All Eight Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses members are now individually named on two New York Child Victims Act case documents

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

Did God allow David to build His temple? hmm!

If i remembered conversation between them, David already made plans, ordered place for Temple and collecting "money" for project and continue with that despite changed circumstances. As i see this, David made act of obeying JHVH words how Solomon is better choice to be builder of Temple.

We can only guess what would happened if David decide to build Temple despite God's will. JHVH had various methods of practice when dealing with human disobeying. Sometimes He killed them all, sometimes leave them to do what ever they want. :))

[AlanF]

JW Insider said:

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    34 minutes ago, AlanF said:

    No, it's deliberate. Need I quote some Watchtower publications to prove it?

I think it's a bit strong to claim you can prove someone's motive. There might be "evidence," but "proof"? I doubt it!

 

Decades of WTS writers hammering on a theme is plenty of proof.

Can you really imagine that decades of hammering is "inadvertant"?

This article, written a quarter century ago, shows how JW leaders have consistently declared them themselves prophets appointed by Jehovah:

https://critiquesonthewatchtower.org/old-articles/2006/02/part-4-wts-says-it-is-prophet-and.html

Here are some quotes from jwfacts.com ( https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/directed-by-holy-spirit.php 😞

<<
    “Under the guidance of his holy spirit and on the basis of his Word of truth, Jehovah provides what is needed so that all of God's people may be "fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought" and remain "stabilized in the faith." (1 Cor. 1:10; Col. 2:6, 7) Surely we are grateful for Jehovah's spiritual provisions in these last days.” Kingdom Ministry Sep 2007 p.3 US Edition

    "They do not claim that this slave class is infallible, but they do view it as the one channel that the Lord is using during the last days of this system of things." Proclaimers p.626
>>

The latter is deliberate doublespeak. How can the Lord be using (guiding and directing) a "slave class" that might or might not be following direction? How can followers know? Why do admittedly fallible men declare that any who disagree are wicked apostates unless they really believed that they're speaking in God's name?

<<
    "When the time comes to clarify a spiritual matter in our day, holy spirit helps responsible representatives of the faithful and discreet slave at world headquarters to discern deep truths that were not previously understood." Watchtower 2010 Jul 15 pp.22-23

>>

That is a direct claim of inspiration.

<<

    "Third, holy spirit is at work in bringing Bible truths to light." Watchtower 2010 Apr 15 p.10 Holy Spirits Role in the Outworking of Jehovahs Purpose

    "Consider, too, the fact that Jehovah's organization alone, in all the earth, is directed by God's holy spirit or active force. (Zech. 4:6) Only this organization functions for Jehovah's purpose and to his praise. To it alone God's Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book." Watchtower 1973 Jul 1 p.402

    "In 1942 the "faithful and discreet slave" guided by Jehovah's unerring spirit made known that the democracies would win World War II and that there would be a United Nations organization set up." Watchtower 1960 Jul 15 p.444

    "The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men. No man's opinion is expressed in The Watchtower. God feeds his own people, and surely God uses those who love and serve him according to his own will." Watchtower 1931 Nov 1 p.327

    "It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the "slave" as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision." Watchtower 1957 Jun 15 p.370
>>

For a lot more, read the above links.

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 34 minutes ago, AlanF said:

    That is entirely at odds with decades of Watchtower doctrine.

Many changes made have been entirely at odds with decades of WT doctrine,

 

True, but what actual evidence -- written or oral teaching -- can you or Anna come up with to justify her claim that "GB fallibility" is current teaching and that decades of "GB is guided and directed by holy spirit", as in the above quotes, has been jettisoned?

And have you any evidence that disfellowshipping for apostasy, as detailed in my above post, has been jettisoned or even toned down?

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and this has more often than not been a good thing, both on doctrinal issues and in practices and procedures.

True, but the fact that WTS writers invariably downplay the fact that these changes prove that their overall claim of "spirit-direction" is false proves that they have always deceived the JW community about the source of these false teachings -- their own "dreams and guesses".

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There is a bit less focus on chronology,

Not really. Perhaps they don't talk about it as much as 25 years ago, but it still forms the basis for the 1914 teaching, and hence, the GB's claim of spiritual authority.

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much less focus on classes and types and antitypes,

Yes, that was a stupid attitude originated by Rutherford and continued by old Freddie.

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and I think that some of this interpretation of the GB's motive comes from the fact that they are true believers in the end-time scenario they have been recently depicting.

Which belief is nonsensical, in view of the facts of history. Such as the fact that our population explosion disproves the entire 1914 "end times" scenario. Which facts the GB and its minions refuse even to think about.

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Therefore they can become a bit paternalistic and protective, which comes across as "list and obey." I don't think it's quite as "ulterior" as you keep saying.

Sure it is. Their motives obviously have a large component of self interest. Such self interest, such as maintaining a retirement home in Warwick and their place at the top of the JW cult, can hardly be discounted. The way Jeffrey Jackson, before the ARC commission, lied about the GB's position in Watchtower doctrine, is positive proof of their bad motives, because it takes careful thought to formulate a lie like that -- a lie that is subtle enough to fool some rank and file JWs and the ARC, but not anyone who actually knows JW doctrine.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Is JW Insider actually admitting to be an Elder here ? 

No. I voluntarily stepped down years ago primarily over the college issue (going to and sending my children to college). It's not mandatory to step down, by the way. Although some congregations might see it this way. I'm fine how things are. (I spend time on sites like this and I have trouble with a couple of doctrines.) I don't think any current elder would be on a site like this and admit their specific issues with any doctrines. I have no idea who the administrators or moderators or Librarian is.

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Some of you guys tell stories of working with members of the GB and in the Writing Dept etc... . So you are not just ordinary 'run of the mill' JW's. A person doesn't go from being a 'member of a congregation' to being assistant to the GB.

Within weeks of starting at Brooklyn Bethel in 1976 I was assigned to the Art Department. I was really only an average artist (good at landscapes, lousy at portraits). I had lots of small projects, but only a couple of the big ones. So I always volunteered for any research assignments, which I really loved. (e.g., What did an anvil look like in the first century? What armor and weapons would a Philistine have? What did a rich man's house look like? What did a poor man's house look like?" What did a 1st century fishing boat look like?) 

This soon turned into a couple of requests from ONE member of the GB who asked me if I would look up information for some of his projects. This turned into a lot of research projects. I continued working for him until 1982.

But anyone, could be assigned to work directly with members of the GB. Bethel assignments seemed a lot more random than most people realize. You don't have to be qualified to get a good assignment, and people who were very qualified for a specific assignment often got something completely different. Bethel leadership was actually quite proud of this method of assignment and Sydlik often made the point to new personnel that a brilliant scientist might be assigned to clean toilets. It was a method of teaching humility. (In reality I never saw anything like that, although menial assignments would be given to some as punishment/humiliation. There were only a couple of these punishments going on while I was there. Seemed to be pretty rare.)

[AlanF]

It's pretty clear that no one on this forum is willing or able to defend their belief in the God of the Bible against my argument that logically, he cannot exist.

Without a solid foundation, belief in everything else in the Bible is valueless.

Here's a humorous video that further illustrates what I'm talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAQ1GJeYK0A

[TrueTomHarley]

6 hours ago, AlanF said:

That's because you don't think clearly and deeply.

Oh, give me a break, you pompous pillar of pettiness! I think far more deeply than you.

You have a incredibly broad knowledge of a certain aspect of a narrow topic. Beyond that, I wonder if you know anything at all.

I bring to the table free-ranging, out-of-the-box thinking on a variety of topics. You bring strait-jacketed, legalistic thinking about one.

I bring wit, imagination, and humor in all its varieties—self-deprecating humor as well as the kind of humor where you make fun of yourself.

You bring niggling, blustering nastiness, insolence, and an astounding capacity to insult all creatures great and small with childish taunts.

You are a precocious, smart, and mean-spirited adolescent who finds himself in the body of an adult and thus imagines he is one.

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

 

@JW Insider  But WE don't ignore ...   Is JW Insider actually admitting to be an Elder here ? 

You don’t want to know just what high position he occupies.

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

And @The Librarian  whom Mr Harley refers to as 'she' and 'the old hen', has actually admitted to being a Man, I believe. So probably another Elder.

A he who is characterized as a she. If I were you, I would ask no further questions.

4 hours ago, AlanF said:

And of course, none of them know how much Klein hated Rutherford.

Of course! That’s why he repeatedly said just the opposite in his life experiences.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Oh, I dunno .......

...reminds me of two guys whizzing off the side of a bridge ,...

First says "Wow, that water is cold!"

Second one says "Yeah, and deep!!"

I would probably have to wear high-top farm boots if I was around either one of you.
 

 

 

[Arauna]

2 hours ago, AlanF said:

Bible against my argument that logically, he cannot exist.

I can take you a bet you are not really good at math - and do not really understand the mechanisms within the cell and mutation.  If you really understood you would not make such a statement.   You are forgiven.

... I suggest you investigate BOTH sides of the argument.  You seem to be so cock-sure like your buddy Mr Dawkins.....you only have " faith" in what you believe because most evolutionists who are honest declare they are not sure either.

I always watch Dawkins'  debates with Christian philosophers  and he has looked really silly on most of them- he is not really a deep thinker.  This is why he now only goes on shows where he talks only with other  atheists.

The best he said was :  life was seeded by aliens.   

I don't waste my time on people who already think they have all the answers.

If you hit the jackpot more than 10 times in a row to have a BIg positive outcome (to win a million to get on top of the pile) - you will start to wonder if the system was rigged in your favour......  Now imagine - you hit the jackpot with every small mutation (millions every second) for 500 billion years......

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

voluntarily stepped down years ago

You have my respect. A man should know when to do the right thing. Of course you would be of greater assistance if you did take on the responsibilities again.

 

[Vic Vomidog]

6 hours ago, AlanF said:

Wrong as usual. You didn't see his face as he hung his head for ten seconds.

Forgive me, Alan, but I may have to side with TTH on this one, even though I hate him (because he is a jerk and not as smart as you).

You remember how all the brothers used to spy on each other to make sure nobody was thinking non-approved thoughts. Benner was wearing a wire that day. And a hidden camera. 

I know this because it was my job to clean the film archives, and I used to watch the films instead. You have to walk on the floor—not eat lunch off it—I mean, my god!! these people are nuts about cleaning! I haven’t washed since I left the place. So there was plenty of time to get the place passable and then goof off.

I found your video, we reviewed it many times, and it did not seen to me that Benner hung his head in shame. It looked more like dismay to me. Also, the mike picked up his very faint muttering, “what a pompous pillar of pettiness!” as he was exiting the room.

7 hours ago, Anna said:

In another instance; I rattled one sister's cage (it means irritated her) 

You may think that you can explain this away, but when I was in Bethel they kept sisters in cages, also brothers—all you had to do was not clap at the videos that nobody ever clapped at until a year or two ago, and you would be put in a cage for punishment.

Children were kept in cages, too, and forced to recite the underlined answered to questions parrotlike. If they were lucky, they might be given a cracker afterwards. 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

If its not the pompous pillars of pettiness, it's the pusillanimous pussyfooting pinkos.

As Arauna indicated, It's all a matter of having here ... a failure, ah ... to communicate.

Untitled.mp4

[Arauna]

10 hours ago, AlanF said:

many languages don't distinguish capitals from lowercase in proper names.

I can read two languages that have no capital letters at all!  Arabic and Georgian (Sakartvelo). 

[AlanF]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Oh, give me a break, you pompous pillar of pettiness! I think far more deeply than you.

You have a incredibly broad knowledge of a certain aspect of a narrow topic. Beyond that, I wonder if you know anything at all.

I bring to the table free-ranging, out-of-the-box thinking on a variety of topics. You bring strait-jacketed, legalistic thinking about one.

I bring wit, imagination, and humor in all its varieties—self-deprecating humor as well as the kind of humor where you make fun of yourself.

Dunning-Kruger is mighty in this one.

Have you been taking lessons from your idol Donald Trump?

[Arauna]

10 hours ago, AlanF said:

many cases the context shows that blurring the distinction between "W" and "w" is deliberate. Old timers certainly know the difference.

Arguments about capital letters  - claiming it was calculated to mislead?   Again an accusation about motives....