What is the point of surviving Judgement Day if you can achieve the same thing by waiting 1,000 years dead?

[Shiwiii]

So as I am sure there are plenty of you folks here that adhere and read the wt and "awake".  Have any of you who have read these considered the wt Oct study edition this year? In particular this little quote:

       "KEEP TRYING TO MAKE DISCIPLES
14. According to Jesus’ instructions recorded at Matthew 28:19, 20, what do we try our best to do, and why?

14 Read Matthew 28:19, 20. As we conduct Bible studies, we have to try our best to “make disciples . . . , teaching them to observe all the things [Jesus has] commanded.” We need to help people understand how important it is for them to take their stand for Jehovah  and his Kingdom. This means trying to motivate people to make the truth their own by applying what they learn, dedicating their life to Jehovah, and getting baptized. Only then will they survive Jehovah’s day.—1 Pet. 3:21."

 

So one must be baptized as a jw in order to survive Jehovahs day (judgement day).  That is basically what is being said. 

What about this statement by the wt? 

"Millions of others will have the opportunity of gaining everlasting life when they are resurrected. Jesus performed a resurrection when he visited the city of Nain. The only son of a widow had died, and Jesus, “moved with pity,” raised him to life  again. (Luke 7:11-15) Also, the apostle Paul said: “I have hope toward God . . . that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” 

So which is it? What is the point of surviving the judgement day if you can achieve the same thing after the 1000 years? 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

I personally would believe a direct quote from the Bible, before I would believe someone's opinion who has over the years lost all credibility with fake, goofball interpretations.

However, the two scriptures quoted are about TWO different things .. 1.) surviving Armageddon, and 2.) Resurrection of the dead.

I see no conflict.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

17 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

surviving Armageddon, and 2.) Resurrection of the dead.

I see no conflict.

If dead in Armageddon is not final, and if that means people can be resurrected because of special reasons God have, despite death in Armageddon, than ....  

[Shiwiii]

NO,no,no......

This topic  is not about what scripture says, AND the topic is not about "What is the point of surviving the judgement day if you can achieve the same thing after the 1000 years?"

This topic is about the contradicting statements by the wt in their same magazines! I did not write this title, my title was"

Which is it?" in other words......what does the wt expect you to believe when they speak out of both sides of their mouth/mag. 

[John Houston]

The point is knowing what the Bible teaches. We know those 'judged' at Armageddon will not return from the dead ever. That is why we do our best NOW, before that day! Those who are returned from the dead, during those 1000 yrs., will be taught as the survivors and together they will be able to stand before the released evil one at the end of the 1000 yrs.

[Sean Migos]

On 10/3/2019 at 1:18 PM, Shiwiii said:

So one must be baptized as a jw in order to survive Jehovahs day (judgement day).  That is basically what is being said. 

What about this statement by the wt? 

1. Do you believe those that follow Christ are saved? 

2. Do you believe those that have died are now in heaven?

3. How about those that "refuse" to accept God as the only divine deity that is supposed to be worshipped?

4. What does the 1,000 years of purification have to do with judgment?

[Srecko Sostar]

6 hours ago, John Houston said:

We know those 'judged' at Armageddon will not return from the dead ever.

I am not sure about this. Where in a Bible was clearly said that people died in Armageddon have no hope for resurrection?  

In WT explanation, Adam and Eve death was not like death of all people after them. Adam and Eve not died in Armageddon.

Perhaps, when Revelation book talking about Second Death and Lake of Fire, it is some base to talking about no resurrection hope. But Armageddon has not described in Bible as Final Death, Second Death or Lake of Fire. 

Second Death is obviously something that happened to Adam and Eve. Teaching is how they will not be resurrected. Also, according to WT  interpretation on Revelation verses, at the and of 1000 years there will be Final Test and Second Death for those not passed the test. Even "Normal Death" will be "hurled" into  the Lake of Fire and died there. But even with that fact, death is eternal, because God is in power to destroy life whenever ever He found how that is justified. 

In my opinion, if God not want to resurrect some people from the past until today, that would mean how these people not died just as result of Adam sin, but how such death is already categorized as Second Death. By that logic, Armageddon is not and will not be, unique and only place and time from where and when is not possible to come to life again.

Noah Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Jew's Holy Wars and some other examples are examples where Organization gave interpretations on issue of death and resurrection. 

If Armageddon, as you said, is Final Judgement with death sentence, than previous and future (after Armageddon) judgements are what? Final or Temporary judgements?    

Does Revelation book has Literal or Allegorical meanings? How you decide what is Literal and what is not?

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

When I was a younger man, Sreko Sostar, such things were of intense concern to me.

After watching the yo-yo go up and down for 50 and more years. and the flashing strobe light of "new light" flashing on and off ( not to mention getting beat over the head with the flashlight ...). and  seeing the "overlapping generations" chart explained, and hearing the Governing Body in person (via video) come up with the things they do .... including "there is more evidence of the Kingdom, than there is for gravity, electricity. wind ..." I have a new policy which governs my thinking.

Anything that cannot be proved with solid hard evidence that is tangible, touchable, and recordable I will consider the source, and their track record of being right. and does it pass the common sense "smell test".

Just because a person gives advice and counsel wearing a white lab coat and has a stethoscope around his neck does not make him a Doctor.

..... he may be selling white lab coats and stethoscopes.

There is one thing for sure .....

After and undetermined number of trips around our Sun .... about the things you have mentioned .... we will all too soon know, without a word having been said by ANYBODY.

...since there is nothing we can do about it, no matter who is right, or who is entertaining fantasies .... why worry about it.

Sit back, have a beer ... enjoy the show ... and have a good life.

                                                       -------------------------

The reward of rejecting obvious crap ... is self respect.

 

 

[JW Insider]

It's interesting to look at how this teaching has changed over the years according to the Watchtower. Back in 1919, when we say that Jesus picked the top Watch Tower Society's leaders to be the Governing Body that made up the entire "Faithful and Discreet Slave" at the time, they taught a very different version of this.

Back then, and for several more years, the Governing Body taught that they were already in the thousand year reign. By the mid-1920's, the Watchtower was teaching that the millennium had started more than half a century earlier, and therefore had only about 950 years to go. By the mid 1920's, a resurrection would begin of all the persons worthy of a resurrection to earthly life, starting with the "ancient worthies" of Bible renown. 

"The year 1926 would therefore begin about October first, 1925.... We should, 
therefore, expect shortly after 1925 to see the awakening of Abel, Enoch, Noah, 
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Melchisedec, Job, Moses, Samuel, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, 
Ezekiel, Daniel, John the Baptist, and others mentioned in the eleventh chapter of 
Hebrews." The Way to Paradise p. 224 

"That among those who will be thus the faithful representatives and visible 
governors of the world will be David, who was once King of Israel; and Gideon, and 
Barak, and Samson, and Jepthai, and Joseph, formerly ruler of Egypt, and Samuel 
the prophet and other faithful men named with approval in the Bible at Hebrews 
11th chapter." -- Public Records Deed to the San Diego Property, Beth Sarim 

Remember that these men were not Christians (prior to John the Baptist) and Russell had long taught that all Christians (including the Great Crowd) will go to heaven, but that all persons prior to John the Baptist could be resurrected to life on earth. (The Great Crowd were anointed Christians, and were going to heaven because they were Christians.) Russell had taught that 144,000 of those anointed Christians had an even higher calling to be Christ's Bride. The other millions of Christians in heaven would not be part of Christ's Bride. 

But the resurrection of ancient worthies, starting about one Jubilee (50 years) into the 1,000-year reign, was only a start. Since we were in the millennium, it was also true that more and more people would be resurrected over the next 950 years, and that MILLIONS more persons would stop dying. MILLIONS of non-"Bible Students" (non-"JWs") would begin to live forever, or at least another 950 years before the next big test around the year 2873 or 2874.

(The "Millions Now Living Who Would NEVER Die" would also NEVER be part of the Great Crowd according to that teaching.)

If the WT/GB had kept that belief, we would now be nearly 145 years into the thousand year reign, with only 855 years to go. And more and more people would be added to those MILLIONS living in 1925 who would never die. The rest of the dead, including those who continued to die along with those of us already enjoying long lives, would come to life in resurrections at later times during the 1,000 years. (This part I don't have a consistent answer on yet, as to what we taught exactly about when people would stop dying, and when the resurrections might be considered complete.) By now, however, if the old teaching had held, there could be people still alive who had been born, for example, in 1825 (100 years old in 1925) and therefore already approaching their 200th birthday.

There was also the idea that Armageddon was already starting back then, more than 100 years ago, based on the clashes between workers and management, socialists and capitalists, etc. The solution was to change this to a different kind of Armageddon to happen in the future, not so much "among the nations" but at God's hands. And the 1,000-year reign would start immediately after Armageddon was finished.

We should keep in mind that Revelation is the kind of book that has always allowed for a variety of interpretations, and we currently teach that the above interpretation was not so far off so as to move Jesus to reject or disqualify the "faithful slave" for serving that as spiritual food.

[JW Insider]

It occurs to me that the GB's original belief about Armageddon and the 1,000 year reign was not so different than the belief from some other denominations that say that the 1,000 year reign started in the first century (some would say 70 CE).

Being a figurative time period, they say this thousand year reign is the one we are already in, and that might actually last for two thousand or even three thousand years after the first century. Then when Christ's worldwide "Parousia/Synteleia" occurs (Judgment Day/Armageddon), the rest of the dead come to life at that time, which is same as the the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous, in time for "Judgment Day." They say that this is how "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him."  And of course it allows for Revelation to say the following WITHOUT parentheses in the way that the NWT has added. (Biblehub, not the NWT, is shown below.)

4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection!

But this common solution is not really a better solution, because those of the first resurrection have come back to rule with Christ in his thousand year reign, which is then interpreted as lasting forever. It's illogical to have it mean both a limited time and an eternal reign. Adding the parentheses, as done in the NWT, is actually one of the simplest solutions, except that it effectively allows for TWO judgment days, one at Armageddon and one at the end of the 1,000 years of literal reign. (Although we do believe that they continue to reign forever, not just for a thousand-year reign, the 1,000 years has a special purpose of bringing "the rest of the dead back to life." This can include those resurrected during the period and the rest of those who may have never physically died, but who gain unending life due to 'passing the test' at the end of a literal 1,000 year period.)

[Shiwiii]

On 10/4/2019 at 5:15 PM, John Houston said:

 We know those 'judged' at Armageddon will not return from the dead ever. That is why we do our best NOW, before that day! Those who are returned from the dead, during those 1000 yrs., will be taught as the survivors and together they will be able to stand before the released evil one at the end of the 1000 yrs.

I disagree with those resurrected during the 100 years. See my explanation below.

On 10/4/2019 at 6:15 PM, Sean Migos said:

1. Do you believe those that follow Christ are saved? 

2. Do you believe those that have died are now in heaven?

3. How about those that "refuse" to accept God as the only divine deity that is supposed to be worshipped?

4. What does the 1,000 years of purification have to do with judgment?

1. yes

2. depends on how you view Pauls statement in 2 Corinthians 5:1-10. I do believe that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 

3. See below

4. See below

 

On 10/5/2019 at 12:19 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Where in a Bible was clearly said that people died in Armageddon have no hope for resurrection?  

It doesn't,  See below for my understanding. 

 

all references to a particular verse pertain to Revelation 20, unless otherwise noted. 

All of Revelation chapter 20 explains this I feel. Starting at verse 1, we are told of how Satan would be bound for the 1000 years. Then we see how those who have been give n the authority to judge, will do so.

Whom are these going to judge? Verses 4-6 tell us that they are those who have done well and lived as God has required, No image of the beast, no mark, their testimony about Jesus. We are told these are blessed and holy. 1 Corinthians 15 23-26 explains the order in which resurrection takes place and to whom, those who belong to Christ. This chapter in 1 Cor tells us more. It tells us that not all who belong to Christ will die first, nope some will be changed without ever tasting human death, 1 Cor verse 51. No mention of the unjust yet. 

Rev 20 verse 7 states "When the 1000 years are over,..." so this takes place after the 1000 years.  This is after Kingdom rule started and those who were still alive AFTER Armageddon. This is proven by  Rev Chapter 19 where it is stated that the beast was captured and false prophet were thrown into the lake of burning sulfur. The signs that these two performed prior were what deluded many into taking the mark of the beast and worshiping the beast.  So at this point it is chronological, ch 19 then ch 20.  So during Armageddon, some will survive, but not all.  Those who do survive are under rule for the 1000 years. There is no mention of ANY resurrection during the 1000 years, only after.  

Judgement of the dead comes after the 1000 year reign and after the battle of Gog and Magog. This is not the judgement of the living, but those who died anytime prior to this moment. Verse 12 tells us that all of the dead are standing before the throne awaiting judgement and they were judged based upon what they had done while living.  Ch 20 verse 15,  If their names were not written in the Book of Life........gone, lake of fire gone, second death.  

Once this judgement is over, the new heaven and new earth come into play and ch 21 verses 6-8 restate whom will be thrown in the lake of burning sulfur, the second death. 

 

I'm sure not all of you will agree with me, its ok. However, this is what I believe based on God's word. 

 

So if  jw's believe that there is a second chance/resurrection to try again during the 1000 years or after, I completely disagree. I just cannot see where in scripture that can be supported. If someone can show me, that would be great, but I just don't see it.  

[Matthew9969]

Your chances of being resurrected may be better if you come equipped with a case of Scotch.