading to disaster.

At least bible reading helps one see realities and gives a moral compass....... something which is missing in the current scenario at colleges and universities.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Where did that statement first appear? It certainly was never an official statement of policy. I think it was someone’s personal observation and expression of appreciation for what is published. Maybe it was included in someone’s life experiences or in some short snippet piece like that old “Watching the World” series. Does anybody know?

It was probably a suggestion from the Service Department to all Circuit Overseers to have them make that point especially during the years leading up to 1975. I recall two or three circuit overseers during the period when I was considering quitting high school. Also, if you look at some of the "ads" for Rutherford's books, it's the kind of hype they were given, too, so I suspect that such an idea (in different words) might have been around well before that, perhaps originally a method of touting the "Golden Age." 

I don't think the idea ever made it to print, except maybe in a talk outline, where it would have been based on someone's personal experience or based on some anecdote.

The idea of keeping up with the Watchtower and Awake! lining up with 4 years of college did work its way into this article in 1983: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1983448

*** w83 6/15 p. 31 An Excellent Education ***
IT HAS been said that by reading the Watchtower and Awake! magazines, along with other publications of Jehovah’s Witnesses, a person will receive, over a period of years, a considerable and broad education. To illustrate, one of Jehovah’s Witnesses wrote the following letter:
“I quit school in the 9th grade about twenty-five years ago. I have had no secular schooling since then. I should have, by all rights, stagnated mentally. Due to economic circumstances—I had to go to work full time to support my family—I found it necessary to go back to school for a high school diploma. I began school two days ago and the teacher decided to give me a test like the one I will have to pass to get my diploma. The test covered such subjects as science, law, social studies and reading comprehension. I told the teacher I didn’t want to take it because I knew I wouldn’t do well. But she insisted.
“The result was that I scored one of the highest grades. The test grade needed to obtain the diploma is 35, which is the average score. I scored in the 55 range, or 4th year college level. Why am I telling this? Because the main source of my reading in the last eight years has been the publications of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I am an avid reader of them and do quite a bit of research.
“In the test that I took, I recognized that many of the answers were found in recent issues of our publications. For example, on science there were questions about fluorocarbons, a subject that had been discussed in Awake! It was similar with questions regarding physics, law and other subjects, including recent news events. Such events had been covered in the ‘Watching the World’ section of Awake! Also, my reading comprehension was exceptionally good.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Similar Content

    • By Jack Ryan
      Amber Scorah is author of the memoir Leaving the Witness. Growing up in the Jehovah's Witness faith, Scorah moved to mainland China to become an underground missionary. In China, she came to question these beliefs and left the religion. Shunned by family and friends as an apostate, Scorah was alone in Shanghai and thrown into a world she had only known from the periphery, with no education or support system. After growing up in the Jehovah's Witness faith, Amber learned Mandarin Chinese and moved to Mainland China to become an underground missionary. In China, encountering a new culture and making friends outside the faith for the first time, Amber came to question the beliefs she had been taught from childhood and ended up leaving the religion. Amber later moved to New York City, where she began a new life. Several years later, her three-month old son died on his first day in childcare. After this tragedy, Amber became a parental leave advocate. Combining forces with a Republican mother, their bipartisan efforts brought the cause of parental leave to the forefront of the 2016 presidential campaign. She was named one of the 100 most influential people in Brooklyn culture by Brooklyn Magazine. Her writing has appeared in The New York Times, The Believer, The Boston Globe, The Cut, The Globe and Mail and USA Today
    • By Jack Ryan
      The Dutch Parliament has accepted a motion in which is called on the Dutch government to ensure proper care and guidance for apostates.
      I wonder how the Dutch governement is going to act on this motion.
      MOTION BY THE MEMBER OF KOOTEN-ARISSEN
      Proposed 26 September 2019
      The Chamber,
      having heard the deliberations,
      noting that people from orthodox religious communities may encounter a great deal of resistance from their environment if they choose to abandon certain precepts or their faith;
      whereas feelings of loneliness, exclusion and sadness for what is lost can cause a grieving process that people need help with;
      whereas feelings of loneliness, exclusion and sorrow for what has been lost can cause a process of mourning, which people need help with;
      calls on the government to ensure proper care and guidance of apostates, and moves on to the order of the day.
      Van Kooten-Arissen
    • By Witness
      Wt. 11/7/15 - “HOW DO FALSE TEACHERS OPERATE? THEIR METHODS REVEAL A CUNNING SPIRIT. APOSTATES “QUIETLY BRING IN” CORRUPTIVE IDEAS. LIKE SMUGGLERS, THEY OPERATE IN A CLANDESTINE MANNER, SUBTLY INTRODUCING APOSTATE VIEWS”.
      It begins benignly, truthfully, like this:
      Wt. 1882, pgs 71-71 – “BEWARE OF ‘ORGANIZATION’. It is wholly unnecessary. The Bible rules will be the only rules you will need. DO NOT SEEK TO BIND OTHERS’ CONSCIENCES, AND DO NOT PERMIT OTHERS TO BIND YOURS. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God’s Word today, and so continue growing in grace and knowledge and love day by day”.
      And escalates into this:
      Wt. 11/15/81 “Make haste to IDENTIFY the visible theocratic ORGANIZATION of God that represents his king, Jesus Christ. IT IS ESSENTIAL FOR LIFE. Doing so, be complete in accepting its every aspect”.
      Wt. 13/11/15 –“ At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from JEHOVAH’S ORGANIZATION may not appear practical from a human standpoint. ALL OF US MUST BE READY TO OBEY any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.”
      Rev 16:13,14:
      “And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth, (the anointed ones Rev 1:5) and of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.”
      We are aware that a fertilized egg of a frog is laid in a mass under water. In a few days, a tadpole is formed, and eventually, the metamorphosis is complete, as a mature frog has developed. Even the diet during this process changes from grasses to meat.
      In the Watchtower, what begins as a scriptural truth, becomes a full-fledged lie, sourced in Satan’s “sea”, that consumes the individual who submits his mind and heart to it. Each beginning of a lie is part of many, that the Watchtower has ‘morphed’ over the years. These teachings have become unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. Rev 13:1,2 (Prov 14:25) 
       
      Again, from the WT 11/7/15:
      “AND JUST AS A CLEVER FORGER TRIES TO PASS PHONY DOCUMENTS, SO APOSTATES USE ‘COUNTERFEIT WORDS’, OR FALSE ARGUMENTS, TRYING TO PASS THEIR FABRICATED VIEWS AS IF THEY WERE TRUE.” 
      Here's an example of a fabricated view:
      Wt. 14/1/15 - “How did Jehovah become King in 1914, and what were some of the Kingdom’s early accomplishments? The subsequent famines, earthquakes, and pestilences as well as the fulfillment of other Bible prophecies proved CONCLUSIVELY that Jesus Christ had begun to rule in heaven as King of God’s Kingdom in 1914. By enthroning his Son as the Messianic King, Jehovah had, indeed, become King in a new sense!” 
      The SYMBOLIC famines, earthquakes, pestilences are the labor pains that PRECEDE the birth of God’s Kingdom. This is the natural order of birth. Luke 21:8,9; Mark 13:8; Ezek 22:28  
       “Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your ]composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a MESSAGE OR A LETTER AS IF FROM US, TO THE EFFECT THAT THE DAY OF THE LORD HAS COME. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.” 2 Thess 2:1-4
      Watchtower continues: 
      “THEY SPREAD 'DECEPTIVE TEACHINGS,' 'TWISTING'...THE SCRIPTURES TO FIT THEIR OWN IDEAS. (2 Pet. 2:1, 3, 13; 3:16)” 
      Twisting the scriptures, and creating new doctrine such as:
      Wt 02/8/1 - “Representing the royal priesthood are appointed elders, who serve in positions of responsibility in congregations of Jehovah’s people around the earth. These men deserve our respect and wholehearted support, whether they are of the anointed or not. Why? Because, through his holy spirit, Jehovah has appointed the older men to their positions. Hebrews 13:7,17" 
      JWs, go back to the scriptures to find the truth:
      Num 18:7 - “But you and your sons will carry out your priestly responsibilities for everything concerning the altar and for what is inside the veil, and you will do that work. I am giving you the work of the priesthood as a gift, BUT AN UNAUTHORIZED PERSON WHO COMES NEAR THE SANCTUARY WILL BE PUT TO DEATH."
       Who are the Temple sanctuary?  1 Cor 3:16,17; 1 Pet 2:5,9; 2Chron.13:9; Ezek 22:26;Eze.44:6,7,8,9; 2Thess.2:4; Dan.11:31; Matt.24:15; Rev 11:1,2
      “CLEARLY, APOSTATES DO NOT HAVE OUR BEST INTERESTS AT HEART. FOLLOWING THEM WOULD DIVERT US FROM THE ROAD THAT LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE”. 
      Shepherd the Flock book, page 65 (the previous version) – 
      “Apostasy is a standing away from true worship, a falling away, defection, rebellion.”
      It includes: 
      “Deliberately spreading teachings contrary to bible truth…
      AS TAUGHT BY JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES”
       
       
      Pearl Doxsey, 4womaninthewilderness blogspot
      “The Kingdom—1914?”
      “The Sign of the End”
       
       
    • By Jack Ryan
      Here is the quote from Jehovah's Witnesses calling former members "mentally diseased"

      https://www.jw.borg/en/publications/magazines/ws20110715/Will-You-Pay-Attention-to-Jehovahs-Clear-Warnings/#?insight[search_id]=11735035-7186-4c2a-bcfd-283925a24106&insight[search_result_index]=0
       
      Where in the scripture does it say that apostates are mentally diseased? I guess that's just their translation.
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      The invasion of the mentally ill professional apostates is repeated again, at a Kingdom Hall in full meeting. Once the prayer is over, an invader gets on the stage and the ushers are forced to lower it. But among the attendees there are more apostates, including the one who is recording the video. They almost have to be forcibly evicted because they are reluctant to leave  while criticizing the organization. They gather at the door while the brothers prevent them from entering again and call the police. The arrival of the police causes some to run away, and the agent takes data from those who bother a private meeting. Let's take note of the scene that will surely be repeated in many  countries.
       
    • By Jack Ryan
      I see more and more stories about this woman Barbara Anderson
      What exactly did she do at Bethel? Does she have an interesting story?
    • By Jack Ryan
      bh chap. 11 pp. 110-112 pars. 12-15 - Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever....student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. What should the teacher do?....suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem...he knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class....consider two things that the teacher in our illustration would not do............he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case.
  • Forum Statistics

    61,565
    Total Topics
    113,563
    Total Posts
  • Member Statistics

    16,488
    Total Members
    1,592
    Most Online
    Robert Cumulus
    Newest Member
    Robert Cumulus
    Joined




  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Uh oh. You are reacting (and I thank you) to my Dawkins post on the wrong thread. Be prepared for an onslaught from @AlanF about how STUPID you are!   He is not the same—JTR is an absolute saint by comparison—but I used to occasionally include off-color words in my posts just to see him, who could launch the nastiest and crudest of tirades, get all bent out of shape that I has said a naughty word.
    • Why I enjoyed your piece : it cclearly identifies the cantankerous way all darwinists act...... the religion seems to affect them this way.   Mr Dawkins has embarrassed himself quite a lot since he became a celebrity for the cause......  I think the best video I saw of him is when he said that aliens seeded the earth. ..... in a discussion on the origins of life. ..
    • Loved your contribution above.  The propaganda regarding the  "religion of peace" hides its extreme and barbaric violence.  True, JWs are the true religion of peace for refusing any political division in our ranks (not taking sides) or going to war to fight any of this system's battles. It is encouraging to be able to identify this nation on earth. I studied the "religion of peace" ...... most people in UK call it by this name now because one can get 2 years in prison for islamaphobia.  One can mock a Christian, burn the bible, call jesus an adulterer and make funny pictures of him but do NOT hint at  anything against the "religion of peace".  Oh-  I am comparing the injustice of the world in its bias treatment of JWs again in OCD way...... that will trigger Mr. JAH2......
    • This is not technically true. Admittedly, there was much opinion, but there was also at least one bit of solid information content: It would be very hard to dispute with that one.
    • I think a lot of people suspected that pretty quickly, especially as their top 3 issues appear to be the same, and as time goes on, even their pet peeves match up. I don't know for sure that JB was "DF'd" from the site, but it's the impression I got because there was some kind of warning, and then he was gone. At this point if they are the same, I don't think it matters in the slightest. But the reason I jump in on this topic is because I don't want anyone to be confused with my use of the term DF.  According to JB, he was treated as if DF'd in his congregation, even though he was not officially DF'd by a committee of elders. Not all of the reasons for this treatment were clear. Now that you have suspected that 4Jah2me was DF'd, I just figured that the JB story ought to be a reminder that it's always possible 4Jah2me was never DF'd either. 
    • Tweeted Richard Dawkins one fine day (11/13/19): “You could easily spot any Religion of Peace. Its extremist members would be extremely peaceful”  Can it be? Is Richard Dawkins referring to Jehovah’s Witnesses—universally known for being “extremely peaceful” yet declared “extremists” in Russia? If so, I will take back the relatively few bad things I have said about him. I have not really said THAT many bad things about him. At times, I have even been complimentary. When he blessed the atheist buses rolling out in London, I said that he raised a good point—his was a reaction to existing “hellfire’ buses, with advertising from the church. He did wuss-out, though, with a: “There probably is no God.” Probably? It wasn’t until I began following him on Twitter, though, that I noticed how breathtakingly contemptuous he was toward anyone who disagreed with him—not merely about God, but also on geopolitical things—and then I did say a few mean things. For example, I said of him that “he does not suffer fools gladly, and a fool is anyone who disagrees with him.” However, he has largely repented over this online meanness. I’ve noticed it over the months. He has not banished it entirely, but it is much less prevalent, so that I regret that I ever said what I did.  The temptation to be disdainful of opponents is well-nigh irresistible, particularly if you think that they are willfully choosing ignorance. I have (more or less) mastered the temptation, of course, but I have a source of effective and unending counsel that he does not. This is no more concisely stated than it was at a recent Watchtower Study. A Bible verse considered how we ought “do nothing out of contentiousness or out of egotism, but with humility consider others superior to you.” (Philippians 2:3) Practically speaking, this advice is not easy to implement. It may even strike one as nonsensical—how can everyone be superior to everyone else? Said that Watchtower: “The humble person acknowledges that everyone is superior to him in some way.—Phil. 2:3, 4.”  Of course. In some way everyone is superior to everyone else. Search for that way, hone in on it like a laser beam, and it will not be so difficult to treat even opponents with respect. “Disagree without being disagreeable” is the catchphrase today. But Professor Dawkins does not have this advantage. Much of his tradition would sway him in just the opposite “survival of the fittest” direction. So he must be given credit for his new, somewhat softer, online personality. Possibly someone who has his best interests at heart—perhaps his wife—said, “Richard, you sure do come across as a cantankerous crank on Twitter,” and he deliberately walked it back. It’s commendable. Now, I don’t think Richard had Jehovah’s Witnesses in mind with his tweet. He probably has formed his views of them through the contributions of their “apostate” contingent, and those views could hardly be blacker. I looked down among his comments to see whether any of those nasties had reared their heads. Perhaps here was an example: “Not entirely true. Extremists usually have their own misinterpretation of scriptures.” I responded to this one: “If “misinterpretation” results in a religion of peace, perhaps it is not a misinterpretation after all. Perhaps the mainline view is a misinterpretation.” Is that not a no-brainer?  Another one, disagreeing with the above tweet: “Actually no. Most extremists do exactly what is written in their book. ‘Misinterpretation’ is used as an argument by believers that cherry pick morals that fit our secular ethics today.” I know this type, too. This is the type that finds slavery in the Bible or war in the Old Testament and rails at the “hypocrisy.” I responded to this fellow as well: “Everything has a historical context and to deliberately ignore such context is to be intellectually dishonest. If our side does it to theirs, we never hear the end of it.” He blew up at this reference to context. Evil is evil, he carried on, across all places and time-frames. These characters are very predictable—you could even write their lines for them and not be too far off. Has “critical thinking” made us all nincompoops? It was once thought the most intelligent thing in the world to consider historical backdrop; one was irresponsible, even deceitful, not to do it. Very well. If he is going to trash, with blinders affixed, the source that I hold dear, I will do the same with his source: “You should turn your critical thinking skills upon Ancient Greece, the definer of it. When time travel is invented, history revisionists will give a friendly wave to American slaveholding forefathers as they race back in time to fetch wicked Greek pedophiles—it was an enshrined value of that world—back in irons.” He was not chastened by this. Hijacking Twitter as his personal courtroom, he cross-examined: “Is the holding and beating of slaves, as described in Exodus, morally acceptable? Yes or no?” I countered: “Is the raping of children as endorsed by Ancient Greek society morally acceptable? Yes or no?” Incredibly, he was not dissuaded. “Last chance!” he shot back. “Is the holding and beating of slaves, as described in Exodus, morally acceptable? Yes or no?” “To the blockheads, I became a blockhead.”—Paul (sort of) —1 Corinthians 9:19-22,” I tweeted back: “Two can play the game of obstinacy. Last chance: Is the rape of children—it was enshrined in Ancient Greek society—morally acceptable? Yes or no?” Then I went away, and when I came back, he had deleted all this tweets so that it was hard for me to reconstruct the thread. However, someone else had pointed out a grave sin I had committed: “Thomas you are guilty of the moral equivalence fallacy.” Am I? I suppose. You can sort of guess by the wording just what that phrase means—I had not heard it before. At least it is in English. I once heard a theologian quip that if there is a Latin phrase and a perfectly clear English phrase that means the same thing, always use the Latin phrase so people will know that you are educated. But my “moral equivalence fallacy” is still is no more than considering historical context, a praiseworthy intellectual technique for all time periods except ours.  Besides, I actually had posted something about slavery long ago. But it is not a topic so simple that it can be hashed out in a few tweets, and so I declined to go there with this fellow, who would debate all the sub-points. If God corrected every human injustice the moment it manifested itself, there would be nothing left. The entire premise of the Bible is that human-rule is unjust in itself and that God allows a period of time for that to be clearly manifested before bringing in his kingdom—the one referred to in the “Lord’s prayer”—to straighten it all out. In the meantime, the very ones who work themselves into a lather at religion “brainwashing” people are livid that God did not brainwash slavery away once humans settled upon it as a fine economic underpinning. If Dawkins’s tweet and my response hangs around long enough before burial in the Twitter feed, I would expect some of our malcontents to observe as they did in Russia, where the only evidence of extremism cited is proclaiming “a religious view of supremacy.” Huge protest will come at how Jehovah’s Witnesses practice shunning and thus “destroy” relationships and even family. But views inevitably translate into consequences and policies. Refusal to “come together” with those who insist on diametrically opposed views is hardly the “extremism” of ISIS—and yet the Russian Supreme Court has declared that it is, with the full backing in principle of those from the ex-JW community—the ones who go crusading, which is perhaps 10%. I’m going to write this up as a post and append it to his thread. Let’s see what happens. Probably nothing, but you never know. Plus, let’s expand on that particular Watchtower some more. The particular article covered was entitled: “Jehovah Values His Humble Servants” (September 2019 issue—study edition) Unlike nearly all religious services, Witness meetings are ones that you can prepare for. You can comment during them. They are studies of the sacred book, not just impromptu rap sessions, acquiescencing to ceremony, or sitting through someone else’s sermon. You can prepare for them, and you are benefited, as in any classroom, when you do. The focus here, as it so often is, is on practical application.  Humility draws persons to us. Haughtiness repels them, and thus makes next to impossible the mantra to “come together.” My own comment, when the time was right, was that haughty people can only accomplish so much—it may be a great deal, for haughty people are often very capable people—but eventually they run up against the fact that nobody else can stand them, and so people are motivated to undercut their ideas, even if they are good ones, out of sheer payback for ugliness. Humble people, on the other hand, may be far less capable individually, but their efforts add up. They know how to cooperate and yield to each other in a way that haughty people do not. Someone else on that Dawkins thread, an amateur wit, played with that them of unlikely extremists: “Jehova's witnesses are peaceful but their extremists are better extremely annoying...” Why fight this? It is a viewpoint. Viewpoints are not wrong, because they are viewpoints—right or wrong doesn’t enter into the equation. Better to roll with it. I was indeed on a roll, and so I tweeted back:  “I will grant that they can be. Still, if you had a choice between a team of JWs approaching your door and a team of ISIS members, you would (hopefully) choose theformer. Those 2 groups, and only those 2 groups are officially declared “extremist” in Russia.” And with that, I included a link to my ebook, “Dear Mr. Putin - Jehovah’s Witnesses Write Russia.” I am shameless in that. No matter how many books I sell, it is not enough. I don’t sell them, anyway. The book is free, a labor of love. It is an application of the theme: “If you have something important to say, don’t hide it behind a paywall.” It is the only, to my knowledge, complete history of events leading up to and beyond the 2017 ban of the Witness organization in Russia. As to the latest developments there, another one was herded off to prison, who, making the best of a sour situation, or perhaps genuinely finding value there, said: "I want to thank … prosecution. I don't just thank you, but thank you very much, because thanks to you my faith has become stronger … I see I'm on the right path." Of course. It is unreasonable to oppose so vehemently a people totally honest, hard-working, and given to peace—and yet the Bible says that such will exactly happen. How can it not serve to strengthen faith?
    • According to scientific knowledge, the entire universe is in two states every day: something becomes and something disappears. Life on Earth is in the same status. I am disappointed with suffer of creatures on Earth, too. And can't connect with "my picture" of God as i accepted through JW Bible interpretations and my own interpretations, then and now. What if we made wrong pictures about Creator? .... based on wrong or failed text? 
  • Popular Now

  • Recently Browsing

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Who's Online (See full list)

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.