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4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

That is nice and praiseworthy . But, i guess how you would not make Religious Doctrine about your sense of hospitality.

I would say, neither did Rutherford. Just because he wrote how he felt doesn’t mean it was made to be a doctrine.

It was meant to be inspirational. The kind of difference not taken into account by anyone here. I suspect no one here has a good grasp of the Org history. I would say, only those that taunt and display “dishonesty” usually chime in to in other words, misunderstood person. But it doesn't surprise me at all.

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

I wondered  the same thing about 6 years ago, when just leaving the WT. Definitely, it can give a person a "strong headache"!    What I realized when it was pointed out to me, is that the answer is right in this set of scriptures.  Satan contrives the delusion, not God.  "The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works.God "sends" the delusion by allowing it to happen.  He allowed Satan to test Job's integrity, by removing the protective "hedge" around him.  Job 1:9-12   And, since Satan demands to sift each one of us as "wheat", God allows it.  Luke 22:31  

How can this not be applied to you or Srecko, Matthew and any other opposer? You have just answered yourself with the embodiment of bidding Satan's work.

Meaning, opposers here are their own worst nightmare.

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9 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

Just because he wrote how he felt doesn’t mean it was made to be a doctrine.

Well, by this you telling us how "his feeling" about something, he put on paper and then, he or his friends, came to idea to spread around the world "his feeling" with help of religious publications in purpose to teach people about Words of God. ?? They (WT Society) claim how printing and publishing publications is for that purpose, to spread "God's word" around the globe to educate people .... with Rutherford's feelings and feelings of his friends ??!! 

9 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

It was meant to be inspirational.

Hold a minute please. For a very long, long time WT Society claims how not one person in Organization and nothing published in/by WT Society is not "inspired by God". And now this statement of your want to show us, how because God not inspired his people, we need some individuals/people (Rutherford and others) who will inspire other people. But you are brave to say in responding to @Witness how we are instruments inspired by evil:

9 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

How can this not be applied to you or Srecko, Matthew and any other opposer? You have just answered yourself with the embodiment of bidding Satan's work.

:))))) sad and fun

 

9 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

I suspect no one here has a good grasp of the Org history.

Of course! And because of that you are in the same group as many others who don't know much about WT history. Apologize, but your own recognition on this, disqualified you from jury of those who are able to recognize how good or poor is someone person's knowledge about WT history. :))

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It is obvious that both Russell and Rutherford made mistakes in their interpretation and got some things downright wrong. For example the depiction of a Caucasian blue eyed, blonde, and beardless Jesus in "The Kingdom is at Hand" (1944). To us now, it seems unfathomable how this could have even happened, surely someone would have known that Jesus, as a middle eastern Jew, couldn't have looked like this: (He even has a 40's hair style!)

P1580137.JPG

 

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20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Well, by this you telling us how "his feeling" about something, he put on paper and then, he or his friends, came to idea to spread around the world "his feeling" with help of religious publications in purpose to teach people about Words of God. ?? They (WT Society) claim how printing and publishing publications is for that purpose, to spread "God's word" around the globe to educate people .... with Rutherford's feelings and feelings of his friends ??!! 

By this, are you saying; you know how people felt back then to understand the inspirational message that was circulating back then? If Russell was speaking against “hellfire” as an inspirational message, how can that be applied if today’s message about hellfire if its well understood by many religious denominations, not to be seen as the Catholic Church once understood it.

Does your response conclude the same message can be applied today? If there is a modern witness that lays waste to such understanding, that person is following the same pattern as you.

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Of course! And because of that you are in the same group as many others who don't know much about WT history. Apologize, but your own recognition on this, disqualified you from jury of those who are able to recognize how good or poor is someone person's knowledge about WT history. :))

I would refer to the corrections I made with your understanding of the Org. History. I don't need such assistance to understand the Org's history in the correct way.

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1 hour ago, Anna said:

For example the depiction of a Caucasian blue eyed, blonde, and beardless Jesus in "The Kingdom is at Hand" (1944). To us now, it seems unfathomable how this could have even happened, surely someone would have known that Jesus, as a middle eastern Jew, couldn't have looked like this: (He even has a 40's hair style!)

Can you provide how "exactly" Jesus looked, that I may be able to make the same claim. The  Org under the direction of JW's did make some changes in view from the early portraits and depictions of Jesus. Historical insight has Jesus seem a lot darker. This does not mean where Jesus was born weren't lighter skinned people.

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2 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

By this, are you saying; you know how people felt

 

On 10/4/2019 at 10:22 PM, divergenceKO said:

I would say, neither did Rutherford. Just because he wrote how he felt doesn’t mean it was made to be a doctrine.

Sorry, but you started to speak about Rutherford's feelings. :)) (bold red letter is mine) 

2 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

I would refer to the corrections I made with your understanding of the Org.

I will accept your corrections if your corrections are correct :))

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Several Years ago archaeologists found the Ossuary of James, the brother of Jesus ( An Ossuary is like a casket, but it is a small box that contains only bones, separated to fit in a small box ...). In fact, on the side of the Ossuary, it was written in Hebrew "James brother of Jesus".

Further investigation with x-rays have revealed on the four sides of the box  carbon impressions of the images of Jesus' brothers James, Brian, Pablo, and his one sister, Esmeralda, who was killed in an ox-cart accident.

On the inside bottom of the lid was an image of Jesus, which forensic scientists used computer image enhancement to turn into a modern day photograph, shown below.

Mary, Jesus' mother, was not represented.

 

Jesus portrait.jpg

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Further research on the origin of Christendom's "Cross", shows that earlier it was a symbol of a fish, and when Christians met they would wipe their forheads and make that symbol with their fingers as a secret sign of recognition during times of persecution, and as the Catholic Church evolved, the fish scribement was replaced with the "cross" scribement, on the forehead.

Before the times of persecutions, they had a small button near the left breast as identification.

 

12606_lg.jpeg

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If I were to tell someone that they are going to have to wait 1260 days for something, but that they might really have to get to 1290 before seeing it, and that they will be truly happy if they wait for 1,335 days, then I don't think it's likely that anyone would guess that I meant 3,885 days in total. And yet this is something like the Watchtower's view. I also think that if such a specific number of days were intended for us today that they would match to a specific number of days in a calendar. I agree, too, that the 1,260 of Revelation 11 & 12 is key. (And of Daniel 7:25; 12:7) The Watchtower also generally agrees on this point, even though they move the 1,290 as a completely new time period away from the 1,260. The explanation given in the Watch Tower publications, as you say, are "greatly rounded." None of them can even reach back as far as October 1914, the most important date/event in modern history according to the new "God's Kingdom Rules" book. The best they can do is start it near the end of December 1914, just a few days from January 1915. In fact, since they end it around June 21, 1918 it must start around December 21, 1914. To even catch this little piece of the tail-end of the all-important year 1914, they must end this period with the sentencing, rather than the actual imprisonment. In the scheme of things, the sentencing was just another part of a process that had begun in the "scheming" that began back in March 1918 when the FBI was building a case based on the Finished Mystery book. *** dp chap. 9 p. 142 par. 28 Who Will Rule the World? *** God’s witnesses would preach dressed in sackcloth for 42 months, or 1,260 days, and then be killed. When did this time period begin and end? . . . Hence, beginning in December 1914, that small band of witnesses preached “in sackcloth.” . . . Harassment of God’s anointed ones climaxed on June 21, 1918, when the president, J. F. Rutherford, and prominent members of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society were sentenced on false charges to long prison terms. Intending “to change times and law,” the “small” horn had effectively killed the organized preaching work. (Revelation 11:7) So the foretold period of “a time, and times and half a time” ended in June 1918. The start of the next period 1,290 days does not even attach to the first period without a several month gap. And again, even to get it as close as possible they used the "proposal" of the League of Nations rather than the actual start of the League of the Nations: *** dp chap. 17 p. 300 pars. 22-23 Identifying True Worshipers in the Time of the End *** The League was officially proposed in January 1919. At that time, then, both conditions of Daniel 12:11 were met. So the 1,290 days began in early 1919 and ran until the autumn (Northern Hemisphere) of 1922. During that time, did the holy ones make progress toward becoming whitened and cleansed in God’s eyes? They certainly did! In March 1919 the president of the Watch Tower Society and his close associates were released from prison. They were later exonerated of the false charges against them. Aware that their work was far from over, they got busy immediately, organizing a convention for September 1919. In the same year, a companion magazine to The Watch Tower was first published. Originally called The Golden Age (now Awake!), it has always supported The Watchtower in fearlessly exposing the corruption of this world and in helping God’s people to remain clean. By the end of the foretold 1,290 days, the holy ones were well on the way to a cleansed and restored standing. In September 1922, right about the time when this period ended, they held a landmark convention at Cedar Point, Ohio, U.S.A. Notice again that the periods do not work out. 1290 days is about 17 months, so that a starting date in January would have to end in August, and the convention wasn't until September 1919, which is why it ends at a time when they were only "preparing" for this assembly. And the next period of 1,335 days is even looser in terms of anchoring to any specific occasions. Note: *** dp chap. 17 pp. 303-304 pars. 24-26 Identifying True Worshipers in the Time of the End *** “Happy is the one who is keeping in expectation and who arrives at the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days!” (Daniel 12:12) The angel gives no clues as to when this period begins or ends. History suggests that it simply follows on the heels of the preceding period. In that case it would run from the autumn of 1922 to the late spring of 1926 (Northern Hemisphere). Did the holy ones come to a state of happiness by the end of that period? Yes, in important spiritual ways. 25 Even after the convention in 1922 (shown on page 302), some of God’s holy ones were still looking longingly to the past. The basic study material for their meetings was still the Bible and the volumes of Studies in the Scriptures, by C. T. Russell. At that time, there was a widely held view that pointed to 1925 as the year for the resurrection to begin and for Paradise to be restored to the earth. Thus, many were serving with a fixed date in mind. Some proudly refused to share in the work of preaching to the public. This was not a happy state of affairs. . . . The issue of March 1, 1925, carried the historic article “Birth of the Nation,” giving God’s people a full understanding of what had happened in the 1914-19 period. After 1925 passed, the holy ones no longer served God with an immediate, explicit deadline in view. . . .  At the convention in May 1926, the book Deliverance was released. (See page 302.) This was one of a series of new books designed to replace Studies in the Scriptures. No longer were the holy ones looking to the past. They were looking confidently to the future and the work ahead. As prophesied, the 1,335 days therefore ended with the holy ones in a happy state. If Daniel had spoken of the 1,335 days as culimating in the most unhappy time period ever for God's people, then this could have made more sense. It would have been very easy to show why this was the most UNHAPPY time period in our organization's history. 1925 had been hyped since 1918 as one of the most important prophecies that the "prophet" -- the Watchtower -- had ever proclaimed, and it turned out to be a miserable failure: a false prophecy. People were now leaving in larger numbers, even those who had hung on past the 1917 organizational debacle. In 1926 Rutherford began to systematically throw away all the old foundations for the time prophecies of Russell. More people were upset. Although Rutherford claims that he had been fighting against Russellite creature worship all along, this was actually the time when Rutherford himself stopped making great claims for Russell and began pushing against Russell's teachings almost "en masse."   Rutherford was beginning to fight with colporteurs and pioneers because they no longer wanted to sell Russell's books if they were pushing doctrines that were now considered "from Satan" (pyramids, etc). But Rutherford still had large stockpiles of these books and insisted that the Lord wanted them sold to the public. The "Bulletin" (Later Informant, later Our Kingdom Ministry) claimed that anyone who balked at this particular edict by Rutherford was going against the Lord himself. More people left the organization over this, and from 1926 to 1932 the campaigns to sell Russell's books continued. We could go on and on comparing this particular period of sadness and gloom with the periods before and since, but there is definitely enough to make us wonder why these particular time periods were chosen for the 1260, 1290, and 1,335 days. I think there are enough weaknesses in it, that the Society will revisit it -- especially if they realize that more and more Witnesses are looking at the prophecy more closely. If I get a chance, I'll explain more of the problems I have with the primary solution that is being promoted from the original post in this topic. I think there is a much simpler solution -- it's one we already have used in the publications on a closely related set of time periods related to the half-week (3.5-year period) in the final 70th week in the week-of-years prophecy. I don't doubt there are other possibilities that might seem more exciting, but some of those ones here imply that we can currently predict the times and seasons, and this particular period is one in which Jesus said the end events would come like a thief in the night. I admit that this is more boring than tying current events to Daniel and Revelation, but there are some excellent reasons to look at it this way (I think) starting with the "two witnesses" and the "olive trees" in Revelation 11. Paul explains the two olive trees very well in Romans 11, and we had already used this tie-in to a 3.5 year period in the discussion of the "keys of the kingdom." Note: *** w79 10/1 p. 23 pars. 1-2 “The Keys of the Kingdom” and the “Great Crowd” *** IN THE year 36 C.E. a marked event in Christian history took place in Caesarea on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea. Whether Philip the evangelizer had settled there by that year we do not know for certain. If he had done so, then why was he not used in connection with a certain army officer of the Italian band of soldiers then stationed there? Philip had preceded the apostle Peter in Christian activity in Samaria, so why not now in Caesarea in 36 C.E.? The inspired Scriptures give us the answer. The Law covenant that Moses had mediated between Jehovah God and Israel at Mount Sinai in Arabia was abolished on the basis of the impalement of Jesus Christ, the descendant of Abraham and King David. That was three years and a half from the water baptism and spirit-anointing of Jesus back in 29 C.E. Nevertheless, Jehovah continued to give preferential treatment to the natural Jews and Samaritans also during this period for three years and a half more, to fulfill the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27a. This “week” or period of seven years terminated in the seventh lunar month (Tishri) of 36 C.E. From then on the Israelite descendants of Abraham would be put on the same spiritual level as the people of the non-Jewish nations, the uncircumcised Gentiles. After that no more preferential treatment to the Jews by the God of Abraham! How was this demonstrated in 36 C.E.? From here, we already have a Biblically consistent tie-in between the two witnesses (the witness to the Jews, and the witness to the Gentiles) and the two olive trees (natural Jewish olive tree and the grafted Gentile olive tree) the 42 months or 1260 days. If we look at a few other events with respect to the week of Pentecost of 33, Christ's ascension, etc., we can attempt to work out the differences between a simple 1260 and 1290 and 1335, but I don't even think this is necessarily the answer here.
    • This is relatively true. Relativism is based on perception. It depends in what part of world you live, and how much income you have. Generally, i believe how most JW's do not belong to people who have more (surplus money) than they need for some "normal" life. Of course, we all can do some changes to live more modest life than we do now. But it is not good to be "clever" in advising how some other people should live in their circumstances, and not for yourself. And this is also good advice for WT Society. To not give lessons about modesty when they using expensive building projects and other advanced technology for few so simple request Jesus put on people: Love God, Love people and give testimony about your Faith and Hope. 
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