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18 hours ago, Outta Here said:

"Better use of dedicated funds" is a phrase I hear frequently. Isn't that more appropriate? "Saving" money implies hoarding it up somewhere. I think we are more in the business of using resources aren't we?. Compare Matt.25:24-27 😊

Yes, that is better put, and I have heard brothers say this. Of course we aren't going to hoard any money because we know what the scriptures say about that. But that wasn't really what I was talking about. It was more to do with it being Jehovah's direction. But then JWI will probably remind me that since we are a faith based organization, then anything we do will ultimately be seen as God's direction, even if something isn't.. I don't really have a problem with that. What I don't like seeing is this being used as some kind of tool to make people acquiesce, or as a kind of passive aggressive manipulation by some, or as a cause for being judgemental. ie. If you don't obey, you must be less spiritual than me. With so many unbalanced individuals around, this could cause unnecessary stress I think. What I'm trying to say is I would prefer if it was presented as it really is: a sound financial decision which "makes better use of donated funds" and in order for it to work, your cooperation and support is needed and appreciated, and thank you.  🙂

14 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Because it's a mind controlling technique to brainwash you into believing that the governing body is Jehovah.

That’s not what I had in mind. In fact every Witness knows that the GB is not Jehovah. But they also know that the Bible talks about obeying those taking the lead, i.e. the elders in a congregation which includes members of the GB since they are also elders. Do you have something against that scripture?

14 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

It is good that you are questioning their tactics.

I don't need your approval 🙂

 

 

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1 hour ago, Anna said:

going to hoard any money

I think a person should put money away for certain projects. We know that most projects go over the projected budget because of inflation, unexpected problems, rising costs, etc.. So a discreet person that is busy with a large project will put away money where it can gather interest until it is needed.  The GB is often involved in large projects- they would not be smart to not factor this in.

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

think that here in the UK half of every congregation is old peopl

Yes, less and less are looking to God for solutions. Wicca, Islam and atheism taking over....... but I suspect that many more honest-hearted people will find the truth when one world religion (Satans's moral standards)  is forced on all of us.

How far Agenda 21 and Agenda 2030 of the UN will get  one cannot tell........ but it will improve public transport exponentially. 

"On every corner like gas stations" ...... or on every corner a "different designer church."  When I lived in USA it was a joke to me how many churches there were catering for the different groups of peoples and their desires.

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

I think a person should put money away for certain projects. We know that most projects go over the projected budget because of inflation, unexpected problems, rising costs, etc.. So a discreet person that is busy with a large project will put away money where it can gather interest until it is needed.  The GB is often involved in large projects- they would not be smart to not factor this in.

The ONLY environment I know of where it would be smart NOT to factor this in is religion, where apparently contributed money NEVER stops flowing in, like a Japanese Tsunami.

Double negatives make my head hurt!

dt150127.gif

It appears that Kingdom Halls, like old people, and radioactive materials, have a "half life".

I am 73, so statistically, half of people my age will be dead in 10 years. At 83, half of those people will be dead in ten years.

Then it speeds up.

At the end, I hope to read about it on the Internet .... BECAUSE ... I read FOXNEWS, and not CNN.

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On 11/11/2019 at 5:15 AM, Outta Here said:

"Better use of dedicated funds" is a phrase I hear frequently. Isn't that more appropriate? "Saving" money implies hoarding it up somewhere. I think we are more in the business of using resources aren't we?. Compare Matt.25:24-27 😊

They should definitely be always finding better ways to use dedicated funds. I agree. But I never thought that doing something because it "saves money" implies hoarding money up somewhere. When the GB and accounting offices at Bethel have announced cost-cutting measures, they are saying that it "saves" money to be used elsewhere. When they have announced that money coming in isn't keeping up with money going out, they are definitely not in a position to hoard money.

But I have never had the impression, as Anna has, that they are completely hiding this idea of needing to find new ways to save money. It also seems like a bit of a sacrifice for some of us in more affluent countries is helping to fund new and better Kingdom Halls in countries where the Kingdom Halls are in need of repair. I also think that some funds had been put into several translation offices which has obviously paid good dividends in terms of results.

I don't know if I mentioned it before, but because of my son's work project in Anguilla, I have been going there just about every year for a few years now, and last year spent a week of the time in St. Maarten, where most jets land, because Anguilla's airport is so small. The Kingdom Halls in St. Maarten were still in terrible shape even after some remodeling and rebuilding, and I was surprised at this. I saw one on the French side of the island, too, in bad shape. The brothers told me that it's not good to build something that looks so much nicer than the neighborhood around you. Perhaps Melinda knows if this is typical in the Caribbean.

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

But I have never had the impression, as Anna has, that they are completely hiding this idea of needing to find new ways to save money

I don't think they're hiding that we need money, (periodic reminders of how much things cost). I just think that sometimes creating new ways of saving money is put forward as a spiritual benefit, rather than what it is, a financial benefit. There's a rumour going round where I live that 25 elders have been demoted because they wouldn't cooperate with the arrangement. I wonder what was on the elders minds? The spiritual benefit, or the financial?

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

The brothers told me that it's not good to build something that looks so much nicer than the neighborhood around you.

Interesting

@JW Insider let me illustrate what I mean, I have mentioned this on here before. After the fall of communism the brothers of one small town in Europe got together and with their own hands and own resources built a beautiful Kingdom Hall. The congregation was thriving well for the next 30 years. Then two years ago, one night at the midweek meeting, it was announced that the KH would be put on the market. No one knew anything about it and it came as a shock. There was a lot of upset, not only about the KH but also about the logistical aspects. There were many old timers there, who did not drive, and relied on the friends in the town to swing by and pick them up for the meeting. Now, the KH everyone was assigned to was 1 hour away.....

This is not an isolated case. I have heard of many other cases similar to this here in the US. We just had a married couple move into our hall for the same reason. They were given a choice where they wanted to go, but every KH was 2 hrs away, so they moved into our territory. It wasn't too much trouble for them as they are a young couple and both pioneers. Not so sure what the older ones did....by the way, the territory this pioneer couple lived in was very country. I guess now it will become one of those once a year worked territories.

PS. I wanted this last bit to be separate, but it still got merged with the previous reply...

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37 minutes ago, Anna said:

rumor where I live that 25 elders have been demoted because they wouldn't cooperate with the arrangement.

Don't know if it's related, but I heard of a lawsuit or two where a Hall and property were just recently remodeled and spiffed up to be worth, 3 million, for example, but the Society was so anxious to cover financial expenses that they forced a quick sale for only one million, and now the congregations are separated to various Halls, not-so-nearby. A brother was removed because he wanted to raise this into a financial issue. But there might also be a kind of problem showing up that some get too attached to the properties that they have helped to find and fund. (Like a rich person that donates a lot for a church, or buys a pew to get his name on it.)

As you say, I'm not sure that each of these cases has been handled with proper communication. Also, I'm not sure the term 'financial benefit' is fully appropriate either. In some cases the impression was 'financial necessity.' I heard talk of financial instruments (bank loans) that would have been embarrassing not to be able to meet. The Catholic church is not afraid to announce that they have had a diocese here and there on the verge of bankruptcy, which is sometimes really no more than loan restructuring. But I don't think anyone is ready for terms like this to be used about us, yet I believe that there was a real concern about one such loan. If it becomes public elsewhere, I will post some of the information I base this idea on. If not, consider it just unsubstantiated rumor. Not worth repeating.

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2 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The Catholic church is not afraid to announce that they have had a diocese here and there on the verge of bankruptcy, which is sometimes really no more than loan restructuring. But I don't think anyone is ready for terms like this to be used about us,

Well that is what I had in mind. I agree, we are not ready to have terms like this applied to us. That is why I think that kind of situation is "glossed over" with other terms, such as "Jehovah is guiding this" and "it's for our spiritual benefit to cooperate".

On the other hand, to be fair, I bumped into a couple of single sisters from said KH and they seemed to be pretty happy in their new one. But who knows what the reason is....new hunting grounds perhaps? 😀

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    • Quote @b4ucuhear " For example, we realized that the “superior authorities” mentioned in Romans 13:1 are, not Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, but the political rulers " BUT the original teaching by the Bible Students was that the 'superior authorities' was the political rulers. It was fully understood in the first place. So, why was false reasoning used to give false teaching ? Obviously no Holy Spirit involved there. So you cannot say that it was new light or better understanding when it was originally known anyway 
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    • From '66 WT: (Just to throw something else into the mix as to the original post) "Questions From Readers ● At times there are changes in viewpoint on Biblical subjects discussed in the Watch Tower Society’s publications. We speak of what we believe as “the truth.” But does “truth” change?—W. P., U.S.A. Really it is the Bible that speaks of beliefs that are in harmony with the Scriptures as “the truth.” At 2 Peter 2:2 the worship based on such beliefs is termed “the way of the truth.” Yet concerning that “way of the truth” we read at Proverbs 4:18: “The path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.” So we do not know all there is to know. In fact, even when the post-Armageddon system of things is ushered in we will not know everything. Throughout all eternity there will always be more to learn. This is indicated by what the apostle Paul wrote in Romans 11:33: “O the depth of God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How unsearchable his judgments are and past tracing out his ways are!” It is to be expected, then, that at times there may be changes in viewpoint. Our basic belief may be sound Scriptural truth, but there may be some details that we did not fully understand in the past. In time, with the aid of Jehovah’s spirit, we get those matters cleared up. For example, a few years ago we had a fine series of articles in The Watchtower on the “superior authorities.” (Issues of November 1–December 1, 1962) Before those articles were published, we knew and taught that Jehovah is the Most High, and that Jesus Christ is the second to Him in power and authority. We knew that we should be law-abiding persons, but that, when there was a conflict between man’s law and that of God, we would obey God as ruler rather than men. 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But they were setting aside the truth that Jesus had taught. Likewise in Christendom there have been changes in viewpoint; but they are rejecting the Bible as myth and setting aside its moral code as out-of-date. What a tremendous difference between what is taking place among them and what Jehovah is doing for his people in order to bring our thinking even more closely in line with his inspired Word of truth!" As stated above: "Our basic belief may be sound Scriptural truth, but there may be some details that we did not fully understand in the past. In time, with the aid of Jehovah’s spirit, we get those matters cleared up." I'm hoping we get more away from claiming some human ideas/dates (that go beyond the things written), as divine revelations/new light from God. I believe we are getting there, which is a far cry from what established Christendom  accepts: i.e.. thinking in war God blesses one side over the other of nations in Satan's system; that God has people tortured for all eternity in a fiery hell; there is no real need of a resurrection since all humans have an immortal soul that automatically goes to heaven of Hell when they die; Trinity...and on it goes. Nor do JW's claim infallibility as hundreds of millions believe of the Pope and similar views (although not official) to protestant leaders as well. Yes, I do believe we have a lot to work on, but I don't see any other religions offered on this site by the "nay-sayers" as a better alternative. And even if they don't believe other religions have the truth either, having their own viewpoints, they might as well be a religion unto themselves - an army of one - since even among themselves they don't see eye-to-eye on everything either. 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