All Eight Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses members are now individually named on two New York Child Victims Act case documents

[Anna]

18 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

So no one in the JW Org is appointed by Holy Spirit.

That's not what I said.

18 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

No one in the JW Org is Inspired of Holy Spirit.

And yes, that's true. The last people who were inspired were Bible writers.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

12 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

That is the longest bit of self righteous advertising i have ever read on here. In fact it was so boring that i skipped lots.  

Go back and read what you missed. It is the most valuable material here. 

And nobody, nobody, but nobody who knows me personally thinks me “self-righteous.”

Ask @Witness, who said she loves me so (not inappropriately—it was a manner of speaking) following a recent post. Even though she thinks I drink far too much of the “kooklaid.” Even though we have had some fearsome tussles. Even though she thinks me deluded as can be

But she does not think me self-righteous. Nobody does. 

Of course, Alan does. But he is so full of insults for anyone not coming around to his point of view that it doesn’t count.

[AlanF]

Vic Vomidog said:
     

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    17 hours ago, AlanF said:

    Sure. Call the number I gave you, and leave your PayPal contact with my secretary. Once that's done I'll request a payment from you for whatever you tell my secretary your information is worth.

I’m sorry to be troublesome. Please excuse my asking, but is your secretary a male or a female?

 

He/she seems to be in-between. I really can't tell, and these days it's impolite to ask. You'll have to decide for yourself.

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I am not really good with girls. I get very nervous around them, and I am nervous already thinking about passing along some of the hot information that would really expose  these jerks.

Well, I think that an in-between would be pretty thick skinned.

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As I get older I look at myself in the mirror and I don’t like what I see. I have to admit that I am very repressed sexually, and this is not easy for a middle-aged man to admit, even anonymously. It is their fault. I wish I had gone to college. I wanted to when I was younger.

It's never too late to fix all that.

[TrueTomHarley]

48 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

So no one in the JW Org is appointed by Holy Spirit. No one in the JW Org is Inspired of Holy Spirit.

This is too juvenile. If you appoint someone who turns out to be a clunker, you say, “Guess that wasn’t so inspired after all,” and let that be the end of it. I wrote it up here:

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/08/the-loaded-words-infallible-inspired-and-perfect.html

There are people here who are like children that learn that there is no Santa Claus, and so they resolve to never ever celebrate Christmas again. Adults, however, do not cease celebrating for this reason—they fall back to the “greater meaning” of Christmas, and so forth. They realize that Christmas is much bigger than Santa Claus—he is something only for children.

Indeed, if the only problem with Christmas was that there is no Santa Claus, then we would be celebrating the day, some of us. Some would. Some wouldn’t.

In this case, the “no Santa Claus” is learning that the GB is made up of men who can make mistakes. Most never doubted that in the first place. But those who did and who truly love God and the core beliefs that identify Jehovah’s Witnesses and Jehovah’s Witnesses alone manage to make the adjustment without undo fuss, if only by reiterating the words of Peter: “To whom else shall we go?” Who else thinks the thoughts and does the deeds of Jehovah’s Witnesses?

[AlanF]

Anna said:
     

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    1 hour ago, AlanF said:

    Anna, you're sidestepping my question. I asked you if you think that God would appoint a man such as Greenlees. Not whether fallible men would appoint him.

I would have liked to merge this with my reply above, but had to go away and do something. Anyway, as I've already shown, I did not side step your question but I answered directly that I do not think God would appoint a man such as Greenlees:

        23 hours ago, AlanF said:

        Do you really think that God would appoint a homosexual pedophile to the Governing Body of his organization?

    Of course I don't think that.

 

So you don't think that God appoints any GB members. Good for you! If God did not appoint Greenlees, then he and the rest of them were appointed by fallible men -- a position considered apostate by the Governing Body and its minions.
 

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    1 hour ago, AlanF said:

    You've argued that, even though the Society claims "appointment by holy spirit", that's not actually what happens. Rather, imperfect men make appointments, and then JWs pretend that holy spirit did it.

Like I said:

    The appointment, as all appointments are, was based on qualifications outlined in 1Timothy 3:1-7.

The process by which holy spirit "appoints" is through that scripture.

 

But that all depends on whether the men applying the scriptures do so perfectly. If they do not, then holy spirit could not have appointed the man.

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Since JWS believe the Bible is inspired of God by means of holy spirit, then if one works along with the scriptures, one is working along with the holy spirit. Obviously in the case under discussion, holy spirit could not have appointed this man because unbeknown to those making the decision, he did not qualify. Which also answers your other question

It does not. All your rationalizations are mere special pleading.
     

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    1 hour ago, AlanF said:

    And what about God's viewing his heart? Was God ever fooled by an outward appearance of repentance?

Obviously it was not God but men who were fooled.

 

Then God had nothing to do with Greenlees' appointment to the GB or anything else. By extension, neither does he have anything to do with appointing any other JW elders -- contrary to the Society's claims.
     

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    1 hour ago, AlanF said:

    But Greenlees never stopped

Obviously. However I very much doubt that someone would have purposefully employed a pedophile.

 

Not as such, but they would certainly have been inclined to ignore Greenlees' behavior if they knew about it. And things like obvious homosexuality are not things easily ignored.
And of course, according to Watchtower doctrine, anyone not fully qualified to be a proper elder would not be appointed, because holy spirit would see to it.
     

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    1 hour ago, AlanF said:

    There are many instances where a molester known to some elders has been put back into some position of responsibility in some congregation. Barbara Anderson has a list of those known to her.

I am sure she has, and hopefully she has given that list to the Police.

 

Of course. And to appropriate lawyers.
     

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    1 hour ago, AlanF said:

    JWs only pretend that the Bible is such a template. When push comes to shove, most JWs will push the Bible aside when Watchtower tradition or practice gets in the way. Do you want examples from my personal dealings with them?

Sure

 

Ok, here's a good one.

Consider the Bible passage at Luke 21:5-8:

<< 5 Later, when some were speaking about the temple, how it was adorned with fine stones and dedicated things, 6 he said: “As for these things that you now see, the days will come when not a stone will be left upon a stone and not be thrown down.” 7 Then they questioned him, saying: “Teacher, when will these things actually be, and what will be the sign when these things are to occur?” 8 He said: “Look out that you are not misled, for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time is near.’ Do not go after them. >>

The important part here is verse 8. According to most Bible commentaries, and the Society itself, the phrase 'I am he' means "I am someone important, someone to be listened to, someone with authority from Jesus and God to represent them". That obviously includes JW leaders since they directly claim to be Jehovah's representatives. The next part of the verse mentions such people as saying ‘The due time is near’ which obviously refers back to the time when "these things are to occur". Jesus, then, was warning his listeners that if they hear such persons claiming to represent God, and claiming that the due time for 'the end' is near, they should not go after them. Since this perfectly describes what JW leaders have done throughout their history and continue to do, it is obvious that Jesus himself said not to follow them.

In 1994 I had a phone conversation with GB member Albert Schroeder about his failure to follow up on some things he had promised to do. After he said he was reneging on his promise, I decided to challenge him with a question about Luke 21:5-8. I asked him, "What do you think that passage means?" He got out his NWT and read it out loud. After finishing verse 8, he was unable to speak. After a minute or so, I said, "Well? What does this mean with respect to applying it to JW teaching about the end?" After another two minutes or so of dead silence, he said, "It can't apply to us, because we're God's people!" Of course, you can imagine my reaction.

In 2009 I found myself living temporarily in Utah, in Mormon country. One Saturday morning a lone JW, a man of about 70, came to our door. After some pleasantries where we identified ourselves as ex-JWs, I challenged him with Luke 21:5-8 and asked him the same thing I did with Schroeder. He was silent for a bit, and then said that he understood what the passage meant, so I asked him if he intended to remain a JW, given that his Lord Jesus Christ specifically said "do not follow them". He said that he had been a JW all his life and was too old to change. Perfectly understandable, of course, but also perfectly unchristian.

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    1 hour ago, AlanF said:

    It appears that you know that Greenlees was a homosexual child molester for many years, including when he was appointed a Watchtower Society Director in 1964, which in turn implies that he was such for many years before that. Just when in the years between his youth and his appointment to the GB in 1971 had he "been made clean"?

I don't know much about him, only from what you and JWI said.

 

Obviously there is no point in his latter years where he had "been made clean".
     

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    1 hour ago, AlanF said:

    Since this issue became publicly known in 2002 with the NBC Dateline and Panorama programs,

That's hardly and inspiration for reform.  I have seen them. Full of loaded language and sensationalism.

 

Shows like those are not intended to be scholarly documentaries but to motivate people to act. And that's what they did.

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However, the ARC was a different kettle of fish.

Yes, and the people who helped spark all that were partly motivated by those TV presentations.
 

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    1 hour ago, AlanF said:

    Some of those are the subject of the Zalkin lawsuits. In most coverup cases that I'm aware of, the elders took it upon themselves to cover up, or were directed to cover up by the Service Department.

I am sure there have been coverups. But I am sure you know cases are very complex. I have read two court transcripts (two different cases) each several thousand pages long. So I know what I am talking about.

 

Your point? Complexity is irrelevant to the criminal coverups.
     

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    1 hour ago, AlanF said:

    And of course, you've clearly admitted that the Society's claim that elders are appointed by holy spirit is a lie.

No, I did not say it was a lie. It's you, you are not comprehending the process.

 

I perfectly well understand the process. God and holy spirit have nothing to do with it. JWs merely pretend they do.

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Those days of tongues of fire are long gone, with all the other outward manifestations of miracles etc.

But the Society makes no claims about such things.

What do you think JW leaders mean when they say that Jehovah has appointed them as his anointed representatives? Merely that their predecessors read the Bible and decided to appoint them? I could appoint myself by that process, but would it be a valid appointment? Of course not, and by the same token JW leaders appointing other JW leaders is NOT in any sense "appointment by holy spirit".

[TrueTomHarley]

40 minutes ago, AlanF said:

Your point? Complexity is irrelevant to the criminal coverups.
     

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    1 hour ago, AlanF said:

    And of course, you've clearly admitted that the Society's claim that elders are appointed by holy spirit is a lie.

No, I did not say it was a lie. It's you, you are not comprehending the process.

 

Read more  

I perfectly well understand the process. God and holy spirit have nothing to do with it. JWs merely pretend they do.

Is this long comment what it looks like? Is this fellow really doing lengthy commentary on the greatest scholar that he can envision—himself?

He quotes himself and provides edifying commentary how many times? Count em—one, two, three, four.......TEN!

It’s no wonder nobody likes to see him come around. Even those who agree with him can’t possibly pat him on the back as much as he does himself.

[AlanF]

TrueTomHarley said:
     

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    1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

    So no one in the JW Org is appointed by Holy Spirit. No one in the JW Org is Inspired of Holy Spirit.

This is too juvenile. If you appoint someone who turns out to be a clunker, you say, “Guess that wasn’t so inspired after all,” and let that be the end of it.

 

Such an infantile rejoinder! You continue confirming that you're a real dummie. But since you suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect you don't know it.

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I wrote it up here:

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/08/the-loaded-words-infallible-inspired-and-perfect.html

 

LOL! This ridiculous bit of special pleading starts off, in its very first sentence, with this bit of nonsense:

<< It is revealing to me that those who taunt JWs endlessly over just how “inspired” are the ones at the helm today seem to take for granted that there should be ones who are that way. >>

It only gets worse from this simple-minded straw man.

The fact is that no critics of the JWs expect that there ought to be inspired people at the helm. Quite the contrary. Many critics, like Raymond Franz, clearly argued that no one can be inspired today, and that is one reason JW leaders should not make that claim, or make the claim that they have been appointed by holy spirit as Jehovah's representatives.

It is JW leaders themselves who claim or have claimed direct inspiration, or 'guidance' that is indistinguishable from plenary inspiration. J. F. Rutherford claimed that angels magically 'downloaded' information into his head. And on and on.

The fact that JW leaders disfellowship for 'apostasy' anyone who contradicts their teaching or denies that they are God's representatives proves that they really do claim inspiration.

The rest of your 'argumentation' is too childish to comment on.

[TrueTomHarley]

25 minutes ago, AlanF said:

It only gets worse from this simple-minded straw man.

“This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved.”

This includes straw men. Even them you cannot resist insulting!

29 minutes ago, AlanF said:

JW leaders themselves who claim or have claimed direct inspiration,

They changed that

They do change things and are very open about it. The only one getting exorcized over it is you. It is the topic of yesterday’s daily text.

They are running a show that no one else even attempts to  They adjust things that don’t work out as anticipated.

32 minutes ago, AlanF said:

The rest of your 'argumentation' is too childish to comment on.

There is nothing that you do not comment on at the most absurd and tiresome length.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

28 minutes ago, AlanF said:

Such an infantile rejoinder! You continue confirming that you're a real dummie. But since you suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect you don't know it.

I had to look that one up ... I had never heard the term before .... but my fascination with Dilbert Cartoons indicates that I am familiar with the phenomenon.

Why Do Stupid People Not Realize They Are Stupid_.mp4

[JW Insider]

50 minutes ago, AlanF said:

The fact is that no critics of the JWs expect that there ought to be inspired people at the helm.

On this forum, we have seen this critique a few times. It was clearly claimed by @JOHN BUTLER, who sadly was "DF'd" from the forum. It is similar to what has been said by @4Jah2me more recently, and @Witness, too.

The idea is that if Jesus had in mind an ongoing feeding program from an appointed "faithful and discreet slave" where these teachers of the kingdom would teach things both old and new, then they should be inspired in the sense of having something like a "double portion of Jehovah's spirit." This does not mean "inspired" in the same sense as "apostolic succession" but aliases associated with @AllenSmith-38 have argued for something very close to "apostolic succession" or at least "apostolic precedence."

I think that TTH's blog was actually dealing with a real question about an idea that the GB should really be inspired, even infallible, and that they should produce "perfect" food, which of course, they don't claim to do.

[ASF-37]

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

erhaps you have right that my conduct is boring, but this Topic is about one and same subject. I see my participation as something that is inside this topic.  

Srecko,

The “question” I asked, how many other religious websites do you personally go into on a daily basis to argue child abuse?

[TrueTomHarley]

9 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I had to look that one up ... I had never heard the term before.

That was the point—to demonstrate that he knows things others do not.