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Srecko Sostar

WT Society and Religious Education

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WT Society and JW Organization looking on Education of Priests in "worldly" Schools and Universities who give them Diploma or Credentials, as something that is not needed for serving God in any capacity. It doesn't matter if you are rank and file member or serving as Ministerial servant or an Elder in JW congregation. On the contrary, "higher education", no matter is it question about religious or secular education, is viewed from most JW congregants, as something that is in opposition to God, His Word - Bible, and in fact it is product of corrupted World which is run by devil.  

For this and some other reasons, WT publications giving advice to members not to go to University to get "higher education". Instead, they say, it is enough to finish Elementary school or some Higher school to be able to get some job that will provide you basic material status.

What "flock" need is possible to get, to find through religious educational program provide by WT Society through congregational meetings, courses, some additional  programs for specific groups inside organization (pioneers, elders, missionaries, etc.) One specific instrument for education  is Gilead School.

JW members and leaders are very proud of fact how God provide them best education through Bible and Organization. And how they not need any Credentials or Diploma to be able to prove how they have sufficient knowledge, expertise and ability for handle with Bible and to educate other people about God. Who need peace of paper as proof you have qualification to work in such spiritual field?

Jworg web site:

 Application was made to the U.S. government for foreign students to be admitted under non immigration student visa provisions. In response, the U.S. Office of Education gave recognition to Gilead School as offering education comparable to professional colleges and educational institutions. Thus, since 1953, U.S. consuls throughout the world have had the Watchtower Bible School of Gilead on their list of approved educational institutions. As of April 30, 1954, this school appeared in the publication entitled “Educational Institutions Approved by the Attorney General.”

    Hello guest!

WT Society say how "worldly education" is of no worth for future life in Paradise, even more, it is inspired by devil and can corrupt JW young members, WHY this same WT Society had need to be RECOGNIZED by Educational worldly system, about whom they speaking so bad? For JW students who need visa for US to be able to come to Gilead School. This is technical reason. And Gilead School, by this action, found itself on worldly list with all other undesirable institutions who "spiritually corrupting people". 

Do Gilead School students get some "credentials or diploma" in shape of paper after they successfully finished program? Because they "graduate class".

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2019-11-09_200949.jpg

One of the revisions that will take place next year is that for meaningful jobs after returning to the secular world, when they are "downsized", is to print the diploma on the side of a panel from a corrugated cardboard box, so that you can flip it over and write in large black crayon or felt marker something meaningful and appropriate, and visible from a car window as you stand on the side of the road, looking for work.

It makes a better impression when you use official corrugated cardboard.

 

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I will guess how many ex Bethel workers who lost their jobs after WT Society accepted a new economic and financial audit of operations within the corporation, ask for and received Letters of Recommendations. No matter of jobs they had in Bethel, from cleaning and washing to IT skills, those letters possibly helped some of them when looking for secular jobs.

I know one Bethel elder who left Bethel and because he has fine knowledge about computers, he open private business and now living from that. His wife also found secular job.

One sister who left Bethel as cleaner, have not easy time to found and keep cleaning work at secular job market.

Some other Bethel people lost place in Home, and went to pioneer service or looking for jobs.

I do not know what official credentials, diploma they have. But that depend on what secular school education they have had accomplished before Bethel. Only, as i learned by @JW Insider respond, Gilead School students received formal piece of paper as proof of finished education inside WT Society. All other, Bethel workers, can get Recommendation Letter. But I am not sure for  what secular jobs, Gilead School students, can/would candidate for in real word.

Funny thing i see in Recommendation Letter and Gilead Diploma. According to Bible verses in 2 Cor 3, JW rejecting such Letters and Diplomas as proof for their qualification about service, ministry (in teaching others about Gospel, using Bible as whole for teaching others) This including two things: 1) "spiritual" qualification for teaching , and 2) "spiritual" qualification for position in hierarchy (clergy style).  

On other side it is good if you have some paper as proof of your qualification .... for something. Or as proof how you have skills and experience in cleaning floors. Little irony,  you won't mind me .:))

7 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

crayon or felt marker

I am working in one High School. For several years we have White Boards and board markers in almost all classes. Few smart boards, too.  Only in one room,  teacher (older generation) want to stay on white chalk and green board. Ministry of education, working on school reform  (new curriculum)  and equip schools with technological equipment.

In the same time teachers and professors in Grammar (children from 7-15 of age) and High school (from 15 - 18 of age) system, are in strike for better material position, salary. It is hard to find professor for IT subject to teach children, because they can find jobs with much better salary than in school.   

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On 11/9/2019 at 4:42 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

WT publications giving advice to members not to go to University to get "higher education". Instead, they say, it is enough to finish Elementary school or some Higher school to be able to get some job that will provide you basic material status.

What a blatant lie.   They have always encouraged men to do a trade.  With the tons of generic degrees now being pumped out at universities that are mainly producing useless degrees and students with life-long debt - it seems they were right all along.

Germany has a strong economy due to such a large portion of its population having technical trade qualifications.  

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

What a blatant lie.   They have always encouraged men to do a trade.

 

On 11/9/2019 at 4:42 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Instead, they say, it is enough to finish Elementary school or some Higher school to be able to get some job that will provide you basic material status.

I think Srecko was referring to a higher school to learn a trade.  Yet, they have also greatly encouraged young ones (men and women) just graduating from high school to become pioneers, which would not allow much time to attend a trade school.  

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On 11/12/2019 at 3:00 PM, Arauna said:

What a blatant lie.

You talking about WT Society and "higher education" ? Because i spoke about "higher education" as something that GB see as not good for members. GB consider such plase as "brood" of fornication and demonic influence. But people where ever they  go will be faced with bad things ….even in JW congregations.

“The educational system varies from country to country. In the United States, for example, public schools offer 12 years of basic education. Thereafter, students may choose to attend university or college for four or more years, leading to a bachelor’s degree or to postgraduate studies for careers in medicine, law, engineering, and so forth. Such university education is what is meant when the term “higher education” is used in this article. On the other hand, there are technical and vocational schools, offering short-term courses that result in a certificate or diploma in some trade or service.” Watchtower 2005 Oct 1 p.27

The educational system in many countries teaches students not only practical skills but also human philosophy. Students are encouraged to question the existence of God and to disregard the Bible. …. Some Christians who have pursued university education have had their minds molded by human thinking rather than by God’s thinking. .... A sister who has been in full-time service for over 15 years says: “As a baptized Witness, I had read and heard about the dangers of pursuing university education ............ What effect did higher education have on this sister’s thinking? She answers: “I am ashamed to admit that the education I pursued taught me to be critical of others, especially my brothers and sisters, to expect too much of them, and to isolate myself from them -   Watchtower 2019 Jun pp.6-7

….and so forth

 

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On 11/12/2019 at 7:24 PM, Witness said:

think Srecko was referring to a higher school to learn a trade. 

In most countries one goes to a technical college to learn a trade - so it is higher education.

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23 minutes ago, Arauna said:

In most countries one goes to a technical college to learn a trade - so it is higher education.

But I don't think that's what the WT has in mind. When the WT talks about higher education it means getting a bachelors, masters or doctorate degrees (in the USA). An associate degree is only for 2 years and is more akin to a trade certificate, it seems neither are viewed as "higher education" by the WT.

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6 hours ago, Anna said:

associate degree is only for 2 years and is more akin to a trade certificate,

Not the same thing. Many degrees are generic and useless. A two year technical trade can get you a good job....and salary. There are trades that can take 5 years or more.. depending in the field.......and level of mastery. 

There are countries which allow the person to work in the trade while studying for his specific job skills e.g. making tools.

Trades provide skills for people to open their own business which I think gives the person an independence from a boss. Also,  a way for an individual to choose their own working hours while earning better money for the same number of hours  in a generic office job with a degree.  Think of a plumber, electrician etc etc.

The point is that people say we are against higher education.  We are not. Higher education includes trades because one can do it after 12 years of school education.  There are high schools which do prepare one for higher education.  My major in high school was music which was equivalent to first year university.  Technical high schools do the same.

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14 hours ago, Anna said:

An associate degree is only for 2 years and is more akin to a trade certificate, it seems neither are viewed as "higher education" by the WT.

In the U.S., an Associates Degree can be akin to a trade certificate, but I think @Arauna is correct in highlighting the difference. It's also my experience that since Associates Degrees are usually given by the same colleges that give 4 year Bachelors Degrees, that most local bodies of elders will not consider them different enough without an explanation. It's possible to focus on a two-year degree geared to a specific trade or profession, and it's true that the latest WT focused on 4 year degrees and higher as the more "dangerous" types of education. This has been the implicit cut-off in prior articles, too. 

From personal experience, even 35+ years ago, I was pioneering after Bethel and had just been recommended to join the local body of elders in my congregation. I told them that I would be going to college to get a 4 year degree for computer programming. This would delay the appointment until I graduated and might be seen as rejecting the appointment altogether if I was not able to continue pioneering as I thought I would be able to do.

Today, by the way, there are many ONE and TWO year certificates one can get in programming which will make you MORE qualified for specific jobs in IT than many four-year degrees. In practice, these are often picked up by persons who already have a FOUR year degree and had trouble getting a job. In fact for a person with a FOUR year degree, they can usually pick up a separate programming certificate for only a few additional weeks of computer programming, or a PMP for project management. There is a still a prejudice at many large companies (like the one I just left) to hire FOUR year degrees for everything, even if the degree was not relevant to the job. They just liked the fact that they were hiring persons who had proved the ability to communicate and expect a certain level of general knowledge and vocabulary. I hired philosophy and English majors many times for programming and IT jobs, as long as the person also had prior experience in a company doing similar IT projects to our company.

When my own children began getting good college offers due to AP classes and high school class standing, I decided I would want them to go to college if they wanted, and they all did. The first two lived at home to attend NY universities, but the youngest lived 150 miles away, on campus. I wouldn't have to give up being an elder for the first two children, but since the newspapers had already made a big deal out of my youngest, (revealing his college choice) I would not be able to remain an elder.

 

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So the rules of men stopped you serving God as much, in what you would describe as a good capacity (Elder). 

How old was your youngest when they chose to go to that college / uni ? 

I would ask again. Where did the GB's Lawyers get their qualifications from ? 

Where did the planners / designers of the 'new' HQ get their qualifications from ? 

But no, GB = dictatorship.

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4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This could be true for some. No one was telling me I couldn't go to college, though. Their concern was that it would set a poor example to appoint an elder and then the congregation simultaneously found out I was going to college. But if a congregation needs elders, there is almost no difference in the amount and types of assignments given to ministerial servants. Even as an MS, I had been giving 5 different public talks (3 from the outlines), and was still being invited to give some of them in different congregations every few weeks. I believe I had either the 15 minute "Instruction Talk" or a 15 minute part on the Service Meeting about 3 times a month. And I was not told I had to pioneer, while attending college, but had offered this idea as a way to show that college was a not a full time priority in my life. No one held me to it anyway, as I only could manage pioneering for two more years. In my third year I was offered a great job and started it before graduation.

But still, it's always good counsel to give to anyone who is thinking about college, that they think about their priorities before making a decision. I've given the same counsel to others, but I make sure they still know it's their own choice, and we wish them all the best outcomes.

But then 30 years later, the issue comes up again with my own children. The need to step down as an elder if your kids go to college is not enforced consistently, at least in the United States. When children get large scholarships it can make it more sensible economically to go to a four year college, but it still gives the impression that you are putting economic and material interests ahead of the urgency necessary based on the shortness of the time to the end. The issue of setting a good example is not just for the congregation, but also the fact that you might not even have your own family in "subjection." Of course, kids go to college when they are 18, and I don't believe in "subjection" at this point in their lives. I believe in learning from my kids, and letting myself be subjected to hearing about what they are learning. 

I am not concerned too much about the Society's position on higher education. At this point, the economic benefits are too often a trap due to the high cost and doubtful employment outcomes. And although I'm sure I'd be welcomed to return as an elder, I am happy with all the things that can be done without the title. Also, you might know that I have a lot of difficulty navigating platform assignments that promote shunning, 1914, the sign, the generation, the "presence," and few other things on which we might well be right, but are too dogmatic about. I'm happy to wait until the pendulum swings in the direction of less dogma. Titles are not important.

@JW Insider  No disrespect but you didn't actually answer my questions, unless I'm a bit blind :)

Quote "The need to step down as an elder if your kids go to college is not enforced consistently,.."

NEED to step down, seems to show a dictated instruction. In my opinion it is a Man Made rule, not a direction from God. I would lump it into the 'traditions of men' category. :)  What do you think on that ?

Also I asked how old your 'child' was when they went to a college a long way away. Surely if they are of a certain age to make their own decisions then it was out of your hands. And why should the newspapers get knowledge of it ? 

The latter half of you last paragraph made me laugh. Quote " I have a lot of difficulty navigating platform assignments that promote .... " etc,  Um, a tactful way of saying 'I don't believe half of what the GB say but I'll stick with it anyway' :)  

And the, Quote "on which we might well be right .."  Fact is it's not WE that might well be right, it's following the GB's interpretations. There is no WE. There is only THEM ( at the top) and  congregants (at the bottom) .  And the congregants go out and preach exactly what they are told to preach (Workbook).  

Smiley faces as I'm trying not to be too serious about all this. No offence meant on any of it. 

 

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7 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Smiley faces as I'm trying not to be too serious about all this.

They should be embarrassed faces. Isn’t there an emoticon for that?

7 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

In my opinion it is a Man Made rule, not a direction from God. I would lump it into the 'traditions of men' category. :)  What do you think on that ?

Step into your own church and assume pastorship duties if you think there are not requirements going above and beyond that of members/

9 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Um, a tactful way of saying 'I don't believe half of what the GB say but I'll stick with it anyway' :)  

What it says is that the requirement to walk in lock-step, as you must have said elsewhere, is a figment of your imagination. If you haven’t said it, it is only a matter of time, because you buddies say it ad nauseam.

11 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

There is no WE. There is only THEM ( at the top) and  congregants (at the bottom) .  And the congregants go out and preach exactly what they are told to preach 

This is too stupid to respond to. I just can’t do it.

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A case in point where by Mr Harley only answers by trying to make fun of someone. 

Quite strange that Mr Harley missed off the word WORKBOOK when he quoted me above. 

 

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41 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

A case in point where by Mr Harley only answers by trying to make fun of someone. 

Come, come. This is not a gentleman's’ club. The only gentleman here is JWI, who astounds me with his civility, even in the face of downright hostile comments. I confess that I sometimes wonder if I should try to emulate him more.

His civility does him no good, however. Malcontents take his civility and beat him over the head with it. But he is of the sort who believes that theocracy dies in darkness, and I think their response does not matter to him,

45 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

A case in point where by Mr Harley only answers by trying to make fun of someone. 

It is a little mean, I will concede the point. And I have no problem apologizing. Still, when you take the stage to level the most outlandish accusations, ill-informed except for from the playbook of other opponents, you cannot cry if someone pointedly takes exception to your shooting from the hip.

48 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Quite strange that Mr Harley missed off the word WORKBOOK when he quoted me above. 

It frankly didn’t make any sense to me. But if it makes you happy, Mr 4Jah2Me: “WORKBOOK.”

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6 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Come, come. This is not a gentleman's’ club. The only gentleman here is JWI, who astounds me with his civility, even in the face of downright hostile comments. I confess that I sometimes wonder if I should try to emulate him more.

His civility does him no good, however. Malcontents take his civility and beat him over the head with it. But he is of the sort who believes that theocracy dies in darkness, and I think their response does not matter to him,

It is a little mean, I will concede the point. And I have no problem apologizing. Still, when you take the stage to level the most outlandish accusations, ill-informed except for from the playbook of other opponents, you cannot cry if someone pointedly takes exception to your shooting from the hip.

It frankly didn’t make any sense to me. But if it makes you happy, Mr 4Jah2Me: “WORKBOOK.”

I do believer the Workbook is the item used at mid-week meetings, when telling the congregants exactly what they should be preaching. And as I had mentioned that congregants were told what to preach i thought it right to reference the Workbook. 

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5 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

I do believer the Workbook is the item used at mid-week meetings, when telling the congregants exactly what they should be preaching. And as I had mentioned that congregants were told what to preach i thought it right to reference the Workbook. 

Oh. I see. That perception is incorrect, though. Sample presentations are included, but they are but a small part of what is contained in the workbook. The workbook is simply the program for the upcoming meeting, making it possible to prepare for it. Any meeting of any sort  is better if you can prepare for it.

The segment you refer to runs about 15 minutes in an overall meeting of nearly two hours.

I haven’t used one of the sample presentations in ages. For the most part, I don’t like them. They are presented as a form of coaching. Door-to-door preaching is not the easiest thing in the world, you know. Try it yourself and let me know what you think. 

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8 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

NEED to step down, seems to show a dictated instruction. In my opinion it is a Man Made rule, not a direction from God. I would lump it into the 'traditions of men' category. :)  What do you think on that ?

Yes, it is a man made rule, but based at least in part on scriptural principles. Also these are man-made rules coming from those who should be in a better position to see a wider set of statistics and experiences as they get reports from all around the world. Elders are sometimes called "epi-skopos" in Greek, meaning overseers. When we consider those who literally watch over a flock closely, we might expect them to count the number of sick, the number who die, the number eaten, the number of sheep in various categories: mottled, speckled, young, old, male, female. They also know the dangers of taking them through "Wolf Ravine" or making them wade through "Poison Water River." Similarly, if the elders working at headquarters got 100 reports of divorces right after holding an international convention in Las Vegas or Amsterdam, but no reports of divorces every time they held the same size international conventions in Helsinki or Reykjavík, I think it would be a wise man-made rule not to schedule international conventions in Las Vegas or Amsterdam. Not all traditions make the word of God void.

16 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

I would ask again. Where did the GB's Lawyers get their qualifications from ? 

The WTS had a program to pay for Law School for selected individuals already working full time at Bethel or other full time service who showed promise or aptitude for such. This program was dropped, and you can be sure that there those at HQ who were counting the cost, much like those shepherd counting the survivors of "Wolf Ravine." They reverted back the previous system of using volunteers who had finished Law School before becoming Witnesses.

8 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Also I asked how old your 'child' was when they went to a college a long way away. Surely if they are of a certain age to make their own decisions then it was out of your hands. And why should the newspapers get knowledge of it ? 

Age 17.

But all scores that count are measured at the end of Junior year, not Senior year of American High School. Therefore it requires a conscious choice to pick the maximum number of advanced placement classes which could result in the best choices and scholarships and would therefore be a path chosen by age 15 or 16 at the latest.

Local papers print up the bio given by a Guidance Counselor office of each high school reporting on the scores of their "Valedictorians" and those who are accepted by certain colleges.

16 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Where did the planners / designers of the 'new' HQ get their qualifications from ? 

Asked and answered in a prior post.

8 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

difficulty navigating platform assignments that promote .... " etc,  Um, a tactful way of saying 'I don't believe half of what the GB say but I'll stick with it anyway' :)  

So far, I believe well more than half of the GB says. :)  

8 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

And the, Quote "on which we might well be right .."  Fact is it's not WE that might well be right, it's following the GB's interpretations. There is no WE. There is only THEM ( at the top) and  congregants (at the bottom) .  And the congregants go out and preach exactly what they are told to preach (Workbook).

I believe that since WE, if we hope to be noble-minded individuals, are responsible to search the Scriptures and see whether these things are so, then this must be WE not only THEM. And there are many ways to tell someone about the Kingdom hope, the paradise, the resurrection, God's purpose, God's government, and why it's got to be a sight better than what we are putting up with now. Sometimes the CLAM workbook is spot on, sometimes it doesn't fit my style at all.

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9 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

the Workbook. 

I came in the truth 45 years ago while a young student in Africa (lived there for 45 years). I have worked and lived also in USA (15 years), England, Sweden and now retired in Republic of Georgia. I worked as a reporter and after that in PR for several companies.

I find most Americans (not all) myopic and inward looking and entitled. What I learnt in my travels is that 'cultures' give people certain values that they cling to - which can make them difficult and unadaptable.  And this is also true of people in the truth. Personality traits and values which are so ingrained that if the person is not prepared to work on it themself. Hence, they can make it almost impossible for Jehovah to work with them or for them to fit in. So some people - as a result of this, think the elders and GB are controlling.

If they look closely - they will see the fault is their own.  Sweeping statements such as  "workbook " wich seem to be a mandatory way for preaching  shows an ignorance of the truth. It may come from deepseated rebellious inclination to any authority. 

I work with youth in the fieldservice all the time. While they do not have the experience to talk off the cuff - I always do.   They follow the prescribed workbook ideas perfectly and do well enough but they can also see how my life experience, additional knowledge and knowledge of other countries,  can help a person with small talk and much else .  

I watch politics all over the world and understand how large corporations work. Most of the criticism I see against GB comes from the inexperience of not understanding that the GB deal with a different set of laws in each country and had to learn the hard way that American law is not universal law....... and laws are not applied the same everywhere. 

IF I were a GB member I would also have given the same preaching suggestions to new or shy people and encourage them to stay on topic so they can at least have a positive experience.  I am here in a foreign language congregation and the repetitive field presentations in the "workbook" help those who are learning a new language. A good question to always ask is this: what would I have done if I was a GP member?   

OLDER  members who have heard the basics over the years at meetings definitely  like new ideas to meditate or "chew" on. So  I usually prepare and answer to this effect.... which usually gives young or newer ones in the congregation incentive to do more research.

Recently we had a section on cleanliness.  Why?   Well,  I had a student/study from a very poor part of the world. Her children used to smell, she had no sheets on her beds, etc. Etc. They came to meetings this way.  We had to teach her these things.   Some countries  have merely the bare necessities - they do not use sheets...or have enough water to wash. So never be arrogant and view the GB as being "prescribing", silly or harsh.  How to feed your family in a healthy way with very little money is not a subject fit for USA but very important in other parts of the world.

In Africa,  we have terrible practices which come from spiritism and superstition..... people sometimes revert back to old ideas..... so one has to speak to these persons and maybe discipline them.  Is this harshness or ensuring that Jehovahs standards are kept?  One always finds the personality type which is not easily adaptable.  If I tell a white person that they will share the paradise with a black person and they don't like it?  Who is closing the future hope of living in a paradise for themselves? The GB, the elders, me or the persons own bad attitude? 

I am a natural rebel, could never follow rules and still hate rules. Dont like it when elders use a suggestion from GB to make it into a rule.  I have also seen them being corrected for doing this...... On the other hand, I also do realize the necessity to have a mild spirit, a yielding personality - not quick to criticise those who try to serve jehovah to the best of their ability. BUT I have also worked on obtaining a strong sense if what is right or wrong morally.....so I can smell an amorral  rat or thought quickly.  

Do not be misled- I see secular attitudes on this forum all the time. Where brothers and sisters have lost the ability to see danger where it is lurking because they have become too secularised in their thinking.  After all?  Was the test of Adam and Eve not the choosing of their own morality (right and wrong which affects every situation in life) and the  rejecting of Jehovah's good and bad?    Never think you are "sophisticated" or "reasonable"  or "scholarly" when you adopt secularized opinions......and those in opposition to the bible.

The GB and elders are there to keep suchlike ones from not influencing the flock.....

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18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Their concern was that it would set a poor example to appoint

My brother, the analytical chemist and toxicologist (researcher), went to prison for 3 years because he refused to assist the government in secret with poison to kill dissidents.  He later did research in metallurgy, and then programmed computers  for scientific projects.

He wanted a break from programming and took a job in research with L'oreal cosmetics.  Research is his first love.  After a while the company started to pressure him to do a doctorate they needed. He resigned......  He would have loved to do it but realized it was a bad example to his sons and the congregation. 

But in my experience, I have seen the blessings that come from sacrifice done in faith.  Just remaining strong in the truth is a blessing some do not really appreciate.

University education is now a trap, especially with the new humanities.  I lost one of my best friends who did a masters in this newfangled social engineering sciences - He was like a son to me.  He is now apostate and I have not seen him for a few years.   The heartbreak of this made me realize the pitfalls of higher education anew.

 

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22 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

But no, GB = dictatorship.

I have a feeling that you would view any instruction as a dictatorship.  Do you view the instructions from Jehovah as a dictatorship? Especially on the laws he views as something we cannot compromise  on?

The EU and UN intends to bring in a surveillance system similar to China.  If this does come to fruition you will then really understand what a dictatorship truly is and not bandy the word around so easily.

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@TrueTomHarley  Quote " Door-to-door preaching is not the easiest thing in the world, you know. Try it yourself and let me know what you think. "

I have Mr Harley, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. In the days when i believed all that the Watchtower would say. I didn't find the ministry at all 'frightening'. I found it to be fun though obviously having a serious theme. People in general would either listen or just say no. Always difficult to get good rounded discussions though in my opinion. I will admit to never getting beyond basic presentations and only getting invited in a very few times. 

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Yes, it is a man made rule, but based at least in part on scriptural principles. Also these are man-made rules coming from those who should be in a better position to see a wider set of statistics and experiences as they get reports from all around the world. Elders are sometimes called "epi-skopos" in Greek, meaning overseers. When we consider those who literally watch over a flock closely, we might expect them to count the number of sick, the number who die, the number eaten, the number of sheep in various categories: mottled, speckled, young, old, male, female. They also know the dangers of taking them through "Wolf Ravine" or making them wade through "Poison Water River." Similarly, if the elders working at headquarters got 100 reports of divorces right after holding an international convention in Las Vegas or Amsterdam, but no reports of divorces every time they held the same size international conventions in Helsinki or Reykjavík, I think it would be a wise man-made rule not to schedule international conventions in Las Vegas or Amsterdam. Not all traditions make the word of God void.

The WTS had a program to pay for Law School for selected individuals already working full time at Bethel or other full time service who showed promise or aptitude for such. This program was dropped, and you can be sure that there those at HQ who were counting the cost, much like those shepherd counting the survivors of "Wolf Ravine." They reverted back the previous system of using volunteers who had finished Law School before becoming Witnesses.

Age 17.

But all scores that count are measured at the end of Junior year, not Senior year of American High School. Therefore it requires a conscious choice to pick the maximum number of advanced placement classes which could result in the best choices and scholarships and would therefore be a path chosen by age 15 or 16 at the latest.

Local papers print up the bio given by a Guidance Counselor office of each high school reporting on the scores of their "Valedictorians" and those who are accepted by certain colleges.

Asked and answered in a prior post.

So far, I believe well more than half of the GB says. :)  

I believe that since WE, if we hope to be noble-minded individuals, are responsible to search the Scriptures and see whether these things are so, then this must be WE not only THEM. And there are many ways to tell someone about the Kingdom hope, the paradise, the resurrection, God's purpose, God's government, and why it's got to be a sight better than what we are putting up with now. Sometimes the CLAM workbook is spot on, sometimes it doesn't fit my style at all.

@JW Insider Thank you for your patience and great response. 

The American way seems far different to the British way, in my opinion anyway., and it seems to reflect within the Org and on this forum. 

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@Arauna  Quote " I find most Americans (not all) myopic and inward looking and entitled "

Myopic is an adjective meaning shortsighted in every sense. Whether you need glasses or a new attitude, if you can't see the forest for the trees, you're myopic.
 
Governing Body = Americans = myopic.  7 of the 8 are American.
 
You have travelled the world.  Quote "What I learnt in my travels is that 'cultures' give people certain values that they cling to " 
 
So it may be that the GB 'cling to a culture and certain values' of America. 
 
Why then do they not have a Governing Body with members from many countries ?  That way they could understand 'cultures' and 'certain values' of different peoples. I would presume there are many Anointed ones in many different countries that are equal in spirituality to the GB. Unfortunately the GB do not seem to think so, as they seem to tell the Anointed not to contact each other. 
 
You say about yourself "I am a natural rebel, could never follow rules and still hate rules." 
 
You say about me "I have a feeling that you would view any instruction as a dictatorship."  
 
I find this very amusing :)  I also find your constant mentioning of 'morality' very funny, considering the state of the JW Org regarding child sexual abuse earth wide. 
 
Quote "Do you view the instructions from Jehovah as a dictatorship? Especially on the laws he views as something we cannot compromise  on? "    Tell that to the GB lawyers in their court cases. 
 
James 1 v 27  The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation,
    Hello guest!
 and to keep oneself without spot from the world.
Judge the GB and the JW Org on that scripture not as @Anna does , by comparing it to the Pope and the Catholic church.
 
 
 

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10 hours ago, Arauna said:

Republic of Georgia

I love to listen some folk საქართველო songs. Very long ago i heard one on radio before going to work in early morning, and i can't find it never again. Title was, if i remembered well, Don't rustle, privet. (Ne šumi kalino - in Croatian) 

Perhaps you know it, Arauna ?

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Why then do they not have a Governing Body with members from many countries ? 

Perhaps that sound too democratic :))) Non-Aligned Movement

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On 11/13/2019 at 1:28 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

 ...... A sister who has been in full-time service for over 15 years says: “As a baptized Witness, I had read and heard about the dangers of pursuing university education ............ What effect did higher education have on this sister’s thinking? She answers: “I am ashamed to admit that the education I pursued taught me to be critical of others, especially my brothers and sisters, to expect too much of them, and to isolate myself from them -   Watchtower 2019 Jun pp.6-7

That reminds me of people who claimed they used to play Beatle's records backwards ( I don't even know how you could do that ...) , and claimed you could hear voices saying "Serve Satan" or some such nonsense.

If they did ... and could hear that, I strongly suspect they had OTHER serious mental problems, and the record was not the real problem.

dt910905dhc0.gif

 

 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Beatle's records backwards

I have heard (or read about it in some WT article, not sure)  that too in first part of 1980'...... and repeated about this "danger stuff" to some young JW's in Czechoslovakia  in 1985.  :)))

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6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

this

I think the christendom churches mentioned this a lot.  Some elder could have mentioned it in  a talk if he quoted secular magazines..... but I do not recall hearing of this in WT magazines.

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On 11/16/2019 at 1:52 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

That reminds me of people who claimed they used to play Beatle's records backwards ( I don't even know how you could do that ...) , and claimed you could hear voices saying "Serve Satan" or some such nonsense.

You do it by putting the turntable in neutral and spinning it backwards with your finger. When you do, you hear repeatedly and very distinctly, “Turn me on, dead man.” (Revolution #9) When you play “Strawberry Fields Forever” forward, you hear at the very end, “I buried Paul.”

The rumor was that Paul, of the wildly popular only-game-in-town Beatles, had died some years ago and that the other three had covered it up, hiring a look-alike to take his place. This look-alike was referred to as “Billy Shears” from the Sgt Pepper’s album, who worried “what would you do if I sang out of tune?” but took solace that he would “get by with a little help from his friends.”

The Beatles cross the street “Abbey Road” in single file on the cover of the album of that name. John leads, dressed in white—he is the preacher. Ringo is next, in black—he is the undertaker. Paul is third—barefoot as a corpse would be, cigarette in hand, though he supposedly quit them years ago—he is the dead man. George is fourth, dressed in workman’s clothes—he is the ditchdigger. The license plate of the VW just over the curb is “28 IF,” the age Paul would be IF he was still alive. The first song of that album, “Come together,” revolves around sounds that could best be characterized as a shovel piling on dirt, as in a burial. References abound to going on without Paul: “He says, ‘one and one and one is three,’ Hold on to his armchair, you can feel his disease.”

The Sgt Pepper’s album cover features the old Beatles looking down upon the new Beatles, renamed Sgt Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band. The scene is of a burial—“Beatles” is spelled out in floral arrangement, and a host of other famous, though dead, people—Albert Einstein, Mae West, Edgar Allen Poe, about thirty in all—join the old Beatles in looking on.

This is just for starters. Supposedly, the three surviving Beatles had planned this for years, hiding clues in their records.

Why do I know this in such detail? I was a college student at the time. When this story broke, campus life came to a standstill. Kids were glued to campus radio, which cancelled all other programming to run with this 24/7. There was radio tie-in with major schools, which were also at standstills as regards academics activity. Students would call in with the latest theorizing. There were many in our school that cut classes so as not to miss a word. My roommate urged me (unsuccessfully) to install a reverse gear in my record player so as to play all Beatles songs backwards in search of additional clues. Had it been feasible, I probably would have done it.

Outlandish rumors were bandied about and accepted as gospel. The feed station—from UCLA, perhaps—featured unending call-ins and interviews of the latest “research.” On the back  cover of the Sgt Pepper’s album, one of the four—Paul’s replacement, I think—is conducting the band. Superimposed on the cover are the lyrics to the songs within. By this means, “Paul’s” finger points to the words from “She’s Leaving Home,” “Wednesday morning at five o’clock.” If you called a certain number—also listed in the album somewhere, I think—you found yourself connected to hell. I think that if you pressed the matter, you risked losing your soul. Don’t ever let anyone tell you that they are “young adults” in college. They are big children, reveling in the [then] newfound freedoms of drugs and sex, free of parental supervision,  hopefully on their way to becoming adults.

This Beatles’ plot was  the dominating concern of students then and it lasted for days on end.

The weekend came. Maybe it was even some holiday. I went home, about 250 miles away. NOBODY KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS! On campus, NOBODY KNEW ANYTHING ELSE! I couldn’t believe how oblivious the out-of-touch farts were to the greatest story of our time! Finally, after a day or two, there was a brief snippet at the end of the “World News Report” and it was in the form of a scolding. Walter Chronkite or his like ran a line of two, briefly acknowledged that the Beatles—those precocious kids—were having a laugh on the world, but what a sick laugh it was.

I wrote this up long ago. It does me good to recall it. Sure—I have nothing else to do with my time:

    Hello guest!

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On 11/16/2019 at 2:29 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

I have heard (or read about it in some WT article, not sure)  that too in first part of 1980'

Closest thing I remember to this idea was here:

*** w95 1/1 p. 8 par. 16 Triumphing Over Satan and His Works ***
16 This appears to be especially necessary today in view of the bizarre music with which Satan is drenching this world. In some cases there is a direct connection to Satanism. A report from the San Diego County (U.S.A.) sheriff’s office stated: “We had a concert down here where the band had 15,000 kids chanting ‘Natas’—that is, Satan spelled backwards.”

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