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4Jah2me

Suicide. God's view. Organisation's view

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I was in conversation with an elder last week (or maybe two weeks ago) and I don't quite know how we got onto the topic but we started talking about suicide. I was a bit surprised when he said "But don't commit suicide or you will not get a resurrection". 

I was wondering where exactly this information comes from. Having recovered from the shock, I have since emailed this elder and got no response. I have looked on JW Org and read a couple of older articles on there, but they seemed to say that it is or was not their place to judge, which i agree with. 

So, is there 'new light' on the subject of suicide ? If so where does this new light come from ? And what scriptures back up this 'new light' ?

I will willingly read any recent articles that are passed on to me, as this latest information, if it is true, i find disturbing. I know of many people that have committed suicide, both inside and outside of the Jehovah's Witnesses Organisation. 

 

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1.)  Jesus was on a mission that required him to walk into a trap, and be executed. He willingly did this knowing he would die, in a manner most painfull, where agony is an understated word.

In the Military this is called a "suicide mission" ... a concept that EVEY civilization INCLUDING the armies of ancient Israel fully understood.

2.) Jehovah NEVER prohibited suicide, and was well aware that there were circumstances where it was the only option available, as in the circumstances of King Saul's last battle.

3.) Jehovah never even prohibited cannibalism, which was widely practiced in Jerusalem under siege by enemies.... it is a CULTURAL taboo, not a prohibition from God.

Same thing with suicide.

As Brother Splaine of the governing body said in a video awhile back, "we" once had opinions on ever imaginable subject, and they were presented as inspired directives and pronouncements from God. The example he gave was the hidden and profound meaning that it was downhill from one town to Jerusalem and that camels walking downhill had one symbolic meaning, and camels walking uphill had another symbolic meaning.

To be kind, this was some writer's opinion only ... but it was presented as profound insight from the Word of God.  What it really was was unmitigated crap.  I had a LOT of respect for Brother Splaine as being the only sane person in the bunch, until he came out with the "overlapping generations" chart, and tried to explain that nonsense as TRUTH.

I suppose he could be reassigned to the basement janitorial closet of Bethel laundry room if he did not obey the directive, and that is why he did it.  Of course, again, I am trying to be kind.

How many THOUSANDS of times can you be wrong about everything in everyday life and still have credibility? I would have to quote Circus Master P.T. Barnum.

Four years ago my Siberian Husky got cancer in her right eye, and after several thousand dollars we thought it was "fixed", but it spread, and she was being eaten up by cancer, and we took her to the Veterinarian and had her painlessly executed. It was with great anguish on my wife and my part to have to do that, but that is what love and compassion required of us.

LOVE NEVER FAILS ... remember that one?

FOLLOW JESUS  ... remember that one?

What EXAMPLE did he set for all time, in considering whether suicide is or is not ALLOWED by Jehovah God?

He committed suicide by deliberately walking into a known trap, for the EXPRESS purpose of being executed.

AND JEHOVAH RESURRECTED HIM !

When the Governing Body admitted for the first time, and only time, that they were NEITHER inspired of God, or infallible, in the February 2017 Watchtower, my reaction was ...

DUH!

 

 

 

"Quod est necessarium est licitum"

That which is necessary, is legal

Like, AS JESUS POINTED OUT, rescuing a lost sheep on the Sabbath, when doing work on the Sabbath is expressly forbidden.

How much more that principle can be applied when there is no prohibition whatsoever.

Playing with and manipulating words and phrases to conform to cultural taboos that you already believe, all the way to your bones ... DOES NOT COUNT!

I am saddened by knowing that when my time comes ... and it will all too soon .... there will be no one at all among Jehovah's Witnesses  to show me the same love and compassion that I showed my dog.

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11 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Are you therefore saying, there is no 'new light' on this subject ? 

Light is in you. JTR explained, in a kind way, do not look for some imaginable "new light" as something that coming from organized religion or corporation.

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Don't think it is new light. Don't be disturbed by anything you hear. Start doing research.  It is easy when you are on the computer.

People in the organization always used to think one would not get a resurrection if they committed suicide. However, please read  the powerful statement mentioned at the end of this answer to a question from readers (in 2002). Go to the article and read it in full. Continue to do research.

 

*** w02 6/15 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***

Questions From Readers

If someone commits suicide, would it be advisable for a Christian minister to give the funeral talk?

….

Any future prospect for the dead is in the hands of Jehovah, and no one is in a position to say whether the deceased will be resurrected or not. The minister can concentrate on the Bible truths about death and offer comfort for the bereaved." End Quote

 

Underscoring = mine

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

w02 6/15 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***

Questions From Readers

If someone commits suicide, would it be advisable for a Christian minister to give the funeral talk?

First of all, i have to noticed this: WHAT sort of READERS would come to such idea to even ask such question?

Is it ADVISABLE for a C. MINISTER to give talk ...? ........ Good God!

Also, this question showed how JW's are under (influenced) general idea (of Catholic church) how suicide is consider as sin. Because God is Master of life and you have no right to end something what is given to you  (and to other people) as God's gift. Life belong to God, so He is only one who can give or take life. In such cultural-social environment, suicide is not viewed as something acceptable for member (or is in some black-grey zone).

Another thing, JW funerals talks are, in almost all cases, made in form to giving witnessing to non witness people. That is main reason for giving talk, and not so much about comforting of those who stay.     

believe how many times, or almost always this questions are products of Bethel moves and strategy. Because, i can be sure how exist people who send some other letters/questions and such subjects not came under this section. Internet is place to ask unpleasant questions and to hear answers that is sometimes hard to accept.

 

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1 hour ago, Melinda Mills said:

Don't think it is new light. Don't be disturbed by anything you hear. Start doing research.  It is easy when you are on the computer.

People in the organization always used to think one would not get a resurrection if they committed suicide. However, please read  the powerful statement mentioned at the end of this answer to a question from readers (in 2002). Go to the article and read it in full. Continue to do research.

 

*** w02 6/15 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***

Questions From Readers

If someone commits suicide, would it be advisable for a Christian minister to give the funeral talk?

….

Any future prospect for the dead is in the hands of Jehovah, and no one is in a position to say whether the deceased will be resurrected or not. The minister can concentrate on the Bible truths about death and offer comfort for the bereaved." End Quote

 

Underscoring = mine

 

 

 

Thank you, i have read this already, but it isn't very recent.. My main point was to find out if the Governing Body / Writing Dept' has very recently written anything new regarding suicide. In the last 6 month maybe ? 

My personal feelings are that God, through Jesus Christ, will resurrect all those that they find worthy. And that 'worthiness' cannot be judged by any human. Thanks again.

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      -Romans 8:37-39
      Always remember that it is satan that makes a person to feel worthless. Keep fighting and DON'T GIVE UP. For more information on how to cope with depression visit this link.
      https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/awake-no1-2017-february/teen-depression-help/
      This post can help save a life.pls share


    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      A FORMER professional boxer was seen acting strangely moments before darting into the path of an oncoming lorry, an inquest heard.
      Dennis Harbon, 68, suffered head and chest injuries and died at the scene on the A58 Whitehall Road at Scholes on March 1 this year.
      Married Mr Harbon, a retired window cleaner who lived at Mayfield Place in Wyke, had a history of battling depression and his medication had recently been changed, the hearing was told.
      Witnesses described seeing him at the side of the road suddenly running and flailing his arms before jumping in front of the lorry.
      The inquest in Bradford yesterday heard the lorry driver swerved and braked but was left powerless to avoid hitting Mr Harbon.
      Shocked bystanders tried to help him, with one praying for him, until emergency services arrived.
      Mr Harbon, a JehovahÂ’s Witness, had been due to go to a bible teaching session that morning but had cancelled.
      His wife Amanda Harbon told Assistant Bradford Coroner Kirsty Gomersal her husband had been having good and bad days in the run up to his death but she had not thought it was bad enough for him to take his own life.
      Mr Harbon left three notes of apology at his home which led investigating officers to treat his death as a deliberate act, PC Luke Mitchell told the hearing.
      Summing up, Assistant Coroner Ms Gomersal said “much-loved” Mr Harbon had deliberately jumped in front of the lorry and concluded that his death was suicide.
      Mr Harbon boxed professionally from 1973 to 1975 at welterweight and light middle weight taking part in 14 bouts.
      http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/local/localbrad/15533256.Former_professional_boxer_took_own_life__inquest_told/

    • By Brother Rando
      Many religions teach an array of traditions and customs from reincarnation to entering into another realm. Should we put our trust into traditions and customs?   “In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19)“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5)“ Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out,” (John 5:28)“And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” (Rev 21:4)    Would you like to learn more? 
    • By Kurt
      Why did this crash survivor kill herself?
      ...two years after triple tragedy

      The crash that killed everyone, but spared Sewrhoni Mohan.
      SEWRHONI Mohan awoke early that morning and prepared a meal for her husband.
      As he packed the tools of his trade to head out to work just after daybreak, she told him that while he was gone she would meet her church colleagues to continue the ministry they had been doing in their community.
      When he left, she closed the doors and shut out the world.
      He came home to find her dead. She had placed a plastic bag over her head and suffocated herself to death.
      Why did she do it?
      Mohan had survived a car crash that killed everyone in the vehicle less than two years ago.
      But while her external injuries had healed, the emotional trauma may have left her with a condition known as “Survivor's Guilt”.
      And it probably led her to make the decision to take fate into her own hands.
      On May 18, the 38 year old woman lay on her martial bed and placed a plastic bag over her head and breathed her last.
      Forensic pathologist Dr Valery Alexandrov concluded that there were no signs of foul play involved in the death of Mohan, and that she died of acute oxygen deprivation due to obstruction of the upper airways by the plastic bags put over her face. 
      “There was not the slighted evidence of an altercation. Her clothing was in perfect order. She was wearing a delicate silk blouse which could have been easily torn, but it was not. Even her fingernails were in perfect condition. Nothing at all to suggest foul play”, Alexandrov had told the Express.
      Psychologist Dr Varma Deyalsingh said that Survivor's Guilt can develop when those suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) seek to connect with those who died.
      “People ask why do they have Survivor's Guilt? It seems it's because it is preferable to blame ourselves for things outside of our control than to accept our situation for which we are completely helpless. Survivor's Guilt is also a way to express the connection with those who have died. It's a method of trying to keep them alive in your mind because of guilty feelings since you survived”.
      She was happy
      Mohan's husband, Davenand Rampersad told the Express that his wife was a happy woman, but she struggled emotionally after the car crash on November 25, 2015. 
      Mohan was a passenger in a car which collided head-on into a ten wheeler truck that day. 
      Taxi driver Anthony Marcano, 54, and passengers Felecia Ali, 41, and Sherwin Constantine, 54, died almost instantly.
      Rampersad said his wife remembered nothing of how the crash happened, only that she woke up in a hospital bed with her two legs broken, ribs cracked, bruises and lacerations.
      “The accident had a hold on her. She was not the same afterwards. She was depressed knowing that she too could have died. She was depressed because with her injuries she couldn't move for a while. She was very sad for those who died (in the crash), especially Mr Constantine since that was her friend from church. I believe she was sitting next to him in the taxi”, he said. “She said if she had died in the accident she would not have minded. But I used to tell her she shouldn't feel that way, that she should have been grateful that she was the only survivor”.
      Deyalsingh said that Mohan may have been experiencing emotional conflict.
      “If a close friend or family member died in that crash that is a factor that come into play. There are two conflicting emotions – feeling happy that you survived , and then guilty that the others did not. Once you have two conflicting emotions it is like a tug of war in your brain and that could lead to problems”, said Deyalsingh.
      Acute stress
      The psychologist said that such stress could lead to a disorder known as Acute Stress Disorder (ASD). “This is where the person would have nightmares and relive the event. Sometimes they are numb, sometimes they can't go near cars, or a certain area. After a month if the person is still having flashbacks then ASD is labelled Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD)”, said Deyalsingh. “We find that people suffering from PTSD have a lot of intrusive thoughts where they relive the traumatic event over and over during the day. There may have been a pre-existing problem of depression, and when something else happens they feel overwhelmed”.
      Rampersad said while his wife's outward appearance was the same following the fatal crash, something has changed on the inside.
      Her smile which attracted him more than seven years before at a convention of Jehovah Witnesses at the Oval in Port of Spain had disappeared.
      The couple was married for five years, and according to Rampersad's mother, Radica Rampersad, “he took his time to get married”.
      Rampersad said after the crash, his wife was warded at hospital for three months, then stayed at her family's home at Aranguez.
      He would often make the journey from Chrysosthom Trace in Mayaro to Aranguez to be at her side.
      After a year and a half she moved back to their marital home.
      Rampersad said that the crash left his wife with a fear of “big trucks”, but he talked her all the way through on their way back to their home.
      But as time passed and he would find her crying, Rampersad knew his wife needed help.
      “If I see her crying and tried to talk to her she would push me away, said 'to leave her alone',” he said. “I asked her if she wanted to get professional help and she said 'no'. I asked her sister to talk to her about it. But it didn't happen. But we were doing counselling in church”.
      Deyalsingh advised that there are free psychological clinics at health centres, hospitals, private institutions that people can access across the country.
      He said that there is also the Community Mental Health and Wellness Clinics at Port of Spain and Barataria where people can seek help following traumatic events.
      Trinidad Express
    • By Bible Speaks
      THE HOPE OF THE RESURRECTION 
      The devil can not prevent the resurrection of those in Jehovah's memory. 
      16 "At that time those who fear Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance was written before himfor those fearing Jehovah and for those meditating on his name. (Mal 3:16)
      28 "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice"
      29 "and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment." (John 6:28,29)
      15 "And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous."      (Acts 24:15)
       

    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
    • By Bible Speaks
      "The last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing."– 1 Cor.15:26
      Perfected mankind will then stand before Jehovah as fully approved for everlasting life. jw.org

      IMG_0719.mov
      Tap screen for sound ? 
    • By admin
      Wanna kill yourself? Imagine this. You come home from school one day. You’ve had yet another horrible day. You’re just ready to give up. So you go to your room, close the door, and take out that suicide note you’ve written and rewritten over and over and over You take out those razor blades, and cut for the very last time. You grab that bottle of pills and take them all. Laying down, holding the letter to your chest, you close your eyes for the very last time. A few hours later, your little brother knocks on your door to come tell you dinners ready. You don’t answer, so he walks in. All he sees is you laying on your bed, so he thinks you’re asleep. He tells your mom this. Your mom goes to your room to wake you up. She notices something is odd. She grabs the paper in your hand and reads it. Sobbing, she tries to wake you up. She’s screaming your name. Your brother, so confused, runs to go tell Dad that “Mommy is crying and sissy won’t wake up.” Your dad runs to your room. He looks at your mom, crying, holding the letter to her chest, sitting next to your lifeless body. It hits him, what’s going on, and he screams. He screams and throws something at the wall. And then, falling to his knees, he starts to cry. Your mom crawls over to him, and they sit there, holding each other, crying. The next day at school, there’s an announcement. The principal tells everyone about your suicide. It takes a few seconds for it to sink in, and once it does, everyone goes silent. Everyone blames themselves. Your teachers think they were too hard on you. Those mean popular girls, they think of all the things they’ve said to you. That boy that used to tease you and call you names, he can’t help but hate himself for never telling you how beautiful you really are. Your ex boyfriend, the one that you told everything to, that broke up with you.. He can’t handle it. He breaks down and starts crying, and runs out of the school. Your friends? They’re sobbing too, wondering how they could never see that anything was wrong, wishing they could have helped you before it was too late. And your best friend? She’s in shock. She can’t believe it. She knew what you were going through, but she never thought it would get that bad… Bad enough for you to end it. She can’t cry, she can’t feel anything. She stands up, walks out of the classroom, and just sinks to the floor. Shaking, screaming, but no tears coming out. It’s a few days later, at your funeral. The whole town came. Everyone knew you, that girl with the bright smile and bubbly personality. The one that was always there for them, the shoulder to cry on. Lots of people talk about all the good memories they had with you, there were a lot. Everyone’s crying, your little brother still doesn’t know you killed yourself, he’s too young. Your parents just said you died. It hurts him, a lot. You were his big sister, you were supposed to always be there for him. Your best friend, she stays strong through the entire service, but as soon as they start lowering your casket into the ground, she just loses it. She cries and cries and doesn’t stop for days. It’s two years later. Your teachers all quit their job. Those mean girls have eating disorders now. That boy that used to tease you cuts himself. Your ex boyfriend doesn’t know how to love anymore and just sleeps around with girls. Your friends all go into depression. Your best friend? She tried to kill herself. She didn’t succeed like you did, but she tried…your brother? He finally found out the truth about your death. He self harms, he cries at night, he does exactly what you did for years leading up to your suicide. Your parents? Their marriage fell apart. Your dad became a workaholic to distract himself from your death. Your mom got diagnosed with depression and just lays in bed all day. People care. You may not think so, but they do. Your choices don’t just effect you. They effect everyone. Don’t end your life, you have so much to live for. Things can’t get better if you give up. I’m here for absolutely anyone that needs to talk, no matter who you are. Even if we’ve NEVER talked before, I’m here for you. Let's see who actually read all of it.
      For anyone that feels this way ??
      Could 1 friend, please share? We are trying to demonstrate that someone's always listening.
      #SuicideAwareness 1-800-273-8255
    • By JayDubya
      When our brothers lose a loved one, we often say, 'at least we have the resurrection hope.'  This is true, however, the Bible refers to death as a 'sting'.   It hurts and it doesn't go away as quickly as a bee.   
      I lost two parents in 20 days- Two funerals in 30 days.  At least I have the resurrection hope.   

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    • Wouldn't a core doctrine be one in which we put "unwavering" faith. This is the whole reason I mention "core" or "key" doctrines. If we were to be killed unless we publicly renounced our faith in Jehovah God as the Creator, and Jesus Christ as the one through whom the Ransom comes, we should be willing to die for that doctrine. I would not be willing to die over my certainty that Jesus was only using hyperbole when he said that the men of Sodom would do better in a resurrection of the unrighteous on Judgment Day, than persons in towns that rejected Jesus during his earthly ministry. (Only the most diabolical of inquisitors would ask such a question anyway. I think I would go for "theocratic war strategy. 😉 )
    • I like that. It's an excellent explanation of one of the points made in the day's text and commentary. Perhaps. And so were all the 1 year old babies destroyed in the Flood. And so were the 185,000 of Senacherib's troops. I used that one because it's one for which most of us would be the least surprised if we discovered that the WT changed the teaching again.  Not sure what you mean. I already believe that the primary core doctrine is God's value through his Son's ransom sacrifice. Other doctrines are also just as necessary, though.  There actually is a contradiction between the Bible and AD 1914. And we don't need any independent understanding not supported by Scripture, such as the independent understanding of John Aquila Brown, or more specifically, that of Nelson H Barbour, neither of which were supported by Scripture. It should ALWAYS be the exploit of any faithful Witness to uncover truth and try to resolve any contradictions that can be resolved by Scripture itself, not anything independent of Scriptural support.  On the matter of the 1914 doctrine, an easier explanation with human controversy --but no scriptural controversy-- has already been posted. Easier isn't proof that it's better, but it's definitely easier. Here it is: Jesus came to earth to preach about a God's Kingdom through Christ and give himself over to death as a perfect ransom for sin, to fulfill the Law, and SIT AT GOD'S RIGHT HAND and therefore RULES AS KING since the time of his resurrection in 33 CE. That's it. Simple. No contradictions with any Scripture. From that point on, in 33 CE he SITS AT GOD'S RIGHT HAND and therefore RULES AS KING ruling in the midst of enemies, including war, famine, sickness, and will continue ruling as king until God has put all enemies under his feet, including the last enemy: death.  The current belief in 1914 creates a contradiction with this very point, because we are currently forced to ignore 1 Cor 15:25, which indicates that "sitting at God's right hand" is the same as "ruling as King." Right now, our current teaching is that Jesus sat at God's right hand in 33, and THEN LATER began ruling as king in 1914. Paul says that Jesus began ruling as king WHEN he sat at God's right hand. I'm swapping them because they mean exactly the same thing to me. No difference. Doctrine means teaching. True but notice the words that Paul used instead of "sit at my right hand" here: (1 Corinthians 15:25) 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. Turns out that when a king sits on a throne, this is actually an expression meaning rule as king. Just like when we say that a man "sat on the throne" starting in AD 1066, for example. Turns out that a king does not have to stand up from a throne to begin ruling as king. Turns out that sitting on a throne is not a synonym for just waiting around. By that logic, Jesus is not even NOW ruling as king, because God has not yet put the last enemy Death beneath his feet. (1 Corinthians 15:25,26) 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.
    • If only you would stop quoting outside sources, and just be more basic with your comments, then i may understand them . Yes I understand 'if your throw out all the good, only the bad is left.  But the reverse is, if you only see the good, you are not being honest with yourself or others.  @Arauna is a case in point.  
    • @JW Insider Quote " The day's text is about the resurrection, and the commentary speaks of the importance of including this among our key doctrines, as if it might not have been "up there" with the rest. " That seems rather strange to me. But then they are getting short of things to say.  However, i would have thought every Christian, no matter what ever 'sect' or  pigeon hole you put them in, would definitely believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and put it up near the top of important beliefs.  However making Bible Facts, doctrines, seems unfair to God and to the Bible itself.  doctrine a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group.   It's as if the JW Org tries to 'own' such things. @TrueTomHarley quite often goes on about the things that the JW Org teaches. As if those things 'belonged to the JW Org'.  Whereas a lot of the same beliefs are held by thousands of people, and they not all being of the same organisation.     Quote " The Teaching about Christ's Kingdom -  Of course that final one might be a nod to "1914" as a key teaching, but it is worded here in such a way that no one could dismiss Christ's Kingdom as a key teaching. "   Now here we see a difference between Bible truth and JW doctrine.    Christ's Kingdom is Bible truth.   1914 is JW Org doctrine.   (This would bring us back to. Would a person be d/fed or 'watched' if they did not believe the 1914 doctrine?)    Matthew 22 v 44    ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet”’? So if Jesus was to sit at Gods right hand, until God had put Jesus' enemies beneath Jesus' feet.  Then Jesus could not have had the power to do it himself. Therefore surely Jesus was not ruling as King immediately ?    As for 1914, we know that no one of the Bible Students or JW leaders, were or are inspired of Holy Spirit. So maybe 1914 is just another guess or misuse of scriptures.    What is your view of the difference between 'Core doctrines' and Key teachings ?    And you seem to keep swapping expressions from Core doctrines, to Core teachings, to Key teachings.  Can you explain the difference please ?    
    • I confess that I am falling well short of the 100 times a day that I ought. I ask your forgiveness. Human limitations is the only excuse I have to offer. If you negate the upside, then all there is left to look at is the downside, and that is the case with many here.  I keep coming back to a line from The Scarlet Letter: “It is remarkable, that persons who speculate the most boldly often conform with the most perfect quietude to the external regulations of society.” Nobody speculates more boldly, departing from the herd-like thinking of this world, than Jehovah’s Witnesses. True to that Hawthorn line, they have no difficulty conforming to the “external regulations of their society.” Though Hawthorn does not say it, the reverse is also true. Those who cannot “conform to the external regulations of that society” and so leave it, perhaps guys like Shiwiiiii, are the most non-bold thinkers of all. They are individualistic in superfluous ways, but conformist in all the ways that matter.
    • Perhaps you are reading something into the book of Jude that I haven't been able to see. To me, the reason for the letter was this: Jude 4 I say this because some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches, saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives. This was similar to the problem in Corinth, where certain brothers were PROUD that they could put up with a notorious case of incest, due to a misunderstanding and misuse of "undeserved kindness." (1 Corinthians 5:1, 2) . . .Actually sexual immorality is reported among you, and such immorality as is not even found among the nations—of a man living with his father’s wife. 2 And are you proud of it? Should you not rather mourn, so that the man who committed this deed should be taken away from your midst? Such persons who used the idea of forgiveness, mercy, and undeserved kindness (grace), as an excuse for loose/brazen conduct were not blowing the whistle on wrongdoing, but were PROMOTING wrongdoing. It was the same as dismissing and speaking abusively against things that Jesus himself had said to "prove false to our only owner and Lord, Jesus Christ." Michael wouldn't even speak abusively of the Devil and yet these people are going to go further than that and think it's OK to speak abusively of Jesus and the angels? It's also possible that the leaders (elders) are considered the "glorious ones" but this makes less sense to me. Perhaps a topic for further discussion?
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