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6 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

Interesting opinions on a subject those who wrote these pieces weren’t that familiar with scripture. I guess they just needed fillers.

Should anyone calling themselves Christian go against Jesus works just to satisfy their own ambition?

Sir, surely you know that God’s Word does not adhere to folly; but rather, condemns it. 

Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
    or you yourself will be just like him.  Prov 26:4

I saw that wisdom is better than folly, just as light is better than darkness.  Eccl 2:13

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.  Eph 5:11

Then the Lord said, “These prophets are telling lies in my name. I did not send them or tell them to speak. I did not give them any messages. They prophesy of visions and revelations they have never seen or heard. They speak foolishness made up in their own lying hearts.  Jer 14:14

 

 

 

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@TrueTomHarley Unfortunately some forget that imperfect man can err and or just simply ignore the fact to make a lowkey not as educated statement.

What I do find ironic is that someone people don't agree with a lot of the opposers and even some of them are against one another. 

Annnnnnd there are those who don't understand what "Christian" means too jajaja.

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21 hours ago, divergenceKO said:
On 9/27/2019 at 10:30 PM, Witness said:

The interview with J.F. Rutherford that appeared
in the San Diego Sun, March 15, 1930

Interesting opinions on a subject those who wrote these pieces weren’t that familiar with scripture.

I think how we don't need to have high expectations from San Diego Sun reporter to be "familiar" with Scripture. But that is of no surprise, because Judge Rutherford showed lack of "familiarity" with Scripture too, when he made plans to build Beth-Sarim.

"He that speaketh evil of his brother, judgeth his brother; speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law" - James 4

I would go a little further with meaning of this verse you used, and not with obvious verbatim understanding about "not judging other people". Wording "The Law" have wider meaning and not just God's command about what is forbidden and what is allowed to do. "The Law" is in fact entire content of Bible in which is reflection of God's thoughts, wisdom, prophets, lessons, His will, past and future. 

In that context of wider picture about Word He gave in Bible, i would say how misinterpretation made by anyone, or in this example by WT Society, and particularly by 3rd President of WT, "Judge Rutherford", who gave wrong meaning to Bible verses, we see how he has done exactly what you emphasized is bad. Judge Rutherford is that one who "judged the law" with his absolutely false proclamation (if you want, read this as apostate or perhaps demonic inspired revelation) about "Ancient Princes" who will soon be resurrected and come to be his guest in Beth-Sarim. What is the point:

1)  he "judged the law" by giving false meaning to words of God.

2)  he (and other under his influence) "judged his brothers" who were not accepted his teachings, in that period.  

Conclusion we can make today is similar. If GB "judging the law" with error, wrong, false interpretations and "judge you" if you are not willing to accept such ideology, than we have clear picture of  modern fulfillment on James 4. :))

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4 hours ago, Equivocation said:

Unfortunately some forget that imperfect man can err and or just simply ignore the fact to make a lowkey not as educated statement.

Would you call this an “educated statement”?

On 9/27/2019 at 1:30 PM, Witness said:

The seven famous men will not have long to rest at their San Diego estate because they soon will lead the forces of the Lord to vanquish the minions of Satan at the battle of Armageddon, Rutherford believed. 'But they will win out. The Lord will punish the devil and will show that the preachers and the politicians have been giving the people false counsel,' Rutherford said confidently.

We’re talking about a religious leader of “Israel”, who is to represent God in truth.  JWs were to respect this individual, as well as his teachings.  Are you saying man’s word trumps God’s word?  When does God’s word trump man’s?  When a church in “Christendom” utters a prophesy that fails to come true?

Although you believe all the historical failed doctrine are errors that are to be forgiven, God’s word takes a different view when it comes to His people.

But any prophet who falsely claims to speak in My name or who speaks in the name of another god must die.’

21 “But you may wonder, ‘How will we know whether or not a prophecy is from the Lord?’ 22 If the prophet speaks in the Lord’s name but His prediction does not happen or come true, you will know that the Lord did not give that message. That prophet has spoken without My authority and need not be feared.  Deut 18:20-22

Jehovah’s Witnesses have joined this list:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfulfilled_Christian_religious_predictions

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On 9/27/2019 at 10:47 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

trivial pursuit.

Full justice in this world is not possible. And those who feel entitled to wrongdoing and still be accepted as brothers will be the first to cry "injustice".  

Thanks to Jehovah,  in his wisdom he will be the final judge and compensator.  If you were really treated unfairly - he will compensate you - that is if you really believe he exists and is the rewarder of unselfish suffering.  

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On 9/28/2019 at 12:30 AM, Witness said:

As my rather frank mother would have said, “the guy is a crackpot”.   

I just don't get people who quote things out of historical context and evaluate it by today's modern standards.  It is a bending of the truth.

If I quote Franklin, Wilson, Rooseveldt out of historical context then people will call me a bender of historical context.

By today's standards a "scholar" that evaluates quotes out of historical context is also a  crackpot.

Most people in USA in this time did not even think of giving black people human rights..... and there are so many other things I can mention...... that were totally different in society then - so please get real. ...... 

 

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38 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I just don't get people who quote things out of historical context and evaluate it by today's modern standards.  It is a bending of the truth.

Do you have proof that the articles quoted are out of historical context?  What about the Proclaimer's Book that I quoted?  Was that not enough historical context for you?    Or, is the truth of the matter, bothersome?  Does it change the perspective that Rutherford was a false prophet per God's ancient words spelled out in the Bible?  It appears that God's  words on identifying false prophets, as well as Jesus' warnings about them, have been taken out of context by you, and the organization; and evaluated by their "today's modern standards".  

Perhaps, it is time for JWs to get real and look at their history,  square in the face, and stop making excuses for false, failed, prophesy  and changed teachings, that have paved their road and reputation as an organization.  

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Considering that my mother was a young adult when Rutherford built his "monument", the term "crackpot", (correctly spelled with a hyphen)  was well in use; and, if she did hear of his folly, she most certainly would have used the term, "crack-pot" during that day.  Her mother had a full library of Rutherford's publications, only because she took pity on the Bible Students and bought whatever they were peddling at the moment.    Did my mother have the full historical context of the era?  She may have, with such a library at her fingertips.   

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On 10/2/2019 at 4:53 AM, Witness said:

articles

Yes- you are judging historical sayings it by modern standards and expect perfection. 

All I know is there is no other religion teaching the name of Jehovah all over the earth.

Other Christian denominations believe in the immortality of the soul and believe that Jesus did not put his soul in death (Isaiah 53) . Hence they really do not believe that Jesus really died for all......and only after death  Jesus received immortality as a reward for his faithfulness to his father.

They do not understand that the kingdom will be a real government which will restore the earth......and we should be politically neutral. Most Christian's are quick to vote and grab their guns.... There are tons of other basic teachings which only JWs teach which are crucial to have a good understanding of what God and jesus did for us, so we can build a good relationship with God.  Thanks to the continued preaching efforts of JWs, I learnt the TRUTH.

Whatever the human flaws of our brothers 80 years ago or even 100 years ago, I always remember that Jehovah used Israel in his purpose and they were for sure also a bunch of imperfect men....... why ..... groups of men constantly thought they were better than Moses - and paid the penalty...... similar to what you are constantly doing.  

Moses did not realize that his son should have been circumcised - his wife saved the son's life.  Moses did not know all even though he was the mediator of the new covenant and went into the mountain.  He came back with his face shining, saw the glory of Jehovah as transmitted by angels.  He was also flawed and made mistakes...... 

You only focus on the mistakes and not the undeniable  truths that are taught by JWs. You use the bible and history as a misleading weapon.  I have seen your writings...... you do not fool me.  Nothing honest there but an accuser of our brothers day and night.   

 

 

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    • I think a lot of people suspected that pretty quickly, especially as their top 3 issues appear to be the same, and as time goes on, even their pet peeves match up. I don't know for sure that JB was "DF'd" from the site, but it's the impression I got because there was some kind of warning, and then he was gone. At this point if they are the same, I don't think it matters in the slightest. But the reason I jump in on this topic is because I don't want anyone to be confused with my use of the term DF.  According to JB, he was treated as if DF'd in his congregation, even though he was not officially DF'd by a committee of elders. Not all of the reasons for this treatment were clear. Now that you have suspected that 4Jah2me was DF'd, I just figured that the JB story ought to be a reminder that it's always possible 4Jah2me was never DF'd either. 
    • Tweeted Richard Dawkins one fine day (11/13/19): “You could easily spot any Religion of Peace. Its extremist members would be extremely peaceful”  Can it be? Is Richard Dawkins referring to Jehovah’s Witnesses—universally known for being “extremely peaceful” yet declared “extremists” in Russia? If so, I will take back the relatively few bad things I have said about him. I have not really said THAT many bad things about him. At times, I have even been complimentary. When he blessed the atheist buses rolling out in London, I said that he raised a good point—his was a reaction to existing “hellfire’ buses, with advertising from the church. He did wuss-out, though, with a: “There probably is no God.” Probably? It wasn’t until I began following him on Twitter, though, that I noticed how breathtakingly contemptuous he was toward anyone who disagreed with him—not merely about God, but also on geopolitical things—and then I did say a few mean things. For example, I said of him that “he does not suffer fools gladly, and a fool is anyone who disagrees with him.” However, he has largely repented over this online meanness. I’ve noticed it over the months. He has not banished it entirely, but it is much less prevalent, so that I regret that I ever said what I did.  The temptation to be disdainful of opponents is well-nigh irresistible, particularly if you think that they are willfully choosing ignorance. I have (more or less) mastered the temptation, of course, but I have a source of effective and unending counsel that he does not. This is no more concisely stated than it was at a recent Watchtower Study. A Bible verse considered how we ought “do nothing out of contentiousness or out of egotism, but with humility consider others superior to you.” (Philippians 2:3) Practically speaking, this advice is not easy to implement. It may even strike one as nonsensical—how can everyone be superior to everyone else? Said that Watchtower: “The humble person acknowledges that everyone is superior to him in some way.—Phil. 2:3, 4.”  Of course. In some way everyone is superior to everyone else. Search for that way, hone in on it like a laser beam, and it will not be so difficult to treat even opponents with respect. “Disagree without being disagreeable” is the catchphrase today. But Professor Dawkins does not have this advantage. Much of his tradition would sway him in just the opposite “survival of the fittest” direction. So he must be given credit for his new, somewhat softer, online personality. Possibly someone who has his best interests at heart—perhaps his wife—said, “Richard, you sure do come across as a cantankerous crank on Twitter,” and he deliberately walked it back. It’s commendable. Now, I don’t think Richard had Jehovah’s Witnesses in mind with his tweet. He probably has formed his views of them through the contributions of their “apostate” contingent, and those views could hardly be blacker. I looked down among his comments to see whether any of those nasties had reared their heads. Perhaps here was an example: “Not entirely true. Extremists usually have their own misinterpretation of scriptures.” I responded to this one: “If “misinterpretation” results in a religion of peace, perhaps it is not a misinterpretation after all. Perhaps the mainline view is a misinterpretation.” Is that not a no-brainer?  Another one, disagreeing with the above tweet: “Actually no. Most extremists do exactly what is written in their book. ‘Misinterpretation’ is used as an argument by believers that cherry pick morals that fit our secular ethics today.” I know this type, too. 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When time travel is invented, history revisionists will give a friendly wave to American slaveholding forefathers as they race back in time to fetch wicked Greek pedophiles—it was an enshrined value of that world—back in irons.” He was not chastened by this. Hijacking Twitter as his personal courtroom, he cross-examined: “Is the holding and beating of slaves, as described in Exodus, morally acceptable? Yes or no?” I countered: “Is the raping of children as endorsed by Ancient Greek society morally acceptable? Yes or no?” Incredibly, he was not dissuaded. “Last chance!” he shot back. “Is the holding and beating of slaves, as described in Exodus, morally acceptable? Yes or no?” “To the blockheads, I became a blockhead.”—Paul (sort of) —1 Corinthians 9:19-22,” I tweeted back: “Two can play the game of obstinacy. Last chance: Is the rape of children—it was enshrined in Ancient Greek society—morally acceptable? Yes or no?” Then I went away, and when I came back, he had deleted all this tweets so that it was hard for me to reconstruct the thread. However, someone else had pointed out a grave sin I had committed: “Thomas you are guilty of the moral equivalence fallacy.” Am I? I suppose. You can sort of guess by the wording just what that phrase means—I had not heard it before. At least it is in English. I once heard a theologian quip that if there is a Latin phrase and a perfectly clear English phrase that means the same thing, always use the Latin phrase so people will know that you are educated. But my “moral equivalence fallacy” is still is no more than considering historical context, a praiseworthy intellectual technique for all time periods except ours.  Besides, I actually had posted something about slavery long ago. But it is not a topic so simple that it can be hashed out in a few tweets, and so I declined to go there with this fellow, who would debate all the sub-points. 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Refusal to “come together” with those who insist on diametrically opposed views is hardly the “extremism” of ISIS—and yet the Russian Supreme Court has declared that it is, with the full backing in principle of those from the ex-JW community—the ones who go crusading, which is perhaps 10%. I’m going to write this up as a post and append it to his thread. Let’s see what happens. Probably nothing, but you never know. Plus, let’s expand on that particular Watchtower some more. The particular article covered was entitled: “Jehovah Values His Humble Servants” (September 2019 issue—study edition) Unlike nearly all religious services, Witness meetings are ones that you can prepare for. You can comment during them. They are studies of the sacred book, not just impromptu rap sessions, acquiescencing to ceremony, or sitting through someone else’s sermon. You can prepare for them, and you are benefited, as in any classroom, when you do. The focus here, as it so often is, is on practical application.  Humility draws persons to us. Haughtiness repels them, and thus makes next to impossible the mantra to “come together.” My own comment, when the time was right, was that haughty people can only accomplish so much—it may be a great deal, for haughty people are often very capable people—but eventually they run up against the fact that nobody else can stand them, and so people are motivated to undercut their ideas, even if they are good ones, out of sheer payback for ugliness. Humble people, on the other hand, may be far less capable individually, but their efforts add up. They know how to cooperate and yield to each other in a way that haughty people do not. Someone else on that Dawkins thread, an amateur wit, played with that them of unlikely extremists: “Jehova's witnesses are peaceful but their extremists are better extremely annoying...” Why fight this? It is a viewpoint. Viewpoints are not wrong, because they are viewpoints—right or wrong doesn’t enter into the equation. Better to roll with it. I was indeed on a roll, and so I tweeted back:  “I will grant that they can be. Still, if you had a choice between a team of JWs approaching your door and a team of ISIS members, you would (hopefully) choose theformer. Those 2 groups, and only those 2 groups are officially declared “extremist” in Russia.” And with that, I included a link to my ebook, “Dear Mr. Putin - Jehovah’s Witnesses Write Russia.” I am shameless in that. No matter how many books I sell, it is not enough. I don’t sell them, anyway. The book is free, a labor of love. It is an application of the theme: “If you have something important to say, don’t hide it behind a paywall.” It is the only, to my knowledge, complete history of events leading up to and beyond the 2017 ban of the Witness organization in Russia. As to the latest developments there, another one was herded off to prison, who, making the best of a sour situation, or perhaps genuinely finding value there, said: "I want to thank … prosecution. I don't just thank you, but thank you very much, because thanks to you my faith has become stronger … I see I'm on the right path." Of course. It is unreasonable to oppose so vehemently a people totally honest, hard-working, and given to peace—and yet the Bible says that such will exactly happen. How can it not serve to strengthen faith?
    • According to scientific knowledge, the entire universe is in two states every day: something becomes and something disappears. Life on Earth is in the same status. I am disappointed with suffer of creatures on Earth, too. And can't connect with "my picture" of God as i accepted through JW Bible interpretations and my own interpretations, then and now. What if we made wrong pictures about Creator? .... based on wrong or failed text? 
    • You will find it's not "people" in general who judge too quickly, but it is ex-JWs. People in general do understand the complexities. Even the ARC understands the complexities, and so do prosecuting lawyers. But of course neither are in the business to understand, but to hopefully help remedy the situation and to get justice (well in the case of the lawyers; to get lots of $$$$ too, lets be honest).
    • What amazed me many times is this: Who writes articles, and about whom, and to whom? Here we have one paragraph about GB. Questions arise.  Who makes this observations and conclusions about GB?? Who is authorized to make comments about GB and their works?? Why examination about  GB, had been presented in a way, manner, as it is done by "Third Party"? Is it possible that GB is not able, in power to talk about themselves and gave self evaluation, introspective about own feelings, thoughts and deeds??!!  What a theatrics for public. They are histriones :))  
    • https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/united-nations-soldiers-paedophilia-un-child-rape-ngo-staff-a7648791.html https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/un-isn-t-doing-enough-to-tackle-its-sexual-abuse-epidemic-former-staff-agree/ @Srecko Sostar
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